Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted October 16, 2011 Administrators Share Posted October 16, 2011 Yep, let's live up to the curse of sin... Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted October 16, 2011 Moderators Share Posted October 16, 2011 ... Imagine if the early church had to decide every 2-5 years whether or not to require circumcision for the Gentiles. Every annual council, every GC meeting the same motions appear. I'm surprised that the world church allows this to be done. The world church has already spoken. How many times does it have to give its decision? I believe that eventually the same strategy will be used to push the gay agenda, which is for the church to recognize gay partnerships and practicing gays as members. Fritz Guy and some pastors in the church have already come out in favor of it. Of course it would lead to practicing gay pastors and church officers, which is what the gay agenda is pushing for. They won't stop until they get what they want. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted October 16, 2011 Moderators Share Posted October 16, 2011 Yep, let's live up to the curse of sin... We can be sure that humanity will do exactly that until the second coming. There's nothing in either the Bible or the Spirit of prophecy to indicate God wants His directions in this regard to be changed. Humanity is still sinful, and as long as that's true, God's arrangement for the family and the church should remain in place. In heaven, 1/3 of the angels concluded that they were so wise and mature that they didn't need God's rules any more. They couldn't be trusted in that decision, and neither can fallen humanity. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted October 16, 2011 Administrators Share Posted October 16, 2011 The church's policies are not like the law of the Medes and the Persians... What you are saying is that no issue once decided can ever be revisited or reconsidered. That's just foolishness! Just like throwing the gay boogie man at the discussion... We been round this bush too many times already. The issues are not the same. Women in Ministry is not a moral issue. Homosexual behavior is. But like Godwin's law that eventually every internet argument eventually get's the Hitler treatment, among Adventists, eventually this discussion gets the gay hysteria treatment. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SivartM Posted October 16, 2011 Share Posted October 16, 2011 Originally Posted By: doug yowell ... Imagine if the early church had to decide every 2-5 years whether or not to require circumcision for the Gentiles. Every annual council, every GC meeting the same motions appear. I'm surprised that the world church allows this to be done. The world church has already spoken. How many times does it have to give its decision? As long as it has a democratic government. If you have a problem with democracy, take it up with your representatives and ask them to vote for the installment of a theocracy or whatever it is you'd like. Until that happens, I think people are generally free to bring up the issues that they want to, and ordination happens to be a very popular issue right now. I wouldn't worry about the gays, though; I doubt that will even come up before my grandchildren are gone. Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted October 16, 2011 Members Share Posted October 16, 2011 As long as it has a democratic government. If you have a problem with democracy, take it up with your representatives and ask them to vote for the installment of a theocracy or whatever it is you'd like. Until that happens, I think people are generally free to bring up the issues that they want to, and ordination happens to be a very popular issue right now. I wouldn't worry about the gays, though; I doubt that will even come up before my grandchildren are gone. Yes it is very popular, and I've mentioned this before, the issue is only being brought up by men. Most women that I've talked to are fine the way it is. And as far as the Gay issue, as has been mentioned already, you must of missed it! It has already been brought up, so your grandkids will probably be very much involved!!! Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SivartM Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 I know several women who have been discouraged from ministry because of the ordination issue, and have heard stories about many more. The idea that this is some sort of radical feminist thing is more reasonable in the 70's than now; women's rights are common sense among most women in developed countries, at least with those who haven't had a strict inferiority (or headship, if you prefer that term) theology pounded into their heads all of their lives. It's not a bad thing that men are advocating for women's rights. That's a huge step ahead from a few decades ago. I know that I was exaggerating about my grandchildren. I do remember the conflict at the last GC over the definition of marriage, so I'm sure the gay issue will come up again and more strongly soon, but given my opinion on the topic, that's not a bad thing. Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodenavaklu Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Another [a pajoritive name deleted by the moderator] says And when was the last time you saw someone sitting around it their controlled office working by the sweat of their brow? Read the 'punishment' for males....any males actually doing what is described in Genesis other than the occasional farmer? Didn't think so!!! Yep, we male seem to have slipped under the wire..huh! Just making sure those females stay in their place!Right on you guys! High fives all of you!! Tell me if you support women getting out in the front lines and fighting alongside men. Obviously the women don't. When battalions of the US army were heading off to Afghanistan all the women got themselves pregnant because that was their out from avoiding duty on the front lines and they took it. Compare the number of women working the fields, the mines and the factories compared to the men just so that you can sit in your comfy chair in your office. Just look at the males who will not go into child care because of the pedohysteria mentality of the community today. Have you considered that Adam established his authority over Eve the very moment he laid eyes upon her by calling her woman? Read it up in Genesis 2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodenavaklu Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 I know several women who have been discouraged from ministry because of the ordination issue, and have heard stories about many more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SivartM Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Another [a pajoritive name deleted by the moderator] says Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SivartM Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 And what rights would those be? Would they be the right for the woman to stand up in public transport when all the seats are taken and she is eight months pregnant? Would it also be the right for a woman to have the door slammed in her face by a man rather than held open for a "ladies first" courtesy. Would it be the right for a woman to battle for a place on the lifeboats of the titanic with the men rather than expect them to stand back and let the ladies on first because they didn't have such hangups about women's rights bothering them at the time? You do not know what the women's rights movement is about. Obviously nobody wants a door slammed in their face, and I've never had anyone become angry with me for holding the door open because I hold the door open for people regardless of their gender. That is egalitarianism. Should women be forced to stand on the bus if they are pregnant? Of course not; that could harm their health. Men with similarly disabling conditions should also not be forced to stand. Women are not weak little teapots that will break without men doing everything for them. Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Originally Posted By: doug yowell ... Imagine if the early church had to decide every 2-5 years whether or not to require circumcision for the Gentiles. Every annual council, every GC meeting the same motions appear. I'm surprised that the world church allows this to be done. The world church has already spoken. How many times does it have to give its decision? I believe that eventually the same strategy will be used to push the gay agenda, which is for the church to recognize gay partnerships and practicing gays as members. Fritz Guy and some pastors in the church have already come out in favor of it. Of course it would lead to practicing gay pastors and church officers, which is what the gay agenda is pushing for. They won't stop until they get what they want. Exactly. And when it happens, folks like tOm who say it won't happen will say - it doesn't matter anyway. And they're probably right, it doesn't matter to them. G Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Again, as many do, avoid the issue and the questions. Read again. Give me an example of how men today are following the example of Genesis in their 'punishment'. Your comments shows that you do not know much about women and society, let alone the military. Buts that's okay, carry on with the campaign to keep women in their place!! Adam established his authority...wow..hadn't heard that one before! Adam said it, so there!! Not exactly the real story...oh well!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted October 17, 2011 Administrators Share Posted October 17, 2011 Yes, he asserted and "established" his "authority" at the moment he became the first blamer. It seems he got it from the real Accuser... And God said, "Fine if that is what you want, you are in charge of the disunity you just created." Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosh1182 Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Textus Receptus: Please explain how the passages you cited teach against ordination, merely citing verses without explaining your reasoning is not sufficient because then others must assume what your reasoning is. Please also explain how you understand such passages in light of God's clear choice of females as spiritual leaders and teachers (e.g. Deborah in the Book of Judges and Ellen G. White). Enunciate the principles you believe God is teaching through the passages you cited and then compare them to God's actions in the past. If they don't square up, then perhaps you should consider whether your understanding of the passages you cited are correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 On the other hand, one could see it as the majority stubbornly refusing to listen to the Holy Spirit and voting their own will. Each time it comes up more listen to the Holy Spirit. The church is slowly conforming to God's will. Yes,that's the way it's generally portrayed by it's proponents. God's will by osmosis.Is this the historic way that God's will has been understood? Like the Sabbath? Given there has been no Biblical precedence for the woman being the spiritual head of the home,or the spiritual head of a local church/synagogue how can we safely arrive at this new order of things by trusting that methodology? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Then again, maybe God is ambivalent and the divided vote either reflects that ambivalence or God just wants us to make up our minds on something that He doesn't see as such a burning issue of right or wrong. Most proponents don't believe that God is ambivalent and neither do most opponents. SECC and NAD have long pushed this issue as a moral one, one that is representative of inequality. If supporters of equal opportunity headship don't see it as a moral issue than why do they continue to support it knowing the continuing discord that it sows among the brethren? God is not ambivalent about that."If my food causes my weaker brother to stumble,then too bad, he'll get over it."(I Cor. 8:13 NAD Version) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 And when was the last time you saw someone sitting around it their controlled office working by the sweat of their brow? Read the 'punishment' for males....any males actually doing what is described in Genesis other than the occasional farmer? Didn't think so!!! Yep, we male seem to have slipped under the wire..huh! Just making sure those females stay in their place!Right on you guys! High fives all of you!! Can't you ever bring anything Biblically thoughtful or nonsarcastic to discussion,CoA? Try reading the reason why God cursed the ground in Gen.3:17 Maybe God's curse under the circumstances was actually for man's good. Maybe sinful man could no longer handle the Eden like lifestyle that he once had.And maybe the headship of the man was designed as a blessing under the circumstances for sinful women. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted October 17, 2011 Moderators Share Posted October 17, 2011 ...Just like throwing the gay boogie man at the discussion... We been round this bush too many times already. The issues are not the same. Women in Ministry is not a moral issue. Homosexual behavior is. Anything having to do with God's commands and instructions for the church is a moral issue. I've been watching the gay movements closely since 1970. I was a part of the Gay Liberation Movement in San Diego, and I know where it's headed. They won't stop until all of society, including all the churches, recognizes the practice of homosexuality as normal and good. They will put pressure on the legislatures to pass laws in their favor, even making it illegal to preach that homosexual activities and practices are sinful. There are already SDA pastors and leaders who want to see openly gay members in the church. This started about 1981 when there was a meeting between Fritz Guy and a group of gay SDAs. It is growing and becoming stronger. He favors the recognition by the church of gay couples. There are other pastors and leaders in the SDA church who have the same view. The same thing is happening in our church as has happened before in the churches that now recognize practicing gays among their clergy. As society increasingly recognizes homosexuality as normal and not sinful, the same ideas will affect the SDA church. They already have. Many SDAs no longer consider it a sin as long as gays live in a stable relationship and aren't promiscuous. The people in the church have a different view of it than they had in 1970-1980. If it continues, the time will come when many of the congregations and conferences will cave in to the pressure put on them to accept practicing gays as members and even pastors. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 And when was the last time you saw someone sitting around it their controlled office working by the sweat of their brow? Read the 'punishment' for males....any males actually doing what is described in Genesis other than the occasional farmer? Really? If working in the air conditioned office is such a joy then why does anybody need a vacation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Yes, he asserted and "established" his "authority" at the moment he became the first blamer. It seems he got it from the real Accuser... And God said, "Fine if that is what you want, you are in charge of the disunity you just created." This statement has no basis in the recorded story. Don't forget that Eve blamed before Adam did, and God's curse on both the man and the woman was directly related to their own culpability in the matter.Authority is not established by a blamer, blame is an attempt to wrongly transfer authority to the blamee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 The issues are not the same but the methodology is.I think that's what John has been trying to get at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted October 17, 2011 Moderators Share Posted October 17, 2011 Exactly-- the methodology. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted October 17, 2011 Moderators Share Posted October 17, 2011 Please also explain how you understand such passages in light of God's clear choice of females as spiritual leaders and teachers (e.g. Deborah in the Book of Judges and Ellen G. White). God's personally choosing a woman to be a prophet is quite different from the church choosing women to be pastors, etc. Those are two different kinds of spiritual gifts. It's significant that God generally called only men to be the leaders in Israel. There were no female priests, for instance, no females wrote the Word of God, and none were chosen by Christ to be among the original 12 disciples. But even when God did call women to be in leadership roles-- such as a judge and prophet-- they used it in a way that was different from the way male judges and prophets did. This is not to say that women don't have an important work to do in the church,--- because women definitely do have important ministries in the church-- but their work is different for the reasons mentioned in the Bible. See Paul's reasons given in 1 Cor. 11 and 14. I believe that if the SDA church votes to make women ordained leaders in the world church, including head pastors, etc., the church needs to study what the Bible says about it and only base its decisions on the teachings of Scripture, not on politics or modern social values. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight II Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 And when was the last time you saw someone sitting around it their controlled office working by the sweat of their brow? Read the 'punishment' for males....any males actually doing what is described in Genesis other than the occasional farmer? Didn't think so!!! Yep, we male seem to have slipped under the wire..huh! Just making sure those females stay in their place!Right on you guys! High fives all of you!! You will find a response to everyone of your rejections of the biblical standard in the Bible itself. Including the straw man argument of a dominant abusing Christian husband that God never sanctioned... So what is the basis for your view? The bible? Or post modern feminism? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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