Sabbath Keeping: Mandated for Whom? A Question from a Heretical Bapt

[JawgeFromJawja]

Christ said that those who disregard even the least of God's commandments and so teach others - will be considered least by those in the kingdom of heaven.

Paul said "What matters is keeping the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:18

Originally Posted By: George

Do not offend those of disparate faith, because they, too, have strong reasons for their faith: they too have had prayers answered by God Himself. They, too have seen miracles, and they have seen the hand of God working in their lives. I know this without the least shadow of a doubt, because I have personally witnessed it in others’ lives, and in my own life, particularly my professional life.

Paul said that God has winked at the former times of ignorance but now calls all men everywhere to repent.

Bob, you are in fact saying that anyone who faithfully studies The Bible and who does not It interpret the same way you do is doomed.

I have repeatedly asked for specific Scriptural mandates that Gentiles keep the Sabbath. No one on this forum has Scripturally shown such a mandate. Instead, any and all verses even remotely mentioning the Sabbath is dutifully pasted with an interpretation not even close to the intent of the passage.

You say God has quit winking? Then God help us, all of mankind - we are all doomed. I know nobody who does not break multiple Commandments. This is an observation, not a judgement: I try to honor Jesus at least to the extent of not judging others. Actually, silently observing people who violate the very laws they claim to espouse is a source of amusement and reassurance to me. Amusing, yes, for nobody walks the straight and narrow without a little wobbling and straying. Those who pipe their own virtues the loudest or protest the most frequently that they have some stated or obscure license to ignore their own sins are those who wobble and stray the most. I keep my mouth shut about such observations, which are also reassuring in that I see that nobody is free from current sin: all of us are in the same type boat.

Bob, I do not believe that all of mankind is going to Hell or the fiery pit or Sheol or whatever in a leaky lifeboat. I have faith in God as a Being of unlimited love and mercy as well as justice. God is infinite in all of His qualities, and until you show knowledge that you realize such, then I have to conclude you do not know God as well as I know Him.

Unless you are a singularity among mankind, you, too, break the very commandments that you trumpet the most. Nobody of my acquaintance is sinless. If you claim to be, then you should read The Bible on the universal state of sin.

What I have found is that despite breaking God's Laws, 72 per cent of all people are decent, kind people who usually would not hurt even a 'coon crossing the road.

You have already noted that I alluded to everybody breaking God's Laws. Even so, the Law about the Sabbath is not a universal Law of God. It was given to Israel, to the Jews, the Chosen people of God. That Chosen Status of the Jews infuriates a large horde of people. Frankly, just as prophesied throughout the Old Testament, all mankind has been blessed through Israel. I love the Jews. After all, the greatest of God's gifts to me was offered through the progeny of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob - the granddaddies of all the Jews.

Those who suppose that they can be excused for turning a blind eye to the Word of God - have the lesson of Peter in Matt 16. Peter was affirmed when he expressed cutting edge leading faith in Christ as the Messiah the Son of God. But when Peter was introduced to the "next truth" the "next inconvenient truth" in Matt 16 he balked.

And then Christ turns to Peter and said "get thee behind me Satan".

Those who suppose themselves so secure that they can now turn against God's word - are not listening to Matt 18 or Matt 16 or Romans 11 very good at all.

God is not the God of confusion. Those who imagine that God is fostering confusion and rejection of His own Law - are listening to "another Christ" -- one whom "we have not preached" as Paul warns.

In Matt 7 Christ said "MANY" are on the wide road to destruction and the MANY will say in the last day "Lord Lord did we not attend church on Sunday and say all the right words in our songs?" - and Jesus will say to them "it is not those who SAY Lord lord that will enter the kingdom of heaven - but rather it is he who DOES the will of My Father".

Matt 7.

All I will say to that is "if the shoe fits, wear it." You been fitted?

Rebellion against the Word of God is not going to be nearly the blessed and holy thing that some people have imagined.

Let all be warned off of that ground - for there is no safety there -- there is only self-delusion as described in Matt 7. Thinking they are ok - when they are not.

Yet in all this - I would never claim that there are not Mormons, and JWs, and Catholics etc that are sincere and that are saved - none-the-less as it is true that God does wink to some extent when it comes to those not informed about the Word.

in Christ,

Bob

May you all come to know God as well as I do.

Not boasting - ole George King, after all, is a University of Georgia graduate. One of their watch words has always been don't let learning interfere with your college education. I am the most decrepit, most sinful Bull Dawg ever there was. But I am saved by the Grace of God through the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ. And I have been attempting to closely follow Jesus for a long time.

[JawgeFromJawja]

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

Ham, you have totally misread me. You just do not realize the extent of that misinterpretation.

How can I say this more plainly? I love Jewish people and all things Jewish. Nothing, NOTHING, concerning spiritual or Religious Judaism, is wrong. I know you will cringe about that statement, but it is my belief. Despite anything you say, the Jews, real ethnic and religious Jews, those who publicly profess the religion of Judaism, remain God's chosen people. Those who practice Judaism in good faith are saved, they are even now assured of God's protection and grace.

I said it before, and I say it again, I was strongly considering conversion to Judaism before reactivating my Church attendance. Of course, even my Jewish friends, true to standard Jewish practice, discouraged that.

But you still uphold anti-Jewish sentiments. IE, Jesus was a Jew, therefore 'customs' He may have made are of Jewish in nature and are not to be followed. Paul the same. [EVen if you do not hold to that belief, they ARE still anti-Jewish sentiments.']

This reasoning is so perverted that I almost hesitate to respond.

Let me summarize what you are in fact saying:

God gave some laws and rituals specifically for Jews.

Jesus was a Jew.

I am a Christian, and Christians are supposed to "follow

Jesus"

Therefore, if I don't follow the Jewish way of life, I am

spouting anti-Jewish sentiments and not following MY Lord.

You know what? That logic is so fallacious that I am

But a good laugh has cleared my cogitating apparatus. I get it now - you are pulling my leg.

This thinking results in NO basis in the scripture to separate Jewish customs with first century discipleship. Do you realize the ramifications of this principle?

Let me tell you....You don't know where God's word begins for the Christian, and where Jewish customs end.

You excuse Jesus' examples and now we have NO role model.

You excuse Paul's theology for justification because it only applies to the Jews, not to the gentiles....

You excuse clearly written records that explain what God wants for us in our relationships with Him.

The NT becomes just a book about love, with no explainations on how to diferentiate between custom and practice.

You have a big gaping hole in your theology and logic and practice....and I await your explanation...

Quote:

Am I to believe that your insistance that Jews are outward

people?

Well, yes, those who are ethnic / religious Jews. You cannot get more "outward" than being circumcised. Paul was using Jewishness as a type for integrity of faith - he was not saying that any and all Christians inherit the "Chosen People" status of Jews. Before you jump all over me for saying Christians are not God's chosen ones, I say again, the Jewishness Paul referred to was a type for religious integrity. Those who in faith accept Christianity do become adopted children of God.

The "We have no King but Cesear" concept is an outgrowth of the Jews rebellion recorded thru out history. After sending His Son to plead with the Jews to come back to Him and to show them how, God finally accepts their withdrawal from thier "chosen" status. Texts from the bible that show that there were others, ie gentiles, who then stepped up to become a 'chosen people, a royal priesthood' and who become 'spiritual Jews' would fall on deaf ears in your book, right?

Quote:

Roman 2-

28 A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.

So, based upon this text alone, all gentile/Christians are Jews....Since Jesus and Paul are true Jews , all scripture that shows them as examples are for all true Jews/Christians...Therefore, the scriptures are valid for the gentiles chrisitans...

Again, you are confusing Paul's illustration by type for what Paul was attempting to illustrate.

I assume that you will not see this as evidence that support my claims that all in the NT who became followers of Jesus were also spiritual Jews and the NT allows all of us gentiles the very same responsibilities and promises as given to real Jews...

Quote:

Dear Lord, why are Adventists so dense?

(If you take that preceding sentence as anything but levity, may God help us both.)

I don't suppose that holding up a mirror at this point would make an impact on the levity of the situation....?

Agape

[BobRyan]

Christ said that those who disregard even the least of God's commandments and so teach others - will be considered least by those in the kingdom of heaven.

Paul said "What matters is keeping the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:18

Originally Posted By: George

Paul said that God has winked at the former times of ignorance but now calls all men everywhere to repent.

[color:#000099']Bob, you are in fact saying that anyone who faithfully studies The Bible and who does not It interpret the same way you do is doomed.

On the contrary.

I said "I would never claim that there are not Mormons, and JWs, and Catholics etc that are sincere and that are saved - none-the-less as it is true that God does wink to some extent when it comes to those not informed about the Word."

Originally Posted By: George

I have repeatedly asked for specific Scriptural mandates that Gentiles keep the Sabbath.

And you have been repeatedly shown that "ALL MANKIND" is to keep Sabbath in Is 66.

That "The Sabbath was made for MANKIND" in Mark 2:27.

That Gentiles are given a specific blessing in keeping Christ our Creator's Holy day in Isaiah 56.

And that there "REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God" in Heb 5.

More than this - even your OWN - Andy Stanley and Charles Stanley - mega church pastors admit that the Bible teaching makes Sabbath binding on MANKIND - not "just jews".

Even D.L. Moody got that point.

Originally Posted By: George=

No one on this forum has Scripturally shown such a mandate.

[/quote

Oh well - "you can lead a horse to water..."

Thus you turn not only from the Bible on this one - you turn even from your own Baptist preachers to follow your determined course of rebellion against the Ten commandments.

(Guilty of one - guilty of all - says James in James 2).

My obligation is to warn those in darkness. I have no obligation to peer into their soul and see if they have yet crossed the line from saved to unsaved in their stubborn rejection of the Word of God when it comes to Bible doctrine that does not fit their preferences.

Christ had a thing or two to say about those who try to invalidate the Commandments of God with their man-made preferences and traditions (in Mark 7:8-12)

Quote:

Bob, I do not believe that all of mankind is going to Hell or the fiery pit or Sheol or whatever in a leaky lifeboat. I have faith in God as a Being of unlimited love and mercy as well as justice. God is infinite in all of His qualities

God Himself says in Matt 7 that the MANY inside the church are on the WIDE road to the lake of fire and the FEW are on the narrow road that leads to life.

If our method of Bible study is just to ignore any text that does not fit our preference - that would be a good place to start.

God said it was "MADE for MANKIND" in Mark 2:27

your response above is -- "oh no it was not".

God said that "ALL MANKIND will come before Me - from Sabbath to Sabbath - to worship" in Is 66.

You respond with "o no Lord - only the Jews will do that".

Your argument is with the text itself.

God said in James 2 - that he who is guilty of breaking one - if guilty of breaking them all.

You say that all are important EXCEPT for one!

Jesus said that He who teaches others to break God's Laws is considered least - in heaven.

My job is to inform people about the warnings God gives in scripture - against the course you are following.

I have no obligation to make them think, or make them make the right decision. Only to inform and explain.

Apparently even D.L Moody and Andy Stanley get some of the key parts of this topic right.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Those who suppose that they can be excused for turning a blind eye to the Word of God - have the lesson of Peter in Matt 16. Peter was affirmed when he expressed cutting edge leading faith in Christ as the Messiah the Son of God. But when Peter was introduced to the "next truth" the "next inconvenient truth" in Matt 16 he balked.

And then Christ turns to Peter and said "get thee behind me Satan".

Those who suppose themselves so secure that they can now turn against God's word - are not listening to Matt 18 or Matt 16 or Romans 11 very good at all.

God is not the God of confusion. Those who imagine that God is fostering confusion and rejection of His own Law - are listening to "another Christ" -- one whom "we have not preached" as Paul warns.

In Matt 7 Christ said "MANY" are on the wide road to destruction and the MANY will say in the last day "Lord Lord did we not attend church on Sunday and say all the right words in our songs?" - and Jesus will say to them "it is not those who SAY Lord lord that will enter the kingdom of heaven - but rather it is he who DOES the will of My Father".

Matt 7.

Rebellion against the Word of God is not going to be nearly the blessed and holy thing that some people have imagined.

Let all be warned off of that ground - for there is no safety there -- there is only self-delusion as described in Matt 7. Thinking they are ok - when they are not.

Yet in all this - I would never claim that there are not Mormons, and JWs, and Catholics etc that are sincere and that are saved - none-the-less as it is true that God does wink to some extent when it comes to those not informed about the Word.

=============================================================

So - ok - that was "The Bible case" for this discussion.

May you all come to know God as well as I do.

Not boasting - ole George King, after all, is a University of Georgia graduate. One of their watch words has always been don't let learning interfere with your college education.

I am the most decrepit, most sinful Bull Dawg ever there was.

...

1John 2:4-8

in Christ,

Bob

[Neil D]

You may be laughing, but you offer no counter rebuttal. You have no answer except to mock it, which is not an answer. You offer no evidence except to declare that the statement "Jesus is a Jew" is not a racist statement and that there is not a racist bone in your body.

The problem is that as the word Jew is also in some circles as slur. Remember Germany during WWII and the preciding years before that? To be a Jew was to be held in contempt of being human. And guess what....It's not a laughing matter...

Biblical History, around the 1-3rd centurys shows that Jews were held in contempt as humnan beings... I would suspect that an equivelant slur today is the "N-word". Even in some circles today, each race would be considered less than human...It's a shame to be considered less than human. And you are using the statement that Jesus is a Jew as a way to excuse yourself from following Jesus and Paul's example that they were models on behavior for all mankind. What an excuse for excusing yourselves from following Jesus and Paul's examples....and the bible for that matter..

You have it, in your head, that the customs that Jesus modeled as written in the bible, were only for the Jews.Why is being God's chosen people of importance?

[BobRyan]

Christ said that those who disregard even the least of God's commandments and so teach others - will be considered least by those in the kingdom of heaven.

Paul said "What matters is keeping the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:18

[JawgeFromJawja]

Ah, muddle duddle and other vicious, slanderous, offensive expletives! That is what hamilton-beach and BobRyan have driven this po' ole elderly guy to - inappropriate language that would shame the most foul-mouthed sailor.

Actually, as I type this post, my heart is light and a good will smile plays on my face, for here we are, ostensibly 3 mature people who in effect are saying about multiple verses and passages:

First Poster: "Solomon 27: 72 does say that!"

Second Poster: "It does not say that. You are misinterpreting plain English."

Third Poster "You are wrong, Second poster, and you are not accepting our exegesis because you are mulishly determined to hold your faulty interpretation. You are being mule headed because renouncing your interpretation even though you know you are wrong would deflate your ego and make you less popular among those of your denomination."

First Poster: "Solomon 27: 72 does say what I say it says! Show me word by word that it agrees with your doctrine."

Third Poster "Yes, you are wrong,Second poster, and I agree with Second Poster - you are not accepting our exegesis because you are rebelling against God's word. You just won't admit it. Show us your meaning word for word."

Second Poster: "I already showed you!"

Repeated over and over, etc, etc, etc, ad infinitum

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

You may be laughing, but you offer no counter rebuttal. You have no answer except to mock it, which is not an answer. You offer no evidence except to declare that the statement "Jesus is a Jew" is not a racist statement and that there is not a racist bone in your body.

The problem is that as the word Jew is also in some circles as slur.

[color:#336666]Not my circle.

Remember Germany during WWII and the preciding years before that? To be a Jew was to be held in contempt of being human. And guess what....It's not a laughing matter...

This is totally irrelevant, and I am not laughing. I say and use the word "Jew" respectfully and with good will.

Biblical History, around the 1-3rd centurys shows that Jews were held in contempt as humnan beings... I would suspect that an equivelant slur today is the "N-word". Even in some circles today, each race would be considered less than human...It's a shame to be considered less than human.

And you are using the statement that Jesus is a Jew as a way to excuse yourself from following Jesus and Paul's example that they were models on behavior for all mankind. What an excuse for excusing yourselves from following Jesus and Paul's examples....and the bible for that matter..

You have it, in your head, that the customs that Jesus modeled as written in the bible, were only for the Jews.Why is being God's chosen people of importance?

I never even hinted such. I repeatedly pointed out that Gentile compliance with Jewish religious practices is voluntary. Ham, is your behavior in good will?

I do hope you are kidding me, but the tone of your comments suggests you are serious. If you are serious, then I have not seen such un-Christian behavior from Adventists since the early years of my marriage. None of the current Adventists (there are many) in my circle would show such behavior.

[Gerr]

Gerry:

It is inconceivable to me, Jawge, that after Paul went through great lengths to emphasize the oneness of true believers that anyone would then proceed to make distinctions between Jew & Gentile. How then could you say there is ONE God, ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE baptism, ONE Head, ONE Savior, ONE gospel, ONE citizenship, ONE household, ONE body, ONE Mediator, ONE Law, and then proceed to say that Jews & Jewish Christians keep a 10c law and Gentiles only 9?

The oneness of true believers does not in any way verify Sabbath keeping.

And you think you can just dismiss the above on your say so WITHOUT ONE shred of scripture? Defending a position merely from the standpoint of silence is hardly credible.

Do we have different laws that apply to different US citizens?

How just is a God that has different set of standards to different peoples?

Just what kind of evidence are you looking for, Jawge? Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath made it at creation, set it apart & made it holy, BEFORE there was ever any Jew (Gen 2:2-3), and said it was FOR MANKIND, Mk 2:27. And then I haven't seen you address the point I have brought up at least twice, i.e. that the REAL JEW and the REAL CIRCUMCISION not a matter of genetics & the cutting of flesh, it is an inward experience, Rom 2:25-29.

Originally Posted By: Jawge

Now don't get peeved or angry about this statement - it is the truth:

Truth based on what text? Is there a text that says Gentiles can disregard the Sabbath? I'll address the issues you are raising below in another post to make the discussion more readable.

[Gerr]

Sabbath keeping Christians dance around these passages, and their explanations are not convincing:

Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

< concerning the 4th Commandment>

Eph 2:15 KJV Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Somewhat wordy. This passage is clearer in the NIV:

NIV Eph 2: 15 by abolishing in His flesh the Law with its commandments and regulations.

CLEARLY, SOMETHING was abolished at the Cross! I agree 1000%!

In the above passages, there was a law that was abolished. On the other hand, the same Paul also wrote:

ESV | &#8206;Ro 3:31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

&#8206;&#8206;NASB95 | &#8206;Ro 3:31 Do we then °nullify the °Law through faith? °May it never be! On the contrary, we °establish the °Law. 39.1% difference

&#8206;&#8206;NIV84 | &#8206;Ro 3:31 Do we, then°, nullify the law by this faith? °Not at all! °Rather, we uphold the law.

Some laws were abolished, but Paul is equally clear that a certain LAW IS BEING UPHELD! Jesus himself said that He did not come to abolish the law or the prophets but to fulfill them. Which law belong to the "abolished" and which law is upheld or being established?

There are different laws mentioned in the Bible.

1a. ESV | &#8206;Le 6:14 “And this is the law of the grain offering;

1b. ESV | &#8206;Le 6:25 “Speak to Aaron and his sons, saying, This is the law of the sin offering

1c. ESV | &#8206;Le 7:1 “This is the law of the guilt offering. It is most holy, etc. etc. You can find these laws in the first few chapters of Leviticus that have to do with the tabernacle sacrificial services. They were all referred to as "law". These were typological because they pointed to the sacrifice made by Christ on the Cross.

2. Laws regarding diseases such as leprosy or any skin disease, law of jealousy, etc. These are also found in Leviticus.

3. Ten Commandments as found in Ex 20.

Simple deduction alone tells me it cannot be the 10c. Do away with the 10c and you have removed the only thing that tells you & me that we are sinners and in need of a Saviour. No law = no sin = no need for the gospel/Saviour.

2b contd.

[Gerr]

Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

What is God saying in the above verses? That we are free to establish our own standards of right and wrong? You and I can esteem a day or pronounce our judgments as to what is right to eat or not to eat, but it won't make one iota of difference. What matters is what God says. And it is written that God "blessed the seventh day and made it holy," and "God rested" on that day, Gen 2:2,3 ESV, and "the Sabbath was made for man..." Mk 2:27 ESV. On no other day did He pronounce a blessing. And God in His word told us the healthiest foods to eat. The promise is that if we follow His rules, the promise is:

ESV | &#8206;Ex 15:26 saying, “If you will diligently listen to the voice of the LORD your God, and do that which is right in his eyes, and give ear to his commandments and keep all his statutes, I will put none of the diseases on you that I put on the Egyptians, for I am the LORD, your healer.”

Originally Posted By: Jawge

Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

< concerning the 4th Commandment>

You say that the other 9c apply to Gentiles, does keeping them put you in right standing with God? If keeping the other 9c does not earn you one iota of merit, neither is one justified BECAUSE they keep the 4th commandment. I have already quoted you Paul in a previous post in which he said, "Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law." Rom 3:31 ESV.

Believing sinners are put right with our gracious God because they believe what says. Led by the Spirit, they then work out in their lives the principles of the law that He writes in the heart in fulfillment of the New Covenant promise.

Cont'd

[Gerr]

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

What was the "handwriting of ordinances" that were "against us" and "contrary to us" that were blotted out and "nailing it to his cross?"

If that is what the 10c does, the very law that undergirds all human laws, then we should do away with ALL laws! But that would result in anarchy! Here is what Strong's Gk has to say about cheirographon 5498. &#967;&#949;&#953;&#961;&#972;&#947;&#961;&#945;&#966;&#959;&#957; cheirógraphon; gen. cheirográphou, neut. noun from cheír (5495), hand, and gráph&#333; (1125), to write. Handwriting, record of debt, a note written by the hand which makes one obligated to fulfill what is written (Col. 2:14 [cf. Eph. 2:15]).

Zodhiates, S. (2000). The complete word study dictionary : New Testament (electronic ed.). Chattanooga, TN: AMG Publishers.

Or Louw Nida: 33.40 &#967;&#949;&#953;&#961;&#972;&#947;&#961;&#945;&#966;&#959;&#957;, &#959;&#965; n: a handwritten statement, especially a record of financial accounts (similar in meaning to &#947;&#961;&#940;&#956;&#956;&#945;d ‘account,’ 33.39, but perhaps with emphasis upon the handwritten nature of the document)—‘account, record of debts.’ &#7952;&#958;&#945;&#955;&#949;&#943;&#968;&#945;&#962; &#964;&#8056; &#954;&#945;&#952;&#787; &#7969;&#956;&#8182;&#957; &#967;&#949;&#953;&#961;&#972;&#947;&#961;&#945;&#966;&#959;&#957; ‘he cancelled the record of our debts’ Col 2:14.

Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Vol. 1: Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament : Based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition.) (393). New York: United Bible societies.

So the ESV, NASB, render it thus:

ESV,| &#8206;Col 2:14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

&#8206;&#8206;NASB95 | &#8206;Col 2:14 °having canceled out the °certificate of debt °consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us°; and He has taken it out of the way, °having nailed it to the cross.

So what is this "record of debt" or "certificate of debt" that was cancelled at the Cross? When you or I drive recklessly and given a ticket, that record stands against us in court. When we pay the fine, that is no longer held against us. Likewise, when we transgress the Law, a record is kept that stands against us. The wages of breaking God's law is death. The Good News is that when we come to a relationship with Christ and accept Him as Lord and Savior, the charges are dropped and we are promised everlasting life!

It's near midnight, so I'll deal with the rest of Colosians 2:15 later. No dancing, I promise.

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: hamilton-beach

You have it, in your head, that the customs that Jesus modeled as written in the bible, were only for the Jews.Why is being God's chosen people of importance?

I never even hinted such. I repeatedly pointed out that Gentile compliance with Jewish religious practices is voluntary. Ham, is your behavior in good will?

[Gerr]

The Bible and The Holy Spirit tell me so. Paul being a Jewish Pharisee kept Jewish customs.

ESV | &#8206;Ac 14:1 Now at Iconium they entered together into the Jewish synagogue and spoke in such a way that a great number of both Jews and Greeks believed.

ESV | &#8206;Ac 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and tried to persuade Jews and Greeks.

What were the Greeks doing in the synagogue on the Sabbath, Jawge?

[Gerr]

Cont'd:

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

It's against my personal religion to dance in public, Jawge, so I will attempt to deal with these verses head-on.

I have already dealt with the handwriting that was blotted out in a previous post. I suspect that your main thrust is on verse 16.

1. First of all, it's not my place to judge you or anyone else as to what you eat, drink, or what holy days you are to observe. God is the judge. However, Jesus, in giving the great commission to His disciples commanded that we are to teach others to observe all that He has commanded, Mt 28:20. And among His commandments is to keep the Sabbath holy, which He said was for mankind. And the Judge will use the 10c as the measuring stick to judge us by.

2. If you think that the sabbath days mentioned here in Col 2:16 is the 7th day Sabbath, I submit to you that that is a mistaken notion. I believe verse 17 makes it plain as to what sabbaths Paul was talking about. Here is what 2:17 says:

ESV | &#8206;Col 2:17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

&#8206;&#8206;NASB95 | &#8206;Col 2:17 °things which are a mere shadow of °what is to come°; but the substance belongs to Christ.

&#8206;&#8206;NIV84 | &#8206;Col 2:17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, °is found in Christ.

Verse 16 is talking about things in the sanctuary services that were types, "mere shadow of what is to come, but the substance," "the reality is found in Christ." There were Jewish festivals that were designated as sabbath days. These were types because they pointed to Christ, e.g. Passover.

The 7th day Sabbath did not point forward to the Cross; it was a memorial pointing back to a past event, i.e. the creation week.

I brought up this issue previously, but let me ask you again - what is the purpose of the Sabbath? Did God give it to mankind for a blessing or curse? If the former, why would you not want to enjoy it? If the latter, why would a holy, just, and loving God give something that would be a detriment to people?

[Gerr]

Jawge:

Foremost, Paul was speaking from a "New Covenant" perspective. The commandments as given in Old Covenant Scripture were specifically addressed to Israel. You cannot show a passage that reveals God giving the Ten Commandments to any but the Children of Israel. Foreigners were invited to participate voluntarily. It is singularly indicative that Jewish scholars of the Old Covenant era recognized an abbreviated Law called "The Noachian Law". That code included the Law as delimited in the New Testament; neither that code nor New Testament code included keeping the Sabbath.

Gerry: Participate voluntarily? You must be joking! Do you think Rahab and her family were still free to practice their Canaanite pagan religion when they joined themselves to Israel? I'll say it again: To argue a point from silence doesn't hold water because there is no direct instruction to Gentiles either that they can disregard one of the 10c. James says that if you break one of the 10c, you break them all, Jam 2:10. Jesus plainly said: ESV | &#8206;Mt 5:17-19 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill [GK plerosai - to make fullthem. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. &#8206;19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Jawge:

And yet, and yet, and yet, nowhere do you find Sabbath keeping mandated anywhere in the Old Testament or the New Testament. This is not arguing a point from silence, because this silence is deafening. In and of itself, by repeated non-occurrence in the Old or the New Testament, its silence screams to the ages that you are wrong.

Gerry: Not as silent as you continue to claim. For what purpose and for whose benefit did God hang this sign on the Sabbath? "Sanctified/set apart/made holy/taboo" Gen. 2:2-3? Here again is the OT reference to Gentiles keeping the Sabbath which you continue to ignore: Is 56:6 “And the foreigners who join themselves to the LORD, to minister to him, to love the name of the LORD, and to be his servants, everyone who keeps the Sabbath and does not profane it, and holds fast my covenant—" has to be viewed as just as inclusive. The "foreigners" clearly refers to Gentiles.

Again: ESV | &#8206;Heb 4:9 So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, &#8206;10 for whoever has entered God’s rest has also rested from his works as God did from his."

Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

Jawge:

Spoken to "The Hebrews", therefore with Jewish allusions. But there is no mandate here for universal Sabbath keeping. If you see such a mandate, either you are delusional or I am blind.

Gerry: Interesting. Surely, it must be the latter. :) You think Paul's epistle to the Corinthians applies to all, and yet you claim these allusions are only for Hebrew although the writer plainly says, "So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God." Surely, you belong to this group, Jawge?

That this rest is not only spiritual (Heb 4:3) but also literal is seen in Heb 4:4, which points back to His rest in Gen 2:2. So the invitation to ALL is: ESV | &#8206;Heb 4:11 "Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience."

Jawge:

Nonsense. These verses show nothing of the sort. If you think so, please show this ole man your word by word reasoning.

Gerry:

Hmmmm. Without one text to disprove what I quoted, just like that, you claim it's nonsense? Is this Jawgia bulldog too old to learn new tricks? Please, read it again, then tell me what's not clear.

Jawge, in another post, you said there is nothing wrong if a Gentile decides to keep the Sabbath. I take that to mean that there is no downside to obeying the 4th commandment. In fact, there are many blessings to it. But is there a downside to your position if you are wrong?

[Gerr]

Again' date=' you are confusing Paul's illustration by type for what Paul was attempting to illustrate.[/color']

So, what is Paul trying to illustrate in Rom 2:27-29? He can't be any clearer. Inheriting the promised blessing to Abraham is not a matter of human seed/genetics, the real descendants of Abraham are not "merely one outwardly". The REAL Jew per Paul, "is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter." That is why Paul could say to the Galatians, ESV | &#8206;Ga 3:28 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

ONE, Jawge, ONE. No Gentiles keeping only the 7 Noahide laws, or Gentiles keeping 10-1 commandments. All citizens of ONE kingdom, subjects to ONE Ruler, having ONE law for Jew or Gentile.

[phkrause]

ONE, Jawge, ONE. No Gentiles keeping only the 7 Noahide laws, or Gentiles keeping 10-1 commandments. All citizens of ONE kingdom, subjects to ONE Ruler, having ONE law for Jew or Gentile.

Well put Gerry.

[Gerr]

Spoken to "The Hebrews", therefore with Jewish allusions. But there is no mandate here for universal Sabbath keeping. If you see such a mandate, either you are delusional or I am blind.

Or here's another possibility - you're in DENIAL, Jawge!!! :)

[Gerr]

Oh, Brother Jawge, where art thou?

[JawgeFromJawja]

Oh, Brother Jawge, where art thou?

It seemed best for me to take a while off from Club Adventist. There is only one of me, but the number of members posting on this topic, each with multiple Scriptural allusions, and each providing a huge volume of comments, made it appear that some of you wonderful guys and dolls were trying to snooker me into the trap of believing that God demands we Christians must follow a laundry list of do’s and don’t’s in order to attain and keep our salvation. That list includes, of course, keeping the Sabbath.

From the time of my engagement to my Adventist wife, Annette, to my posing the topic “Sabbath Keeping: Mandated for Whom? A Question from a Heretical Baptist”, I have looked at and heard uncounted opinions about that poser from the perspective of Adventists, other interested Christians, Jews, and a smattering of other faiths or non-faiths. As you probably realize, multiple opinions abound expressing every shade of compunction about keeping or not keeping the Sabbath. Last month, I sent an e-Mail note to Mechon Mamre asking for an opinion from that foundation on Isaiah 66: 23. Their reply was prompt. The opinion from Mechon Mamre on that verse is copied at the bottom of this post.

After several days of prayerfully considering all of your posts from September 23, The Spirit led me once more to the realization that following a complex and weighty system of laws is not a requirement for salvation. However, Scripture makes it quite clear that each person must be fully persuaded in his own mind about keeping the Sabbath.

But note: this is a decision that must be made on faith! If you should have any doubt about keeping the Sabbath, then you must keep the Sabbath!

Jesus himself said

Mat_11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

Mat_11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

If you strive to follow a list of do’s and don’t’s as your guarantee of salvation, then you may be following after vain deeds of “The Law” without practicing the underlying principle of the Law, which is Love. Now don’t take that last sentence to mean George Collier King believes the deeds of the Law are vain. The deeds of the Law become vain only if the Law is not followed in the Spirit of the Law, which is love. Paul says the Law was given us as a tutor for behavior until Christ accomplished our salvation by His death.

Paul discusses two points of doctrine germane to Adventism in Romans chapter 14. He feels that each individual should make up his own mind about those two doctrinal concerns.

Rom 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

Rom 14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

Rom 14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

Despise my wonderful Adventist kindred and friends? Never. As I have said on this forum before, I honor and respect Adventists for their commitment and courage in keeping the Sabbath, and the approximately 40 % of Adventists who practice vetarianism, because

Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

Verse 4 makes it clear that we are individually accountable to God for our actions, and further that whatever our practice in these two matters, God stands by us.

Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

After two weeks of prayerful reconsideration of a subject I have repeatedly encountered as the husband of an Adventist wife for over 51 years, I am fully persuaded that for me, keeping the Sabbath is not mandated, and it is certainly not a requirement for salvation. Even so, I joyfully keep the Sabbath Day with my Adventist family.

However, you must each individually make that decision. I live with and among a buncha Seventh Day Adventists. Whatever I believe, I must not offend my sister or brother by my actions. After all, they are my kith and kin.

A world reknown Adventist scholar, Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi, professor at Andrews University, researched the change in Christians’ keeping of the Sabbath for his PhD. He concluded that cultural, religious, and political factors all played a part in Christians’ substitution of Sunday for the day of Worship of God, even as early as the first century AD. Even though Bacchiocchi was denounced by many Adventists, even to the point of accusing him of being a Jesuit implant, he remained a professor at Andrews until his death, keeping his commitment to the Sabbath until his death.

Rom 14:7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.

Rom 14:8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Rom 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

Rom 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

Rom 14:15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.

Rom 14:16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:

Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

This verse says it all about food and drink, and lest anyone think “drink” does not refer to alcoholic beverages, verse 21 should make it clear that fermented wine is not an issue of salvation or righteousness for God. Otherwise, regarding wine, verse 21 is a rather silly statement.

Rom 14:18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.

Rom 14:19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.

Rom 14:20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.

Rom 14:21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

Rom 14:22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Mechon Mamre, a foundation of Jewish Scholars in Israel, responded quite promptly to my request for their interpretation of Isaiah 66: 23. Mechon Mamre is now on my list of organizations that divide my tithe. Their response indents my original query lines with a “>”. Here is their response, highlighted in green, with my the body of my e-mail in black:

From: mtr@mechon-mamre.org <mtr@mechon-mamre.org>

Date: Sunday, September 25, 2011 10:54 AM

To: Annette and George King <agking43@windstream.net>

Subject: Re: Interpretation of Isaiah Ch 66 v 23

by'"`--

Dear George,

> Kudos and thanks to Mechon Mamre. I discovered your web site several

> months

> ago while web surfing for opinions on the meaning of certain Biblical

> passages.

> Would you please comment on the meaning of Isaiah 66: 23? I am discussing

> that verse with Seventh-Day Adventists on an Adventist web forum.

> My interpretation is the verse means that ultimately all mankind will

> worship G-d constantly, from month to month and from day to day.

While you may be right in the end, this particular verse refers to

worshipping God on the first day of the month (rosh Hodesh) and on the

seventh day of the week. What you say is possible as an added matter,

but it is not mentioned in this verse. In the verse, the expression

"shall all flesh come to worship before Me"

is understood by us Jews to refer to coming to Jerusalem for worship

before the Temple (where the Divine Presence of God is said to

"dwell", not literally of course!), though it could by extension be

worship of God in any place, knowing that God knows what is going on

everywhere.

> The opposing interpretation is that all mankind will ultimately worship

> G-d on the Sabbath,

Yes, with no suggestion that on any other day He will be ignored.

> and further that all mankind will will keep the Sabbath.

NO! This is not even vaguely suggested by the verse (or any other).

Sabbath is mentioned only as a TIME with no suggestion of the many

special strictures of that day that apply only to Jews.

> Before finding the Mechon Mamre website, I was not at all aware of the

> tradition and doctrines on Noachian Law. Your website has been helpful in

> clarifying several matters of doctrine.

We only mention the matter, but there is a lot of detail on other

sites devoted to the matter.

shalom and all the very best to you and yours from Jerusalem!

Shelomo

The Webmaster

Agape,

[musashi]

Why on earth the sabbath is a burden of the Law?

When this signifies rest.

In what way the sabbath is a burden?

Is it a burden because this secular world recognizes Sunday as corporate rest therefore it is more difficult to keep it making it a burden?

Is it a burden because it is in direct contradiction of the Sunday law?

[musashi]

Quote:

Yes, with no suggestion that on any other day He will be ignored.

Do we mean that we need to make everyday a Sabbath?

Do we not need to work everyday making everyday a Sabbath?

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

We need to work for a living you know.

What happens when you make everyday a sabbath day? how are we able to make a living?

were gonna end up discussing which day is the sabbath? which was already answered?

[John317]

A world reknown Adventist scholar, Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi, professor at Andrews University, researched the change in Christians&#146; keeping of the Sabbath for his PhD. He concluded that cultural, religious, and political factors all played a part in Christians&#146; substitution of Sunday for the day of Worship of God, even as early as the first century AD.

Can you quote or give the reference to the page in his book where Dr. Bacchiocchi claims that Sunday was the day of worship for Christians in the first century?

Dr. Bacchiocchi also showed in his book the important role played by the bishop and church at Rome in the change of the Sabbath to Sunday.

History testifies that the churches at Rome and Alexandria made laws discouraging Sabbath-keeping and encouraging Sunday keeping. They punished people for keeping the Sabbath and rewarded them for keeping Sunday. Sunday was made a feast day whereas the Sabbath was made a day of fasting.

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

Even though Bacchiocchi was denounced by many Adventists, even to the point of accusing him of being a Jesuit implant, he remained a professor at Andrews until his death, keeping his commitment to the Sabbath until his death.

Bacchiocchi was not a professor at Andrews until his death, but you are right about His keeping the Sabbath and being denounced by many.

I like many of Bacchiocchi's books, especially his book on Wine in the Bible. However, I have no doubt that in his training at the Catholic university in Rome, Dr. Bacchiocchi came under the influence of the Jesuits. I don't believe he was consciously working for the Jesuits.

[JawgeFromJawja]

Why on earth the sabbath is a burden of the Law?

When this signifies rest.

In what way the sabbath is a burden?

Is it a burden because this secular world recognizes Sunday as corporate rest therefore it is more difficult to keep it making it a burden?

Is it a burden because it is in direct contradiction of the Sunday law?

Are you speaking of physical rest or spiritual rest and renewal?

Again, look at Romans 14:

Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

We are under a New Covenant. Our spiritual rest is in The Lord. Jesus the purpose of Old Covenant Law, it all, and sealed the New Covenant with His sacrificial death.. I rest in and am spiritually renewed by God every day, as suggested in Romans 14: 5. Physical rest for most people can be achieved on the most convenient day and time for them individually, depending on many factors, including cultural and occupational. Fifty-one years ago, I married into an Adventist family. Our society is sufficiently flexible for most of my family to keep the Sabbath as their day of Spiritual and physical rest and renewal without inconvenience or its being a burden. However, I know, and you surely must know, Adventists for whom keeping the Sabbath is a problem for various reasons. The Christian or ethical approach to their sacrifice would be to accommodate them in their Sabbath commitment. Unfortunately, twenty-eight percent of people every where are mean spirited folk who delight in causing difficulty for others whenever they have an opportunity.

There is no de facto Sunday Law. In some states of The United States, there are legal relics still on the books mandating various degrees of Sunday activity restrictions, but these relics are not usually inforced to any realistic degree. There never will be a National Sunday Law because of the vast number of people of various faiths that require keeping different days other than Sunday, those of no faith who would be incensed by such an unconstitutional law, and non-Sabbath keeping Christians who love God, and who would never allow such anti-constitutional abuse to be perpetrated on their Sabbath keeping brothers and sisters. There are countless others who would oppose such a travesty because of its undermining of United States Constitutuonal principles.

To my knowledge, Jan Marcussen’s book National Sunday Law has been through some 98 editions or printinngs over more than forty years. That book is further from the truth than it ever was, but even in its early years it was widely condidered to be fallacious nonsense.

God's blessings,

[JawgeFromJawja]

Quote:

Yes, with no suggestion that on any other day He will be ignored.

Do we mean that we need to make everyday a Sabbath?

Do we not need to work everyday making everyday a Sabbath?

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

We need to work for a living you know.

What happens when you make everyday a sabbath day? how are we able to make a living?

were gonna end up discussing which day is the sabbath? which was already answered?

Paul tells us unequivocally that we should each make up his own mind about which day or days to hold sacred. Keeping the Sabbath, or any other day, is a spiritual matter.

If you check the full passage of your above Scriptural quote, you will find that it was directed to the Children of Israel (Jacob).

I don't believe that anyone of intellectual honesty could argue that the Sabbath is anything but the 7th day, Saturday. But Scripturally, keeping it was mandated for Jews only. By the way, I do not hold the word "Jew" to be a pejorative. It is not in any way demeaning, and indeed,for me is a badge of honor and courage.

Agape,