DOJ: Feds Can Tell Church Who Its Ministers Will Be

[Guest]

In yet another stunning attack on freedom of religion, President Barack Obama's Justice Department asked the Supreme Court last week to give the federal government the power to tell a church who its ministers will be.

The case involves a former teacher at Lutheran school, who along with the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission is pushing a claim that a Lutheran congregation should be forced to restore her ministry position.

Americans United for Separation of Church and State and American Atheists, Inc. have filed briefs siding with the Obama administration against the church.

The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints, the Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations, and the American Center for Law and Justice are among those who have filed briefs supporting the Lutherans.

In 1999, the Hosanna-Tabor Evangelical Lutheran Church and School in Redford, Mich., hired Cheryl Perich to be a lay teacher on a one-year contract in its kindergarten.

The next year, Perich became a "called" teacher at the school after she became a commissioned minister in the church.

"To receive a call, a candidate must be selected by a local church congregation," said a brief the church submitted to the Supreme Court that was prepared by lawyers at the Beckett Fund for Religious Liberty and Douglas Laycock of the University of Virginia Law School.

"At Hosanna-Tabor, the school board typically presents a choice of candidates to the congregation, and after prayerfully considering the candidates, the congregation extends a call via congregational vote," the brief said. "Once the call has been accepted, the candidate is installed in office via the public rite of 'commissioning,' and is recognized as a 'Minister of Religion, Commissioned' — also known as a 'commissioned minister.'"

As a minister in the school, Perich taught religious classes, led students in prayer and performed other religious tasks. She was also expected to integrate the teaching of the Lutheran faith into all so-called "secular" classes, including math, science, social studies and art.

In 2004, Perich was diagnosed with narcolepsy and was unable to teach the fall semester. In January 2005, when she could not return, the school hired another teacher to take her place during the spring.

Later that month, according to a brief filed by the Justice Department's Office of the Solicitor General, Perich informed the school's principal, Stacey Hoeft, via email that she would be able to return to work the following month.

The principal informed her they had already hired a replacement teacher for the rest of the year.

The congregation then voted to ask Perich for a "peaceful release from her call."

"'Peaceful release' is a religious act by which a congregation and a called minister agree to release one another from the mutual obligations of the call," says the brief submitted by the church.

"Peaceful releases are common, and they leave the called minister in good standing and eligible for a new call."

Perich declined to be peacefully released. In late February, she showed up at the school and met with Principal Hoeft.

"Later that day, Perich told Hoeft that if she were not reinstated, she would sue the church," said the church's brief. "Hoeft immediately asked Perich if that were what she really meant, because a lawsuit would clearly violate the church's conflict resolution policy applicable to called employees. Perich repeated the threat."

The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod explained this teaching in its own brief: "St. Paul teaches in his first letter to the Corinthians that Christians should generally resolve their disputes internally without going to the secular courts for relief." For this reason, the church has developed procedures for settling internal disputes.

A few weeks after the meeting between Perich and Hoeft, the Hosanna-Tabor congregation voted to "rescind Perich's call" because she had threatened to sue the church contrary to the church's teaching.

"The Equal Employment Opportunity Commission filed a complaint against the church under the Americans With Disabilities Act, alleging a single count of retaliation," says the church's brief. "Perich intervened, alleging the same retaliation claim and adding a retaliation claim under state law. Neither complaint alleges disability discrimination. Both complaints request an order reinstating Perich to her former position as a commissioned minister, together with back pay, compensatory damages, punitive damages, and injunctive relief ordering new 'policies, practices, and programs' at the church."

The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod told the court in its brief that its views on the ministry and the settlement of disputes may not be "widely shared" or "widely understood." "But," the church said, "they have been the views of orthodox Lutherans for centuries."

Acting Deputy Solicitor General Leondra Kruger told the court, during oral arguments, that the federal government should be able to trump the church on these decisions.

"Their submission is that the hiring and firing decisions with respect to parochial school teachers and with respect to priests is categorically off limits," said Kruger. "And we think that that is a rule that is insufficiently attentive to the relative public and private interests at stake, interests that this court has repeatedly recognized are important in determining freedom of association claims."

Kruger contended this did not mean the government could order the Catholic Church to ordain female priests. But, even then, according to her argument, it would be a matter of the government weighing "the relative public and private interests at stake."

What is at stake is the First Amendment and the religious freedom of all Americans.

http://www.cnsnews.com/blog/terence-p-jeffrey/doj-feds-can-tell-church-who-its-ministers-will-be

[Dr. Shane]

She got sick and missed so much work that she lost her job. Is that right? If so, she isn't the first one. I guess I don't understand why so many people are upset about it.

[Overaged]

"Later that day, Perich told Hoeft that if she were not reinstated, she would sue the church," said the church's brief. "Hoeft immediately asked Perich if that were what she really meant, because a lawsuit would clearly violate the church's conflict resolution policy applicable to called employees. Perich repeated the threat."

Both complaints request an order reinstating Perich to her former position as a commissioned minister, together with back pay, compensatory damages, punitive damages, and injunctive relief ordering new 'policies, practices, and programs' at the church."

Big business lawsuits like this are becoming quite mainstream and "acceptable;" even with Adventists and their Sabbath lawsuits

Do we want separation of church and state or do we prefer a bulging bank account from our "settlements?"

[Dr. Rich]

Please do some research and you will find that most, if not all, Article III Courts (the Judicial branch) and State Courts have now become corporations. Interestingly, the major stock holders are JP Morgan Chase and other Federal Reserve Banks.

501©3 churches are all corporations and therefore are regulated by by those who give it permissions to function. How sad!

[Tom Wetmore]

That is just plain nonsense.

Why don't you spare us the trouble and just tell us the source of that idea.

[Dr. Rich]

Ok Tom, Check out Dun and Bradstreets--Not my words! Here is what they said for Oregon Courts:

Jackson County Circuit Court

D&B D-U-N-S® 60-143-9896

Address 100 S Oakdale Ave, Medford, OR 97501

Phone number 541-776-7171

Secondary Business Name Judicary Crts of The State Ore

Year Started n/a

Public / Private private

Legal Structure n/a

Business Structure branch

Subsidiary Indicator Non-Subsidiary

Top Executive Mr Ross G Davis - Branch Manager

Annual Sales n/a

Annual Sales % Change (3 Yr) n/a

Employees Here 65

Total Employees n/a

Employees Total % Change (3 Yr) n/a

Domestic Ultimate Parent State Of Oregon D-U-N-S 04-300-8317

Domestic Ultimate Location Salem, OR

Headquarters D&B D-U-N-S Number 36-070-5735

Headquarters Name Judicary Crts Of The State Ore

Headquarters Location Salem, OR

County Jackson

Industry Sector(s)

Sic 92110000 - Courts

D&B Marketing Pre-Screen Score

D&B Marketing Pre-Screen Score Low Risk

D&B IT Demand Profile

Estimated Presence of a Network 80% or more

Estimated Number of Nodes 60 - 99

Estimated Presence of a WAN 40% or more

Estimated Number of PCs 70

[Dr. Rich]

Tom: Check this out too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJNcr7yJM0o

Here is the thing Tom, not ONE Article III court can provide for the 7th Amendment right. And not ONE State Court can either. If you can find one, you would be the first one to do this as I have checked with every State Judicial Counsel and not one of them could provide for this right.

[Tom Wetmore]

THe D&B outline report does not even remotely suggest the courts in Oregon are corporations, much less owned by JP Morgan Chase or the Federal Reserve Banks. Look under the line for "Legal Structure". It says "n/a". That is the line where D&B will note if the entity in question is a corporation, LLP, LLC, Partnership, Trust, unincorporated association, etc. In this report, D&B takes a pass by indicating "n/a". That can be rendered as "not applicable" or "not available". Either way it doesn't say the Oregon Courts are corporations.

You are going to have to do better than that.

[Tom Wetmore]

I don't see where the YouTube video had anything really to do with the 7th Amendment (right to jury trial). And neither provides an answer, much less proof, of your preposterous claim about the judiciary being corporations owned by JP Morgan Chase and the Federal Reserve Banks.

If you plan to take us on a grand tour of the rabbit warren of your twisted ideas of the legal system, just stop right now.

[Dr. Rich]

Ok Tom, nuff said. If you want to believe what you were told in law school, that is entirely your choice.

[Guest]

If you plan to take us on a grand tour of the rabbit warren of your twisted ideas of the legal system, just stop right now.

Aww come on, let's take the tour. It'll be fun.

[Tom Wetmore]

You are a sick man!

[Overaged]

LOL; he can be cured!! Maria will straighten him out!

[Gibs]

All 501c3 compliant churches are under the government "thumb" and they have pressed that thumb down of aome. Ask Texe Marrs for one. He gave up the 501c3 compliancy so he could preach the truth of not only his beliefs of the Bible but of governmet, gays, abortion or whatever. He demanded his liberty of free speach and so far still has it. Yes the time is coming it will be taken and that "thumb" will come down harder on all who are under it. Just Watch!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Tom Wetmore]

The actual subject of this thread is the Hosanna-Tabor case before the US Supreme Court. Here is the unanimous decision of the Court announced just this week.

http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/11pdf/10-553.pdf

I think that if you take the time to read the Court's opinion you will find that it does not remotely reflect the hysterical fears and other lunacy expressed here.

(For those intimidated by the length (34 pages, which is modest by usual standards...), just read the Syllabus (pages 1-5). It is a good summary of the opinion.)

[Woody]

thanks Tom

[Gibs]

In the first place no one should go to the state to settle a Christian church dispute. If in fact it is truly a Christian Church righteousness will be done there. If it doesn't then it is time to depart from it. The Church, if it is the true one will render full righteousness and no fault will be found the same as no fault can be found in God Himself. But is the church pure?, and the one she is of?

Where is righeousness anymore? Where can it be found anymore among men? Not many places I am sure.

The question arises, how can we have separation of the church and state when the members of them go to the state in a dispute? The state is invited in. So who is to blame. The pew sitter.

Will we see this go a lot deeper? I see it coming. We are needing our deliverer.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gerr]

The actual subject of this thread is the Hosanna-Tabor case before the US Supreme Court. Here is the unanimous decision of the Court announced just this week.

http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/11pdf/10-553.pdf

I think that if you take the time to read the Court's opinion you will find that it does not remotely reflect the hysterical fears and other lunacy expressed here.

(For those intimidated by the length (34 pages, which is modest by usual standards...), just read the Syllabus (pages 1-5). It is a good summary of the opinion.)

I think this is the case I just read about this week that affirmed the right of the church to in fact discriminate. The Supreme Court realized that if the church could not discriminate, it would be forced to employ ministers who might/would be against the doctrines of the church.

[olger]

paul would turn over in his grave.

[wheelcat]

I Cor. 1:6 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?

1Cr 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

[Dr. Rich]

All 501c3 compliant churches are under the government "thumb" and they have pressed that thumb down of aome. Ask Texe Marrs for one. He gave up the 501c3 compliancy so he could preach the truth of not only his beliefs of the Bible but of governmet, gays, abortion or whatever. He demanded his liberty of free speach and so far still has it. Yes the time is coming it will be taken and that "thumb" will come down harder on all who are under it. Just Watch!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Thanks Gibs, as I was the one who helped Texe Marrs. But Attorneys like Tom have blinders on and do not know the difference between Lawful and Legal, nor do the know the difference between De Jure and De Facto. However, they are not to blame as their 'practice' is in statute law only (civil or criminal).

Anything "legal" has been legislated and therefore become statutory. Lawful on the otherhand comes from the common law and it comes from the last 6 of the ten commandments. Deut. 6:17 points out the difference between lawful and legal. Commandments are not legislative in nature but the statues are. The common law is superior than all legislative statues an regulations and codes because a statue is restriced to a 'group' while the common law is lawful to all.

A 501©3 non profit is incorporated and controled by the government that allowed it to be set up and that is why it must apply for exemption.

On the otherhand, a non or unincorporated church organization entity (the "otherwise" in tax law) is immune anyway from tax or corporate law and statutes as it is formed under the common law by a contract. Almost all church organizations prior to 1933 were this type until they were tricked into applying for exemption and then had to become a 501©3 as Texe Marrs and many others have sadly and suddenly found out.

The "otherwise" have a 7th Amendment Right, something that attorneys have no clue about because lawschools don't teach it. But thats enought for now...

[Tom Wetmore]

You know not whereof you speak... But I do. What you are saying is utter nonsense. (It is as foolish as your ideas about Paul...)

I have got news for you that unincorporated churches and organizations are just as subject to tax law as are the ones incorporated. An entity identified in 501©(3) does not have to be incorporated. Churches regardless of what organizational form they take are exempt from applying to the IRS for exemption. They are automatically exempt as a matter of law. Voluntarily applying for recognition by the IRS does not make them any more subject to tax law. Regardless of whether they apply or not they are classified under 501©(3).

[Dr. Rich]

LOL, go your way and believe what you want but I JUST received an official letter from them telling me that they have investigated the issue and can't find any law that applies to the 'type' of churches I help set up! So, come over to my office if you would like to see it! What is 'it' about the 1st Amendment Right that you don't understand? What is it about "NO LAW" that you don't understand?