Have you been an Adventist all of your life?

[Woody]

Why do I dislike this question?

Okay - I've made the statement that "I've been an Adventist all my life". But that really is not true. One can not be an Adventist at the age of 2 . Otherwise we are like the Catholics who baptize their babies.

Thanks for letting me aire my pet peeve.

I feel much better now.

[Gail]

LOL No such thing as salvation by proxy or association, only by the atoning sacrifice and life and mediation of Jesus Christ

How about "Were you raised up in the church?" Does that sound better?

[ClubV12]

Not so fast....

(digs through the tool box to find a monkey wrench to throw in the works).

During the Saints resurrection we are told the "little ones" wing their way to their parents. Of course those without parents will fly to an angel (a specific angel appointed for that child I would think).

That brings up a couple of thoughts. WHO are these "little ones"? And by what merits are they justified for eternal life? I suspect it will be related to our parentage in some way. Will ALL the "little ones" be raised, regardless of their parentage? At what age do we pass from the mystery of merits based on some external environment to the "choice" of choosing to love God? Accountability in other words. Sister White does say even very young children can grasp the prinicples of salvation and recognize the Saviour and accept Him. How young is "very young"?

Sister White also spoke of some persons who will NEVER be resurrected, not Saint, not sinner, not in the first or the second resurrection! They lived, they died, thats it, no judgment of any kind. She is referring primarily to slaves who were so badly treated and under such subjection to their masters that they were little more than "beasts of the field" with no free will, no choice in their life. She says it would not be safe to bring them into the heavenly city because they have never been exposed to the possibility of choice, of sin. Even the created beings on other planets have been given a choice, they to have a tree of knowledge of good and evil, but have never eaten from it. Only THIS planet has fallen.

Back to the "little ones". I suspect those that are not sufficiently mentally developed to have made ANY choice at all would be much like the slaves. Those who are "very young" but have spiritual parents have at least been presented the concept of right vs wrong, the fundamentals of the plan of salvation, a knowledge of Jesus and a childs faith. Even at "two years old".

As I recall, Sister White made some comment about the "character being set" by age two.

....picks up the monkey wrench and wanders off... :)

[Gail]

I used to teach in the lower divisions in Sabbath School and it was common to note spiritual awakenings in small children. Sometimes I think that they were more spiritual than many older ones.

[abelisle]

Actually Woody, this is a good question because I believe people who were born into Adventism have a completely different mindset than those converted into Adventism.

I myself was born into Adventism - thoroughly indoctrinated from a child and relatively conservative until I started to think for myself (but that's a whole other area akin to Bravus' one)

I think you can see the divide here on this forum. I might be wrong but it seems that the new converts are more conservative than the old-timers? What say you?

Alex

[Woody]

Quote:

I think you can see the divide here on this forum. I might be wrong but it seems that the new converts are more conservative than the old-timers? What say you?

Alex

I say - Give them time and they will become completely converted as well as we have become. We must be patient though. If we love them enough despite their ignorance - they will come through. :)

[olger]

Converted to Adventism through much sacrifice and the joy He brought still warms my heart.

[Gail]

Boy... this is revving up to be a good discussion, I can tell!

[Woody]

While this was not the intended direction of this thread - it is a good discussion.

Alden Thompsen discusses at great length the stages of Christianity. One of the first baby steps is conservativism. Babies in the faith need lots of rules. They relate to God based on rules and obedience. And as Alden says - that is fine. God accepts them where they are at. But usually Christians move from the rules based religion to a more Grace based faith. Again - according to Alden - they might not and they don't have to - but if they really learn of God - they WILL.

[Gail]

While this was not the intended direction of this thread - it is a good discussion.

Alden Thompsen discusses at great length the stages of Christianity. One of the first baby steps is conservativism. Babies in the faith need lots of rules. They relate to God bases on rules and obedience. And as Alden says - that is fine. God accepts them where they are at. But usually Christians move from the rules based religion to a more Grace based faith. Again - according to Alden - they might not and they don't have to - but if they really learn of God - they WILL.

Amen!! :)

[ClubV12]

I've mentioned this before, but it bears repeating...

Early on in my Adventist experience I suffered such a severe setback that I was wrestling for my very soul in a profound way. I had nobody, nothing, nada, zilch to fall back on, utterly alone. I could care less about the things of this world, my concern was of the heavenly world. Thats when I discovered righteousness by faith, it was all I had left, His grace, or I was surely doomed.

I talked about it so much more than one person said I was making to much of it and needed to consider at least some aspects of the law. That grace alone doesn't work. In my heart there was never any question about the "law", of course it's relevant, it's a BLESSING not some "works program". The two concepts go hand in hand, faith and works.

Now I find folks talking more about grace and putting less emphasis on the law!!! It's like you can't win. One side of the road to the other, veering wildly out of control at any given moment!

The key for me is to find that balance, which is a constantly moving target. Some folks need the straight testimony, sometimes I DO! The law IS important! False sympathy is literally a killer. Sometimes you need to speak of grace, as it is the only hope for those who have been brought so low in their walk.

Sister White had it right,,, "let the law take care of itself" she said. We have preached the law until we are as dry as the hills of Gilboa. Righteousness by faith, properly understood and applied provides a love for the law. And without that love, keeping the law becomes a meaningless sacrifice, a mere tradition.

[Gail]

ClubV12, I was also converted from a "good and lost" state. I so needed guidance and was fascinated by the ones found in the Bible.

There is a place and time for each part. I have found that my faith has evolved and it just keeps getting better- more exciting!

[Woody]

Not so fast....

(digs through the tool box to find a monkey wrench to throw in the works).

During the Saints resurrection we are told the "little ones" wing their way to their parents. Of course those without parents will fly to an angel (a specific angel appointed for that child I would think).

That brings up a couple of thoughts. WHO are these "little ones"? And by what merits are they justified for eternal life? I suspect it will be related to our parentage in some way. Will ALL the "little ones" be raised, regardless of their parentage? At what age do we pass from the mystery of merits based on some external environment to the "choice" of choosing to love God? Accountability in other words. Sister White does say even very young children can grasp the prinicples of salvation and recognize the Saviour and accept Him. How young is "very young"?

Sister White also spoke of some persons who will NEVER be resurrected, not Saint, not sinner, not in the first or the second resurrection! They lived, they died, thats it, no judgment of any kind. She is referring primarily to slaves who were so badly treated and under such subjection to their masters that they were little more than "beasts of the field" with no free will, no choice in their life. She says it would not be safe to bring them into the heavenly city because they have never been exposed to the possibility of choice, of sin. Even the created beings on other planets have been given a choice, they to have a tree of knowledge of good and evil, but have never eaten from it. Only THIS planet has fallen.

Back to the "little ones". I suspect those that are not sufficiently mentally developed to have made ANY choice at all would be much like the slaves. Those who are "very young" but have spiritual parents have at least been presented the concept of right vs wrong, the fundamentals of the plan of salvation, a knowledge of Jesus and a childs faith. Even at "two years old".

As I recall, Sister White made some comment about the "character being set" by age two.

....picks up the monkey wrench and wanders off...

No monkey wrench at all. They may be Christians - but I doubt they have the mental capacity to be Adventists. Being a Christian is a simple thing. Love come in to play. Character comes into play. But being an Adventist is an intellectual pursuit that I don't think a two year old could accomplish.

[abelisle]

"But being an Adventist is an intellectual pursuit that I don't think a two year old could accomplish."

So, why do we insist on baptizing young children who clearly don't understand our unique prophetic understandings and eschatological vision? Just an emotional thing to appease peers and parents? Or the argument that if we don't baptize them at these young ages ( 8, 9 10 etc.) that they will never be baptized. Is this practice on its face disingenuous?

[Tom Wetmore]

All my life and then some... I sometimes say I am genetically Adventist as a 4th or 5th generation Adventist.

But I agree, it is an annoying question, since it shouldn't matter. And to those for whom it does somehow matter, it is usually not for a good reason.

[Woody]

Quote:

So, why do we insist on baptizing young children who clearly don't understand our unique prophetic understandings and eschatological vision? Just an emotional thing to appease peers and parents? Or the argument that if we don't baptize them at these young ages ( 8, 9 10 etc.) that they will never be baptized. Is this practice on its face disingenuous?

Good Question. From my perspective it is because we have the whole concept of baptism and "membership" all confused. Jesus said for the little ones to come to Him. As I mentioned above - Christianity is a simple thing. It does not require an intellectual pusuit. And baptism is into the body of Christ. It states that you are a Christian and that you DESIRE to follow Him. It does not state that you are an Adventist. Adventism comes after the intellectual pursuit we talked about. Adventism comes AFTER baptism by a popular vote of those members who might happen to be at attendence that particular Sabbath. If you get 51% of the vote - you are in.

[ClubV12]

"Adventism comes AFTER baptism by a popular vote..."

Actually, that is very accurate, before that vote you could be a professed Adventist. But, lots of people "profess" that and many more things. But being a member clears up the issue altogether, at that point, you really are a genuine, a real, "Adventist".

Now being a very real Adventist is no gaurentee of salvation of course, nor is being a Christian. It takes more than a label.

[LynnDel]

Having also been asked that question frequently, once I asked why that particular person wanted to know. She, a relatively recent convert, said, "Oh, I envy you so much. You grew up knowing the truth, you know so much about the Bible, it's just like you are holier than I am, and I want to be where you are!"

I was amazed! I told her how much I envied her, for having that First Love that comes with understanding our Savior in a new light, for knowing how much He loves us and cares for us -- things we old-SDAs sometimes forget in the ho-humness that comes with familiarity. We both then recognized the pros and cons of where we were and understood God has a place for new converts and 5th-generation SDA genetics -- and that we both can learn a lot from each other.

LD

[phkrause]

Having also been asked that question frequently, once I asked why that particular person wanted to know. She, a relatively recent convert, said, "Oh, I envy you so much. You grew up knowing the truth, you know so much about the Bible, it's just like you are holier than I am, and I want to be where you are!"

I was amazed! I told her how much I envied her, for having that First Love that comes with understanding our Savior in a new light, for knowing how much He loves us and cares for us -- things we old-SDAs sometimes forget in the ho-humness that comes with familiarity. We both then recognized the pros and cons of where we were and understood God has a place for new converts and 5th-generation SDA genetics -- and that we both can learn a lot from each other.

LD

[Dr. Shane]

I was raised in a back-slidden, alcoholic, sexually and physically abusive home. No surprise I left the Adventist church. When I was 21 and decided I needed God I figured I would find Him in some other church. Swearing to be honest to myself, it took me a while to even decide that Christianity was the right religion. Then, it took a while before I was able to admit that the Adventist movement most closely followed the Bible.

My son told me he wanted to get baptized two years ago. He was 8. I asked him why. He said he wanted to be a member of the church. One of his friends had just got baptized at camp. I told him baptism isn't about becoming a church member. It is about agreeing with God that we are sinners, that our way is wrong and His way is right. It is about deciding to abandon ourselves to God and trust in His Word instead of our own thinking. I told him when he thinks he is at that point, we will talk to the pastor about baptismal lessons. He brought it up again to me this year but says he doesn't think he is quite ready yet. I am a 4th generation so that makes him a 5th if he decides to join and remain in the church.

[olger]

Thanks for the story of God's grace.

Abe, your question is a good one. We have wandered a bit from the awesome truth of Believer's baptism" bequeathed to us by Anabaptists who purchased this doctrine with their own blood. Could it be that we rely too much on "re-baptism" and in the process devalue our first baptism?

[ClubV12]

Speaking of "re-baptism" that too is over used and should be considered very sparingly. Paricipation in the ordinance of humility is often all that is required to renew and make public, again, your comittement to Christ.

[Kountzer]

I've posted this several times, here, and in other places, other forums.

I wasn't born adventist. I didn't get baptized until I was in my late twenties.

I was exposed to this church and it's unique teachings at a young age. I was maybe five or six when I first heard adventist teaching, and doctrine. I knew from the beginning that it was the truth. The Holy Spirit guided me I guess. I just knew.

In the area I grew up in there were not a lot of adventists. Perhaps there were more than I knew about, but they didn't reveal themselves to me. There still aren't a lot of adventists there.

Where I live now there aren't that many adventists that I talk to on a daily basis. I share certain things with people about prophecy, America in prophecy, if the conversation gets that far. There has to be something more relevant to discuss besides sports. This is it. The problem lies with me I guess.