Did Christ Die the Second Death

[miz3]

When Christ became a man in the incarnation He had to give up not His divinity, but His divine prerogatives, in other words, the independent use of His divinity. Even His God-consciousness had to be given up. Jesus discovered He was God only by revelation. He was not God-conscious as a baby. He had to grow up in knowledge. He had to grow up in everything because He had given up the independent use of His divinity and was made in all things like unto us (Heb. 2:17).

Therefore, He was totally God-dependent all through His earthly ministry. John 5:30 says, “I can do nothing of myself.” John 6:57 says, “I live by the Father.” See also John 8:28 and John 14:10. All these texts state very clearly that Christ was totally God-dependent.

None of these texts say that Jesus Christ gave up His Divinity or the use of His Divinity. The Bible also says that Jesus Christ and the Father (Divinity) are One. That is in cannot be separated. Jesus Christ also said that He, Jesus Christ, lays down His own life and that nothing laid it down for Him. That means Jesus Christ laid down His own life "independent" of any other entity. Jesus Christ also states that on His own He raised Himself back up to life. That means Jesus Christ used His own unborrowed Divinity to take up His Life again.

The idea that Jesus Christ did not use His own Divinity is a myth spouted by humans to make Jesus Christ more like them. For some perverse reason this gives them more comfort. However, Jesus Christ is not just like "us" not only in His humanity but because Jesus Christ was also Divine and used that Divinity. He was God in every sense of the meaning and Jesus Christ cannot ever be made to be anything different. Jesus Christ was never and will never be just like us.

But miz3, but miz3, then how can Jesus Christ have been tempted in "all points" like us, etc. etc. No matter what Jesus Christ was in deed tempted in all points. Whether Jesus Christ had an advantage or not is not relevant. What is relevant is the God the Father and the whole Divineness agreed that what Jesus Christ did was absolutely Perfect. That is all that matters is whether Divinity was/is satisfied and Divinity is. It is not about whether you and I are satisfied and it fits our sinful human nature's view of right and wrong.

How can you a sinful entity judge whether what God would be is just and righteous or not. You cannot. The Bible has already done that for you. The Bible says that Jesus Christ used His Divine prerogatives to "lay down His life" and "take up His life again".

Case settled.

You are clearly misapplying the texts you cited.

[John317]

The idea that Jesus Christ did not use His own Divinity is a myth spouted by humans to make Jesus Christ more like them.

Where do the Gospels show evidence that Christ used His Deity for the sake of either resisting sin or for benefiting Himself in any other way?

Every miracle He did was on account of the power of the Holy Spirit, not His own power. As Robert said, Christ on earth was totally dependent on His Father.

[miz3]

Hebrews 2:17 says that Jesus Christ was tempted in all points the same as we have been tempted.

However it does not say that Jesus Christ "overcame" in the same way we are to overcome. It says only that Jesus Christ "never ever sinned".

The Bible does not ever say that Jesus Christ overcame sin the same way you and I overcome.

You keep wanting to make everything fit into our miniscule human "box" and that includes God which is why you "humanly create" a God and a Savior that is like your "human sinful self".

The Bible on the other hand tells of a God and Savior who is in absolute control and who can never ever lose. The God of Bible never even has the slightest whisper of doubt about who is going to win.

The same is true for Jesus Christ because Jesus Christ is God and Jesus Christ said He was God. God has everything determined. Such a concept is so foreign to yours and my sinful nature because it takes all the glory out of our doing something to be relevant. The sinful nature you and I have constantly wants to be the center of everything and therefore is at war with a God and a Savior who can and who actually does absolutely everything and we do nothing.

Your human made up God is frankly just TOO SMALL.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

The idea that Jesus Christ did not use His own Divinity is a myth spouted by humans to make Jesus Christ more like them.

Where do the Gospels show evidence that Christ used His Deity for the sake of either resisting sin or for benefiting Himself in any other way?

Every miracle He did was on account of the power of the Holy Spirit, not His own power. As Robert said, Christ on earth was totally dependent on His Father.

I told you but you refuse to see.

Jesus Christ laid down His own life and Jesus Christ took it back up again of His doing without any other source.

These come from Jesus Christ's own Words.

John317 I have noticed that you read many sources in order to get your views of God and many other "religious, spiritual" things. It is these "other sources" that cloud your view of truth. They crowd out what the Bible is actually saying. You need to spend many many less hours reading these "outside" sources and get alone with you and God much more often than you now do. I did not say that you did not spend time in Bible study, for I know you do. However regardless how you may feel or state about the use of your time, you and I know that you do not spend near enough time with just God, you and the Bible. You spend far too much time in these other "outside sources".

The Bible and the Bible only is the only definitive and relevant Book about God and Truth. Anything else is a waste of time. The mixture of Divine and human resources material will always lead you astray.

[miz3]

Divinity is Divinity.

Whether Divinity is the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit it is the SAME DIVINITY.

You cannot separate Divinity. It either is or it isn't.

Jesus Christ was both fully Divine and fully Human in a singular Entity. When the Bible says that Divinity sprang through Jesus Christ it does not matter because Divinity is Divinity and it is always the same. The Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit are NOT separate Divinities. The Divinity is the same.

I know this hard for you to follow because the "sinful mind" as Paul says in Romans chapter eight cannot think properly about Spiritual Things because it is impossible. Only God through the Spirit can give you the Truth (1Corinthians chapter two).

That is the reason why so many get it wrong because they depend on their info from too many "outside" sources that are also sinful human polluted brains.

If this is too hard for you to accept now, I hope that someday God will open you to accept God as He is.

[Parade Orange]

This is the best I've read on the 2nd death.

wow thay was great! that does answer it from an angle

thanku for that link

[Parade Orange]

The second death is the hell of wanting to be with our deepest desire: God, yet refusing to yield to the drawing of the Holy Spirit as God's love consumes us. They get to a place where they either have to yield or else cease to exist.

The entire trinity went through this in the passion. He wanted to just be with the Father and the Spirit and the Spirit and Father wanted to be with Jesus. Yet despite this overwheming desire to be together they refused to allow it to happen. The lost will refuse to allow it because they are afraid that God is going to get them for their sins so they pull back in terror. The members of the God head did it out of love for us knowing that if they did not let sin sepperate them from each other, and thus in the process kill Jesus, that it would kill us and the whole universe. The second death is the suicide of choosing to allow something to keep us from being with and enjoying the fellowship of God.

The cross shows us what sin does to us, the resurection tells us what if only we would let God, not all the sins of the world can keep us way, that God's love has the power to conqure all except for refusing to force our will. The second death need not keep the lost dead forever except that they willed to have the eternal sepperation.

111

KEVEIN H! i agree

its a deep thing u say and there are spiritual laws u r applying that sound forign to us but i believe the issue u bring up is closer to the TRUTH than what i hear others are saying

the thing is

the wicked dont know what they are giving up till its too late

the HOLY SPIRIT DRAWS and many resist but do they know what they resist? ABSOLATE LOVE AND L I F E ?

[Parade Orange]

Originally Posted By: Igakusei

This is something I never understood, even as a child. I remember always being confused by this, so I thought I would throw it out there and see what kind of answers I get. I'm not trying to pick a fight, so I promise I won't reply negatively to any of your answers.

If the penalty for sin is dying the second death and being eternally separated from God, then how did Jesus take that penalty from us considering that he was resurrected? The best I've ever heard was that he thought that he was dying the second death while on the cross, but thinking you are paying a terrible price is not exactly equal to actually paying a terrible price.

Resurrection makes the whole thing seem like me going into Best Buy and paying a few thousand dollars for a computer, but then breaking back in three days later and taking my money back. Doesn't that sort of negate the power of paying the price in the first place? If God can just bend the rules like that, why did Christ even need to die in the first place?

Anyway, I was just curious to see how this question is answered, since I don't remember ever getting one that didn't leave me confused. I promise I'm not trying to bait anyone.

Igakusei, this is an excellent question. It is questions like this that often get Christians into trouble.

The heart of this question goes right to heart of who God is. If we can know God and figure Him out then we can know how things work. Most Christians "think" they have God figured out they think the only thing left is to pick a few facts that have not been revealed. Other than the "few facts" most Christians believe that they know God and how God operates. In my book this kind of thinking could not be further from the Truth.

Human kind has hardly even begun to know to God and how He operates. We, humans, are not even at a level to be called preschool let alone try and tackle questions as deep as your question is.

The problem is that most Christians describe and understand God based on the "box" which is this planet and its existence. All the rules that govern how things work on this planet we call earth are the sum total of the rules that govern everything including heaven in the view of most people. In this light Christians understand and interpret everything they know about God within this very limited "box".

However, the Bible actually tells us that God is infinitely beyond this box, see Isaiah chapter 55 and Matthew chapter 19 and Luke 1:37. This means that God is not bound in any way shape or form by the rules of existence, rules of logic, rules of conduct, etc. that dominate and LIMIT our life as humans on this planet. God simply does not have these limitations.

Yet most Christians use these very "limiters" to account for how God is this, or does that, or how God cannot do this, or cannot be that. We do that as if God is just a "super human" who can do things better than we can but does so under the "limiting powers" that bind us as humans. This type of God is simply too small.

This is why Christians have so difficult a time in defending their "faith". This is "often" but not always why nonChristians laugh and scoff at how "foolish" and absurd Christians are.

The PLAIN HONEST FACT is that humans whether Christian or nonChristian know extremely little about God and how God operates in the vast Universe of His Creation.

Now to your exact question.

The answer is no one can explain with any real coherence what actually happened because the Bible does not tell us. What we do know is that Jesus Christ's sacrifice was sufficient to satisfy the sin debt for all humans. See Romans chapter five which makes that very point.

So how could Jesus Christ go to "hell" (not just some fake move but really be eternally in hell) and then be raised and no longer in hell suffering for our sins and yet he suffered eternally in hell.

We call this a paradox. We call this a paradox because no matter what we say nothing makes sense because in our "limited human world" this state of affairs makes no sense.

However God is NOT BOUNDED BY OUR RULES OR ANYTHING ABOUT OUR "BOX". God lives and operates outside of our "box". The rules are different outside our "box".

Maybe according to the "rules outside our box" God (Jesus Christ) can both go to hell eternally and at the same take up His life again and exist as if nothing happened.

Such a thing is impossible in our current "box" while in a larger "box" such things are indeed possible. In God's existence there are no boundaries thus God is not "in any box" only God's Creations live in boxes with boundaries.

A Mathematics illustration:

Suppose we have a reality that consists ONLY OF ZERO AND THE WHOLE NUMBERS. In this reality I say take two from one. You correctly tell me that is impossible because our "boxed reality" does not allow for that. In fact in our Math box we do not even, nor will we ever have any concept of numeration other than zero and the whole numbers. We will never ever be aware of "fractions, radicals, decimals, negative values, etc. Thus in our box it will never ever be possible to take two from one.

Now in our little Math Parable some being from a bigger Math Box comes to us and says that s/he indeed did take two from one. What would we do? We would certainly scoff at such a one and ridicule their ability to do just that.

Now think about a Math being who is the One who created all Math beings and created their boxes too. Many in our box put their "faith" in this Math God because we believe the Miracles this Math God performs. This Math God then actually does take two from one and claims to have done it (much the same as dying eternally but rising again to live forever).

Skeptics assert that this Math God did not actually take two from one because such things are "impossible" and do not make sense. Parable end.

If we are bounded or boxed with the whole numbers and zero only, indeed it is impossible to take two from one. The rules of our boundary make it "impossible" under any and all circumstances.

However, if we can operate in our box using the rules of a greater box such as the "negative numbers" we indeed can take two from one without breaking any of the smaller box rules even though if we are limited to the perceptions of the smaller box it would to be a paradox. The greater rules break the paradox.

The same is true in regard to God and Jesus Christ. As Matthew chapter nineteen points out " nothing is impossible with God". That means when God and Jesus Christ operate they are operating by the UNBOUNDED RULES even when they are doing their stuff in our bounded planet.

As such God and Jesus Christ can "go to hell for eternity" and then rise "to live forever as if nothing happened". God and Jesus Christ can Love and Hate at the same time even though our bounded human sinful experience says such things are impossible. God and Jesus Christ can be Jealous and at the same time tell us that being Jealous is a mortal sin. God and Jesus Christ can tell us that it is a mortal sin to "lie" and at the same time God tells the prophet Samuel to lie and to cover his lie. It is a lie in "our box" but maybe just maybe it is not a "lie" in God's unbounded state.

Just like the "numbers boxes".

Think about it. You might grow to like it even though on first blush it seems difficult to accept.

That is because we humans are too used to and don't know any better than to judge all things by the rules of our extremely tiny box.

i agree with much u say!

RIGHT ON!

we dont live at a GOD level!

WE ARE ARE MORTAL

and yes GOD IS IN A BOX OF OUR OWN MAKING

the more i learn of JESUS the bigger the box gets

but i in my finite thinking and reasoning HE must be in a box

i have to label and tag and mark and paint and wrap everything in my understanding

and because of that i put things on a shelf

lokk at it

dont understand again

then put it back on the shelf

i do that with family members as well as media people

serial killers and geniuses

i do that with aspects of physics and smells

dont understand so many things

it goes back on the shelf

knowing GOD is LOVE and a GOD is the one that created math and time and space

i know it may make sense in eternity

hopefully

i do want to say that i believe its in the bible!

we just havent seen it or figure the line up

GOD will show us how to connect the dots of the bible in heaven

at least for the first thousand years;)

[Parade Orange]

As regard to how did Christ rise up from the second death in which there is no resurrection. Second death means the same as the everlasting death - no resurrection. Roman 6:23 says "The Wages of sin is death." This rule only apply to those who sin but it does not apply to a born sinner who did not sin. Any one who is born of a woman make him/her a sinner. Death can claim a born sinner, but it can not keep anyone, who did not sin himself/herself at all, in there for too long. Jesus was born of a woman, a born sinner, so death can claim Him. But Jesus never sinned Himself, so death cannot keep Him there for long. Death had to set Him free. That's how Jesus came back to life. Had Jesus committed one single sin, He would not be able to come back to life. Satan would have a complete victory

YONGTTAY^

YES HE DID NOT SIN

thats why it couldnt hold HIM

a lil esoteric and biblical

i do agree that JESUS saw no eternity on the cross waiting for HIM

and THE TEMPTATION to not come of the CROSS not only to proove the zealots wrong but more importantly to FIGHT

to grab

t hang onto THE FATHER Whom HE had in HIS arms since eternity past

we have no idea how powerful that was

i lapping this thread up!

my heart sings when i ponder GODS IMAGINABLE LOVE

to do this

[Robert]

[Dr. Waite]

CASE IS NOT SETTLED!

JESUS CHRIST STATES THIS:

"I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd. Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father." John 10:14-18

NOTE: THE POWER OR AUTHORITY TO LAY IT DOWN AND TO TAKE IT AGAIN WAS BY THE COMMANDMENT OF HIS FATHER NOT HIS OWN COMMANDMENT

[Parade Orange]

ooo good point

a DIVINE command was made

speaking it to existance!

hmmm good thought

[Overaged]

I don't understand how this isn't exactly like my Best Buy analogy. Can you try to clarify? My question was how can Jesus pay the price of eternal separation from God without being eternally separated from God?

How do you see the comment Jesus made when He said: "Father; why hast thou forsaken me?"

[John317]

JESUS CHRIST STATES THIS:

"I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd. Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father." John 10:14-18

NOTE: THE POWER OR AUTHORITY TO LAY IT DOWN AND TO TAKE IT AGAIN WAS BY THE COMMANDMENT OF HIS FATHER NOT HIS OWN COMMANDMENT

Jesus Christ wanted people to know that He didn't come on his own initiative, but everything He did and said was the commandment of God the Father. Jesus was totally dependent upon the Father for everything. Jesus didn't walk the earth as God Almighty but as the Son of man, a human being. He was our example.

Yet when the eternal Word of God became a man, He did not cease to be God. He was God essentially and in the highest sense. As the Son of God He was equal with the Father, the second Person of the Godhead, the "I AM" (John 8: 58).

The record is, "In Him was life." Speaking of His body, Jesus said, "Destroy this temple and I will raise it up" (John 2: 19, 21). Jesus Christ was/is the self-existent Son of God.

[John317]

....However it does not say that Jesus Christ "overcame" in the same way we are to overcome.

....The Bible does not ever say that Jesus Christ overcame sin the same way you and I overcome.

You keep wanting to make everything fit into our miniscule human "box" and that includes God which is why you "humanly create" a God and a Savior that is like your "human sinful self".

Rev. 3:21

The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.

NOTE: The above verse says, "The one who conquers as [like] I conquered..." How did Jesus conquer? By the power of the Holy Spirit in His life.

1 John 2:6

whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

1 John 3:3

And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.

[Dr. Waite]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Waite

JESUS CHRIST STATES THIS:

"I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd. Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father." John 10:14-18

NOTE: THE POWER OR AUTHORITY TO LAY IT DOWN AND TO TAKE IT AGAIN WAS BY THE COMMANDMENT OF HIS FATHER NOT HIS OWN COMMANDMENT

Jesus Christ wanted people to know that He didn't come on his own initiative, but everything He did and said was the commandment of God the Father. Jesus was totally dependent upon the Father for everything. Jesus didn't walk the earth as God Almighty but as the Son of man, a human being. He was our example.

Yet when the eternal Word of God became a man, He did not cease to be God. He was God essentially and in the highest sense. As the Son of God He was equal with the Father, the second Person of the Godhead, the "I AM" (John 8: 58).

The record is, "In Him was life." Speaking of His body, Jesus said, "Destroy this temple and I will raise it up" (John 2: 19, 21). Jesus Christ was/is the self-existent Son of God.

HOWEVER, THE LIFE "WITHIN HIMSELF" WAS GIVEN TO HIM FROM HIS FATHER. IT DID NOT ORIGINATE FROM JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF. SEE JOHN 5:26

"For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself"

[John317]

The record is, "In Him was life." Speaking of His body, Jesus said, "Destroy this temple and I will raise it up" (John 2: 19, 21). Jesus Christ was/is the self-existent Son of God.

Originally Posted By: Dr. Waite

HOWEVER, THE LIFE "WITHIN HIMSELF" WAS GIVEN TO HIM FROM HIS FATHER. IT DID NOT ORIGINATE FROM JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF. SEE JOHN 5:26

"For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself"

The eternal Word was self-existent and was God Himself. John 1: 1. When it says, "and the Word was God," the original Greek signifies that "what God was, the Word was." That is to say, whatever we can say about God can also be said about the Word. (See the Revised English Version.)

Yet as God's human Son on this earth, He was totally dependent upon God for all things, including life. We have to distinguish between the eternal Son of God and the man Jesus. When Jesus said He was thirsty or hungry, we are not to think that God was thirsty or hungry.

Similarly, the eternal Word didn't receive life from the Father but was self-existent. Jesus the God-man received everything from His Father. God was literally His Father. As the most ancient manuscripts of John 1: 18 say, Jesus of Nazareth was the only born God. So the eternal Son of God became the Son of God in a new sense when He was born as a human being on this earth. It's in that sense that the Father gave the Son to have life in Himself.

[BobRyan]

The second death consists of special "torment and suffering" according to Rev 14:10.

In Luke 12 the second death is said to apply the "stripes" - the "torment" that each person deserves - those who knew much and yet chose hell - receive many lashes of torment - and those who did not have as much light and yet chose hell - receive less by comparison.

Jesus took ALL the "stripes" for all sin. In 1John 2 "He is the ATONING sacrifice for our SINS and not for OUR sins only but for the SINS of the whole World".

Exact payment of the exact debt of pain and suffering owed.

thus when a person dies the FIRST death - where they do not pay the pain and suffering owed - Jesus does not even count it as death (see John 11).

In fact Ezek 18 says that the saints do not die - only the wicked die - because only the wicked suffer the pain and suffering of the 2nd death.

in Christ,

Bob

[John317]

I don't understand how this isn't exactly like my Best Buy analogy. Can you try to clarify? My question was how can Jesus pay the price of eternal separation from God without being eternally separated from God?

There's a very real sense in which God's Son died the eternal death. The Person who was the eternal Word (John 1: 1) ceased to exist when He became a human being. Before coming to this earth, the Word was in the form of God. But when He voluntarily took our fallen human nature, He took the form of a servant, and He will never again be in the form of God.

Therefore, God the Father really lost His Son, yet because of Christ's death, the Father has gained many millions of other sons.

Prior to coming as a human to this world, the eternal Son of God was the exact expression of His Father in every way. He still expresses the Father, but not in the same way that He expressed the FAther before He assumed human nature. Christ will forever be a man. He expresses the Father in the flesh, which is different from expressing Him in the form of God in all His glory.

There's also the fact that from the time of his birth to the day He died, Jesus Christ developed a human personality, so in this sense, Jesus of Nazareth does not have the same personality as the Word of God prior to coming to this earth as a baby.

Think of the loss to the Father, who had spent all eternity with the Word. Now that Word-- as He existed in eternity past-- is forever gone.

And think of the loss to the Word, who had spent all eternity with the Father in intimate association. That relationship is forever gone, to be replaced by a different kind of relationship, for He is now the God-Man. For God to become a man was not the same as God becoming an angel. That would have been a great step down for God. But God took one step still lower than an angel. That would be similar to a man going one step lower than a mammal. What is one step lower than the animals? Insects. So it would be more like a man becoming an insect forever! That is what God did in becoming a human being. And He did it out of love for you and me. I don't understand it. I can't really even fathom such an amazing love. But I will accept it and thank Him for all eternity. He deserves it, don't you agree?

[Dr. Waite]

John:

CHRIST DID NOT SAY THAT WHAT HE SAID IN JOHN 5:26 ONLY APPLIED TO HIM AS THE SON OF MAN OR IN THE HUMAN SENSE. YOU NEED TO LOOK AT THE CONTEXT. IN VERSE 25 HE REFERS TO HIMSELF AS THE "SON OF GOD" AND TAKES ABOUT THE VOICE OF THE SON OF GOD AND THE DEAD HEARING THAT VOICE. IT IS VERY CLEAR THAT THE SOURCE OF THIS "LIFE WITHIN HIMSELF" IS HIS FATHER AND NOT CHRIST HIMSELF.

[Robert]

The Person who was the eternal Word (John 1: 1) ceased to exist when He became a human being. Before coming to this earth, the Word was in the form of God. But when He voluntarily took our fallen human nature, He took the form of a servant, and He will never again be in the form of God.

John, I have to disagree. Christ is both divine and human today. He is both God and human. The human has been glorified....It is free from indwelling sin and immortal.

[Robert]

CASE IS NOT SETTLED!

So when Christ cried out "My God, My God why have You forsaken Me?" Christ was just kidding?

Ellen White is clear....Christ couldn't see beyond the grave. If His Divinity had been functioning He would have been able to see His resurrection, but He couldn't.

Keep in mind that before the incarnation Christ must of handed the independent use of His deity over to His Father. In so doing God made Him the Son of Mankind.

As the 2nd Adam Christ was limited to our humanity. Therefore on the cross Christ experienced the 2nd death - which is goodbye of life forever - no hope of a resurrection. Christ died thinking it was forever. This reveals the agape of Christ. He was willing to take our death (2nd death) so that we could have heaven in His place. That's selfless love.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

The Person who was the eternal Word (John 1: 1) ceased to exist when He became a human being. Before coming to this earth, the Word was in the form of God. But when He voluntarily took our fallen human nature, He took the form of a servant, and He will never again be in the form of God.

John, I have to disagree. Christ is both divine and human today. He is both God and human. The human has been glorified....It is free from indwelling sin and immortal.

I'm not saying he isn't both divine and human. He certainly is. But He was only divine before, and He hadn't developed a human pesonality. Today He is a human being. He wasn't a human before Bethlehem. He will forever be human from now on. I am simply saying, then, that He is different than He was in eternity past.

[Dr. Waite]

AMEN and FURTHERMORE:

Christ did not know if his sacrifice was accepted until He ascended to his Father and his God. See John 20:17

[John317]