Why I am a former SDA

[John317]

I've been told by SDAs that "the Bible says the second death is eternal". And they like to focus on the national Sunday law theory, which is nowhere mentioned in the Bible.

Do you believe the second death is NOT eternal?

I wouldn't say we "focus" on the national Sunday law, but we do believe the Bible predicts that before Christ returns, the whole world will have to decide whether to obey and worship the true God or whether to obey man's laws. While the Bible doesn't mention "national Sunday law" by name, the concept is certainly clearly taught in Scripture. See Rev. 13 and 14.

[Guest]

Yep, that's right...

http://www.bible-sabbath.com/Sabbath-Sunday/NatSund-L-Marc.pdf

[John317]

...No one takes everything in the Bible literally, and the mark of the beast is a good example of that when we refer to SDAs.

Do you understand "the mark of the beast" to be literal?

Who is the beast? And what is its "mark"?

Originally Posted By: dialguewithus

A verse they ignore in their Bible commentary is Rev. 2:26-28. Maybe the text clashes with their theology.

I'm looking at a copy of the SDA Bible Commentary in front of me as I write, and I see commentary on those verses.

What part of those texts do you believe may clash with our theology?

Seventh-day Adventists have actually written many commentaries on Rev. 2: 26-28.

Three of them are listed below:

Uriah Smith's The Prophecies of Daniel and Revelation, pages 377-381.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ by Ranko Stefanovic, pages 127-133.

God Cares, Vol.2, The Message of Revelation, C. Mervyn Maxwell, pages 106-109.

[John317]

http://www.bible-sabbath.com/Sabbath-Sunday/NatSund-L-Marc.pdf

I don't know how anyone can read this without realizing that the Bible teaches there is coming a National/ International Sunday Law.

[M. T. Cross]

Well if it does happen you can probably count on us pagans and heathens to be on your side as we really hate the law telling people what they can and can't believe.

[aldona]

"They view the words of Ellen White as greater than those of the Bible."

Thats a "figment of your imagination".

Our esteemed GC president has stated clearly and publicly that he wants to see EG White lifted up, that he wants to hear her words quoted more in sermons. Others who have attended his speeches have said that EG White was quoted in them far more than the Bible.

Not only is this attitude NOT a figment of our imaginations, it is being actively promoted by the leadership of the denomination.

AJ

[John317]

Our esteemed GC president has stated clearly and publicly that he wants to see EG White lifted up, that he wants to hear her words quoted more in sermons. Others who have attended his speeches have said that EG White was quoted in them far more than the Bible.

Not only is this attitude NOT a figment of our imaginations, it is being actively promoted by the leadership of the denomination.

I agree with our esteemed GC president, and he is not saying that the words of Ellen White are greater than those of the Bible. The SDA church's understanding of the relationship between the Bible and Ellen White's prophetic ministry is the same today as it has always been. The Bible is our standard of faith and doctrine, and Ellen White's writings are inspired by God for the edification of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

[ClubV12]

I like you Emptycross, that was never an issue for me, our opinions differ significantly but thats not a factor for me in getting along with someone or not.

The ten commandments are not just another interesting view point on life to consider along with nine heathen view points or Buddha's principles of life. For a Christian there is no middle ground, you accept the ten commandments as the word of God, or you don't. You either serve God, or you don't. I appreciate the invitation to compare the nine heathen principles to the ten commandments, but I have no interest or burden to study the nine or any other false religion philosophy. Perhaps someone else might want to take that on with you?

I'm not trying to "prove" anything, Christianity doesn't work that way. That is the job of the Holy Spirit. Being as your an ex-Adventist there is very little that can be said that you have not already heard. I believe what Paul had to say about a case like this, your conscience is "seared". All I can do is offer the truth, as it is in the bible and the Spirit of Prophecy. It's your choice what to accept and what to reject.

I would encourage you to consider your spiritual condition carefully, you have been given great light Emptycross, come home.

[Bravus]

Having caught up with what was posted in this thread while I slept, a couple of things:

1. fccool offered the statement about 'there are two kinds of people, non-religious and simpletons' as an example of a silly statement, not as something he believes. Someone pulled it out of that context, then we've had half a dozen serious rebuttals. I know the threads move fast, but it's good to read/listen so we don't assume people are saying the opposite of what they are actually saying.

2. Thanks, Stan, for your 'where can you go?' Question. I wonder does it imply within it (I'm asking, not assuming) a limitation to choosing from among other religious denominations, with possibly atheism thrown in as an undesirable alternative? I think I've already said that if it came down to doctrinal correctness I'd stay SDA, but it doesn't. As to where I can go, where I am is grand. Perhaps I'll talk a little more about that when I'm not typing on my phone.

3. Some people's love feels an awful lot like contempt.

[John317]

Well if it [the Sunday law] does happen you can probably count on us pagans and heathens to be on your side as we really hate the law telling people what they can and can't believe.

But unless a person is sealed by the seal of God (by the sealing angel), he won't have the spiritual strength and desire to do what's right under the circumstances in which he finds himself. The presence of the Holy Spirit is the only reason anyone has a desire to do right and is willing to die rather than disobey God.

If we aren't learning now to obey God's commmandments under all circumstances, there's no reason to believe we will obey God at that time when obedience to Him will mean death.

Rev. 13:8

and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain.

Rev. 13:15

And it was allowed to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast might even speak and might cause those who would not worship the image of the beast to be slain.

NOTE: The Bible teaches that only a relatively small group of people who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ, will NOT worship the beast. Apart from them, all the world will worship the image of the beast and receive his mark on the forehead or on the hand.

[M. T. Cross]

I understand your viewpoint on that John.

My counter point is that my belief is that the Divine has sent a number of messages to a number of peoples. I truly believe that those that within their heart have sincerely dedicated themselves to a spiritual wellness and purety will find the strength to withstand evil such as what you describe. Regardless of religious affiliation.

[Woody]

Quote:

Our esteemed GC president has stated clearly and publicly that he wants to see EG White lifted up, that he wants to hear her words quoted more in sermons. Others who have attended his speeches have said that EG White was quoted in them far more than the Bible.

Not only is this attitude NOT a figment of our imaginations, it is being actively promoted by the leadership of the denomination.

AJ

This is a real shame as they are not following our prophet's own instructions. Ellen White stated that she should never be quoted in a sermon.

[olger]

Were you in Wilmington, Redwood?

the G

[Woody]

Quote:

Some people's love feels an awful lot like contempt

Unfortunately that is common among some religious extremists.

[John317]

This is a real shame as they are not following our prophet's own instructions. Ellen White stated that she should never be quoted in a sermon.

Are you sure this is what she actually said?

That would mean it's OK to quote anyone else, including the pope, but it is wrong to quote God's last-day prophet. Is this your view?

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Woody

This is a real shame as they are not following our prophet's own instructions. Ellen White stated that she should never be quoted in a sermon.

Are you sure this is what she actually said?

That would mean it's OK to quote anyone else, including the pope, but it is wrong to quote God's last-day prophet. Is this your view?

No. I don't necessarily agree with her. But I do agree that she is often overdone. She stated that only the Bible should be quoted during a sermon. I think that might be a little extreme. And I really don't like extremes.

When it is in the extreme (quoting her) I do often times wish that her instructions were followed.

[ClubV12]

I do believe a statement like that would be entirely out of context. I love to hear Ellen White referrences in a sermon or anywhere else for that matter. I am thankful the GC is taking a brave stand on this issue.

[Woody]

Club - I'm sorry. I respect that you are sincere. But I am laughing. A respectful laugh I hope. But - indeed whether something is in or out of context is certainly in the eye of the beholder.

[John317]

...The Forum attracts all sorts of people who aren't SDA or who aren't active, committed SDAs, and many others who are downright anti-SDA and/or anti-EGW and anti-Bible. It would be helpful if people would identify themselves as SDA or non-SDA, etc., but very few will do it for some reason.

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

Yeah, it would make it so much easier. Then we could read the label and really not pay any attention to what they actually say before we yell "AMEN!", excoriate them, or just plain ignore them. We wouldn't have to read what they say anymore before we launch into our preset agenda...

Life would be so much easier if everyone really had a visible label marked in their forehead ...

That isn't true, Tom. Is that what you do?

It has do with knowing where people are coming from. HAVING NO SECRETS. Why does anyone need to be secretive about who he/she is and where they're coming from?

Bravus has decided not to have any more secrets about his position in regard to the SDA church and its doctrines, and I think that's a good thing. It would be great if everyone did the same, I think.

[ClubV12]

If it's in the eye of the beholder there is no context! The whole purpose of context is applied to virtually every statement around us all the time. What you've got here is a "sound bite", thats what Faux News does to politicians.

If context isn't a concern we could try a literal application. I believe she said something like only the words of the bible should be used. So, the Preacher just opens the bible and starts reading, no other comments are allowed!

The context is this, only the bible truth should be presented from the pulpit. Not the devisings of men or some interesting story about Buddha or what happened on the news last night or some false theology or new theory.

Besides, rumor has it Ellen White usually quoted herself while speaking at church,,,, and around the dinner table, in the garden and.... :)

[Bravus]

I would like to clarify something: I have been accused of having a secret position that I wouldn't own up to for years on this board. It wasn't true then and it isn't true now. I've outlined a few issues, and stated that in aggregate I think they mean that, if I have to tick one box, it would be the 'former SDA' one. I don't think I can honestly tick the 'SDA' box, given some quite fundamental doctrinal differences.

But the ability to say what I am not does not actually make it any easier to say clearly and precisely what I *am*. I'll give it a bash in a minute, but I think it's important to clarify that, when I say it's difficult to describe my position, it's *not* that I have a true position that is absolutely clear to me but am dissembling, lying or hiding. It's that the position itself is not that clear to me.

I reject Shane's insulting 'terminally unique' labeling: the reason for the difficulty of finding a label is not about me being a unique snowflake, it's a historical matter of their not being a convenient readymade label. Far from thinking I am unique, I think there are many, many people in the same situation as me, and we all struggle to try to find a label that works.

Again, it's a lot easier to say what I'm not than what I am. I'm not a pagan, a heathen or an atheist. I'm not Hindu, Buddhist or Muslim. I'm not SDA, Reformed SDA, COG, Anglican, Catholic, Scientologist or Ba'hai. Next post will be an attempt to describe who and what I am and believe.

[M. T. Cross]

that was a struggle I had when joining.... where else could I do?

When I spoke with local Church leaders, they would tell me not to look at the people, but look to Jesus.

Well that is amount the stupidest thing I ever heard. A cop out for their lack of leadership. YOu can tell them by their fruits. right? They were fruity.

I never truly understood this whole don't look to the people thing.

Without the people the church is empty. Its just a set of doctrines written in a book wasting away. I write some church doctrines in like the next 15 minutes. It would amount to nothing and be nothing if there were no people following them.

The people are the purpose. To gather with and to study with and to learn together (in a perfect world that is) People that have chosen to follow a doctrine together.

Of course one looks at the people. You look and you see how those doctrines and teachings have effected their lives. Are they for the most part decent people living up to a high standard of spirituality? Or are they pious jerks that are more often hypocritical than spiritually sound. Based on that one will again look at the teachings and doctrines of said church.

I really have to say as a foot note. I came to ClubAdventist to rid myself of some demons of my past. To see if Adventists really are the pious jerks I thought them to be. Its very confusing LOL. Cause there is a fair number here that live up to what I remember and then there is a fair number that are some of the coolest people I have met on the net. But yes - in light of a religious denomination - of course we look to the people

[John317]

But haven't you said before that you are close to being atheist or agnostic and that you are barely hanging on to God?

Do you believe in the second coming as the Bible describes it-- that Christ will return with all his angels, destroy the wicked, raise the dead and take his people back to heaven?

[Bravus]

Not playing that game, John317: I've said it before. Your catechism of questions, which I assume don't sound aggressive in your head, sound very aggressive on the page. They also lead the discussion down an ever-narrowing path of your design. I'm just not interested in going there. I will attempt to describe myself in my own terms, for my own purposes.

[Woody]

Quote:

Besides, rumor has it Ellen White usually quoted herself while speaking at church,,,, and around the dinner table, in the garden and....

According to Ellen White it is okay to quote her around the dinner table and in the garden - but not in the pulpit.