TED on Women in Leadership

[Stan]

Women in Leadership

Preamble to the Motion on Women in Leadership

In November 2010, the Trans-European Division Executive Committee made four requests to the General Conference regarding Women in Leadership within the TED

(a) that the study of the theology of ordination is prioritised;

( that the General Conference would review and amend its policies so that the wording is gender neutral and all leadership pathways are open to male and female;

© that a variance to the model constitutions and bylaws be granted with the insertion of “conference and union presidents should be ordained/commissioned ministers” in its policy language;

(d) that the General Conference grants permission to ordain women to the gospel ministry within the TED.

We recognise that meeting these requests may take some time. Therefore we see each of them as standing requests from the TED while we wait for their implementation.

Concerning our request for a variance in the model constitutions and bylaws by inserting the addition that commissioned ministers may also be elected as conference and union presidents, the General Conference Annual Council voted in October this year to decline a similar request from the North American Division, and by common consent this was taken as a negative answer to our request.

Motion on Women in Leadership

• We maintain our Bible-based conviction that the Seventh-day Adventist Church is a fellowship of the “priesthood of all believers” and that the Holy Spirit calls and equips men and women with various gifts, including that of leadership. Ministry in the New Testament is based on spiritual gifts. It is the fellowship of believers that recognises and endorses these gifts and sends out women and men for service.

• We express our sadness and disappointment at the decision of the Annual Council. We prayerfully and sincerely believe it will damage the work of God’s people in many parts of the TED.

• We find it difficult to understand why the election of a commissioned minister by a local constituency could harm other world divisions, since a commissioned minister serving as president only impacts the local organisation.

• We believe that ordination or the “setting aside” of members, regardless of gender, for leadership in the church is made by prayer and the laying on of hands in order to confirm the presence of the spiritual gift of leadership, as the Bible teaches, and not to convey a particular quality of “priestly holiness” or spiritual status.

• We recognise that changes to the bold print in the model constitutions in the TED Working Policy must be approved by the General Conference. We have maintained this position within the TED when unions or conferences have been tempted to walk an independent path. However we request the General Conference to understand that for many this is an ethical and legal matter that strongly affects their consciences.

• We recognise that the World Church has approved a timetable for studying the theology of ordination with a view to bring a proposal to the General Conference Annual Council in 2014. We regret the extended timeline as it places some unions/conferences/missions/fields in an ethical and legal dilemma.

• We recognise that while waiting for the World Church to establish the Biblical theology of ordination, there are unions/conferences/missions/fields within the TED where the issues of women’s ordination and their election to leadership positions are matters of ethical integrity and individual conscience which may challenge the church and undermine our sharing of the Adventist message with the vast majority of the population. After consultation with the TED administration and approval by the appropriate church governance body, such unions/conferences/missions/fields may apply parity between male and female pastors on the grounds of the TED’s existing policies and guidelines for ordained/commissioned minister credentials. [tedNEWS]

[ClubV12]

Before it's asked:

"TED", Trans European Division

....your welcome. :)

[olger]

Thanks CV

[miz3]

Will this move the process along?

The TED did a good job in my opinion.

[John317]

.... We recognise that while waiting for the World Church to establish the Biblical theology of ordination, there are unions/conferences/missions/fields within the TED where the issues of women's ordination and their election to leadership positions are matters of ethical integrity and individual conscience which may challenge the church and undermine our sharing of the Adventist message with the vast majority of the population.

Is not the vast majority of the population often wrong?

Should the church, then, change its doctrines and practices in order to agree with the vast majority of the population in Europe or North America if that majority disagrees with the Bible's teachings?

So, it seems to me that the change should only be made if the World Church finds that such a change is clearly supported by the Bible.

The Bible-- and not the vast majority of the population-- is the sole rule for judging ethical integrity and the conscience.

Anyone disagree with this?

[lazarus]

The TED is NOT arguing that we should change becasue the majority of the population want the change. As was indicated, the current situation undermines our witness in their view.

A similar argument could be made that white/black conferences undermine our witness as a church. That is not to say we disband them simply becasue the community around us finds the division wrong.

In some areas the majority population is ahead of the church!

The leaders of the TED believe that the change is supported by the Bible.

[ClubV12]

I understand the concern with undermining our witness. I also understand where John317 is coming from, whatever cannot be supported biblically cannot be allowed, no matter what the consequences may appear to be.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

The leaders of the TED believe that the change is supported by the Bible.

So.....it is going to be studied and reported on. Makes sense!!! In light of the above statement of reason, why do so many keep saying 'it, decision, must follow the Bible'? That is the reason for the study!! Makes me wonder if persons are presupposing that the Bible will not be followed because of that persons own opinion. Patience, everyone!!!

[Woody]

Yes CoA - some are afraid of a truthful study of scripture. They want to get their own biases in before the study.

Ellen White states that there will be continued study and learning of God throughout eternity. We will continue to improve our knowledge of Him. The Bible and our understanding of it are just the tip of the iceberg. We will NEED all of eternity to learn about God.

[ClubV12]

CoApsen asks,

"...why do so many keep saying 'it, decision, must follow the Bible'?"

Because it was suggested that if the decision does not allow for ordination of leadership it will have a negative impact on the witness of the church.

Regardless of the impact, or whatever people think, or the need for "unity" and "brotherly" love, even if it splits the church, even if it causes some to get angry and remove their membership, the decision MUST follow the bible.

Woody says,

"Yes CoA - some are afraid of a truthful study of scripture. They want to get there own biases in before the study."

This is not an issue of leadership (TED or the General Conference) being afraid to study the truth or the allegation they have a bias on either side. Unless that snide remark was just aimed at Christians in general or Adventist in particular, instead of TED or the GC. It's hard to keep up with the anti-Adventist crowd around here to know who their talking too on any given post....

Who among the church has been given the authority to make this decision? To decide what biblical standards apply to women's ordination? It isn't TED. It isn't the membership of the church. It isn't anti-Adventist, former Adventist or the Baptist church. WHO is it? It is a group of Seventh-day Adventists, when assembled with members representing the various interests of the world church, that are empowered with what the Lord call's the "highest authority on earth". The General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists.

[ClubV12]

It is impossible to advance in spiritual knowledge if you have rejected that which has already been revealed. In this life, let alone the next.

[John317]

In some areas the majority population is ahead of the church!

I doubt that the majority of the population in Europe is being led by the Holy Spirit more than the World Church is.

Does the church believe that if we have women pastors, there will be a greater response to the Three Angels Messages in Europe and North America?

I believe the position of the church on this issue must be decided not by what the world wants but by a studying and praying World Church.

We can be certain that in the not-too-distant future the vast majority of the population in Europe and North America will say that the churches should accept practicing homosexuals as members.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: Stan Jensen

.... We recognise that while waiting for the World Church to establish the Biblical theology of ordination, there are unions/conferences/missions/fields within the TED where the issues of women's ordination and their election to leadership positions are matters of ethical integrity and individual conscience which may challenge the church and undermine our sharing of the Adventist message with the vast majority of the population.

Is not the vast majority of the population often wrong?

Should the church, then, change its doctrines and practices in order to agree with the vast majority of the population in Europe or North America if that majority disagrees with the Bible's teachings?

So, it seems to me that the change should only be made if the World Church finds that such a change is clearly supported by the Bible.

The Bible-- and not the vast majority of the population-- is the sole rule for judging ethical integrity and the conscience.

Anyone disagree with this?

The Bible does not prohibit the ordination and/or the leadership of woman within the Church.

There is no need to "study" this issue of whether it is Biblical or not. SDA being such "good" Bible students already should have the answer right ready in their hands.

The only reason for delay is to give the GC and TED/NAD to find a "face-saving" way out of this awkward situation.

This is not a "spiritual" struggle within the SDA Church at all. There is phony spiritual posturing to be sure, but this is not a "spiritual question".

My, my, the naivete of some people. This is nothing more than who will have the right to hold such power. Very, RCC like.

The anti-woman's-ordination group tries to foist upon the rest that such a thing is not Biblical when in fact the Bible does not prohibit such ordination/leadership for women.

If you disagree show me the Scripture.

[John317]

The Bible does not prohibit the ordination and/or the leadership of woman within the Church.

....The anti-woman's-ordination group tries to foist upon the rest that such a thing is not Biblical when in fact the Bible does not prohibit such ordination/leadership for women.

If you disagree show me the Scripture.

1 Cor. 14:33b-38

As in all the churches of the saints, [34] the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. [35] If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.

[36] Or was it from you that the word of God came? Or are you the only ones it has reached? [37] If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord. [38] If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.

1 Tim. 2:8-15

I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling; [9] likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, [10] but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works. [11] Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. [12] I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. [13] For Adam was formed first, then Eve; [14] and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. [15] Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.

1 Cor. 11:3-16

But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. [4] Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, [5] but every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is the same as if her head were shaven. [6] For if a woman will not cover her head, then she should cut her hair short. But since it is disgraceful for a woman to cut off her hair or shave her head, let her cover her head. [7] For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man. [8] For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. [9] Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. [10] That is why the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. [11] Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man nor man of woman; [12] for as woman was made from man, so man is now born of woman. And all things are from God. [13] Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a wife to pray to God with her head uncovered? [14] Does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears long hair it is a disgrace for him, [15] but if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For her hair is given to her for a covering. [16] If anyone is inclined to be contentious, we have no such practice, nor do the churches of God.

[Bravus]

I took the title of the thread to be a reference to the TED talks, which are highly recommended.

That is all. ;-)

[LynnDel]

I had the same take, Bravus, and now I realize there are several ways TED could be read.

LD

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

The Bible does not prohibit the ordination and/or the leadership of woman within the Church.

....The anti-woman's-ordination group tries to foist upon the rest that such a thing is not Biblical when in fact the Bible does not prohibit such ordination/leadership for women.

If you disagree show me the Scripture.

1 Cor. 14:33b-38

As in all the churches of the saints, [34] the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. [35] If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.

[36] Or was it from you that the word of God came? Or are you the only ones it has reached? [37] If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord. [38] If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.

1 Tim. 2:8-15

I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling; [9] likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, [10] but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works. [11] Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. [12] I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. [13] For Adam was formed first, then Eve; [14] and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. [15] Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.

1 Cor. 11:3-16

But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. [4] Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, [5] but every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is the same as if her head were shaven. [6] For if a woman will not cover her head, then she should cut her hair short. But since it is disgraceful for a woman to cut off her hair or shave her head, let her cover her head. [7] For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man. [8] For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. [9] Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. [10] That is why the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. [11] Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man nor man of woman; [12] for as woman was made from man, so man is now born of woman. And all things are from God. [13] Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a wife to pray to God with her head uncovered? [14] Does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears long hair it is a disgrace for him, [15] but if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For her hair is given to her for a covering. [16] If anyone is inclined to be contentious, we have no such practice, nor do the churches of God.

Apparently you disagree and these are the Scriptures that show your position to be correct.

1. 1Corinthians 14:33-38 is indeed an extremely strong statement. If we are to follow this text to the letter as you are suggesting in regard to Ordination/Leadership then we need to go the whole nine yards as to what the text clearly states.

Women should not ever speak while in the SDA Church. This command has already been broken in numerous ways today. If such were to also be true in our beginnings then Ellen White is not a true prophet because she broke this command by speaking innumerable times in the Church.

Is this your position John317? Either we go the whole nine yards or there is some context/cultural thing going on that you are not stating.

If you go the whole nine yards you then are consistent. The SDA Church is not consistent in regard to this text as the Church exists today because each Sabbath literally thousands of women speak in Church and lead out in its activities.

Please explain why the SDA Church and Ellen White does not abide this clear command from God which Paul states "does not recognize those that do not agree with it nor recognizes those that practice against this command".

2. 1Timothy 2:8-15 is an equally strong statement. Again the SDA Church is in violation of this command and has always been in violation of this command.

a. Woman indeed teach which is a prohibition in the text. Ellen White apparently is a false prophet because she also taught in the church and was not submissive as the text cites.

b. Women indeed exercise authority in the SDA Church today. The exercise authority as Church Officers and as Teachers of both children and adults. Ellen White exercised huge authority over men in the Church in her life time. Either the SDA Church and Ellen White are not God's chosen because they violate this clear prohibition or there is something going on that you aren't stating. Which is it John317?

c. Each Sabbath thousands of women do not "remain quiet" in SDA Churches. Ellen White did not remain quiet in the SDA Church. Violations abound John317 can you explain such violations coming the True Remnant Church and from its "prophet" Ellen White.

3. 1Corinthians 11:3-16 this text does not say that women should not be ordained/leaders. It says that a woman should have her head covered when participating in Church as a leader. The cover as the text states is the woman's symbol of her authority and that men don't need such coverings to have authority. The text clearly states that both men and women have authority in the Church.

This text is about head covering and nothing else. Obviously if woman "pray and/or prophesy" that is ordination/leadership the only proviso here is that the woman must have her head covered.

Again, the SDA Church and Ellen White have violated this "head covering thing" innumerable times over. Can you explain this John317? Is Ellen White a false prophet because she did not cover her head as the text commands?

Isn't it silly to cite these texts as being against women's ordination/leadership?

Or, should the SDA Church tighten up its rules of conduct for both men and woman including disavowing Ellen White as a true prophet because she was in gross violation of all these texts you cited?

[Tom Wetmore]

Does the church believe that if we have women pastors, there will be a greater response to the Three Angels Messages in Europe and North America?

Apparently Ellen White thought so.

Quote:

It was Mary who first preached a risen Jesus; and the refining, softening influence of Christian women is needed in the great work of preaching the truth now. If there were twenty women where now there is one who would make the saving of souls their cherished work, we should see many more converted to the truth. Zealous and continued diligence in the cause of God would be wholly successful, and would astonish them with its results. - Signs of the Times, September 16, 1886.

[ClubV12]

I missed the part in that Signs of the Times quote where she said women should be ordained Pastors.

It's a given women have a lot of rolls to play within the church and carry great responsibility. But the issue is "ordination".

[Tom Wetmore]

Maybe this collection of EGW quotes may be enlightening to you.

Quote:

“The refining, softening influence of Christian women is needed in the great work of preaching the truth…” -- RH, Jan 2, 1879.

"she has a ministerial license and bears many burdens of their church at Napier. She speaks to the people, is intelligent and every way capable." -- Mss 22, 1893.

"It is not always men who are best adapted to the successful management of a church. If faithful women have more deep piety and true devotion than men, they could indeed by their prayers and their labors do more than men who are unconsecrated in heart and in life." Letter 33, 1879, p. 2.

“…introducing our publications into families,

conversing, and praying with and for them is a good work, AND ONE WHICH WILL EDUCATE MEN AND WOMEN TO DO PASTORAL LABOR." -- RH, April 4, 1882.

"The Lord has given Christ to the world for ministry. Merely to preach the Word is not ministry. The Lord desires His ministering servants to occupy a place worthy of the highest consideration. In the mind of God, the ministry of men and women existed before the world was created. He determined that His ministers should have a perfect exemplification of Himself and His purposes.” -- Diary entry March 12, 1891, Ms 23-1891.

"to create a fund from my tithe money, to pay these women who are accomplishing just as essential work as the ministers are doing, and this tithe I will reserve for work in the same line as that of the ministers, hunting for souls, fishing for souls." -- to Brethren Irwin, Evans, Smith and Jones, April 21, 1898, I191a-1898.

"Injustice has been done to women who labor just as devotedly as their husbands, and who are recognized by God as being as necessary to the work of ministry as their husbands. The method of paying men-laborers and not their wives, is a plan not after the Lord's order....This arrangement...is liable to discourage our sisters from qualifying themselves for the work they should engage in [i.e., ministry]....This question is not for men to settle. The Lord has settled it. You are to do your duty to the women who labor in the gospel.” -- Mss 43a-1898.

"God wants workers who can carry the truth to all classes, high and low, rich and poor. In this work women may act an important part. God grant that those who read these words may put forth earnest efforts to present an open door for consecrated women to enter the field." -- Mss 43a, 1897.

"You are to do your duty to the WOMEN WHO LABOR IN THE GOSPEL, WHOSE WORK TESTIFIES THAT THEY ARE ESSENTIAL TO CARRY THE TRUTH INTO FAMILIES. THEIR WORK IS JUST THE WORK THAT MUST BE DONE. In many respects a woman can impart knowledge to her sisters that a man cannot. The cause would suffer great loss without this kind of labor. AGAIN AND AGAIN THE LORD HAS SHOWN ME THAT WOMEN TEACHERS ARE JUST AS GREATLY NEEDED TO DO THE WORK TO WHICH HE HAS APPOINTED THEM AS ARE MEN." -- Mss 43a-1898.

"There are women who should labor in the gospel ministry. In many respects they would do more good than the ministers who neglect to visit the flock of God. Husband and wife may unite in this work, and when it is possible, they should. THE WAY IS OPEN FOR CONSECRATED WOMEN." -- Mss. 43a, 1898, Evangelism 472.

"All who wish an opportunity for true ministry, and who will give themselves unreservedly to God, will find in the canvassing work opportunities to speak upon many things pertaining to the future immortal life. The experience thus gained will be of the greatest value to THOSE WHO ARE FITTING THEMSELVES FOR THE WORK OF THE MINISTRY. It is the accompaniment of the Holy Spirit of God that prepares workers, BOTH MEN AND WOMEN, TO BECOME PASTORS TO THE FLOCK OF GOD." -- RH, January 15, 1901.

"If men and women would act as the Lord's helping hand, doing deeds of love and kindness, uplifting the oppressed, rescuing those ready to perish, the glory of the Lord would be their rearguard....Of those who act as his helping hand the Lord says, 'Ye shall be named priests of the Lord; men shall call you the ministers of our God.'" -- Jan 17, 1901, B7-1901.

"Young men and young women who should be engaged in the ministry, in Bible work, and in the canvassing work, should not be bound down to mechanical employment." -- RH, October 15, 1903.

[miz3]

Maybe this collection of EGW quotes may be enlightening to you.

Quote:

“The refining, softening influence of Christian women is needed in the great work of preaching the truth…” -- RH, Jan 2, 1879.

"she has a ministerial license and bears many burdens of their church at Napier. She speaks to the people, is intelligent and every way capable." -- Mss 22, 1893.

"It is not always men who are best adapted to the successful management of a church. If faithful women have more deep piety and true devotion than men, they could indeed by their prayers and their labors do more than men who are unconsecrated in heart and in life." Letter 33, 1879, p. 2.

“…introducing our publications into families,

conversing, and praying with and for them is a good work, AND ONE WHICH WILL EDUCATE MEN AND WOMEN TO DO PASTORAL LABOR." -- RH, April 4, 1882.

"The Lord has given Christ to the world for ministry. Merely to preach the Word is not ministry. The Lord desires His ministering servants to occupy a place worthy of the highest consideration. In the mind of God, the ministry of men and women existed before the world was created. He determined that His ministers should have a perfect exemplification of Himself and His purposes.” -- Diary entry March 12, 1891, Ms 23-1891.

"to create a fund from my tithe money, to pay these women who are accomplishing just as essential work as the ministers are doing, and this tithe I will reserve for work in the same line as that of the ministers, hunting for souls, fishing for souls." -- to Brethren Irwin, Evans, Smith and Jones, April 21, 1898, I191a-1898.

"Injustice has been done to women who labor just as devotedly as their husbands, and who are recognized by God as being as necessary to the work of ministry as their husbands. The method of paying men-laborers and not their wives, is a plan not after the Lord's order....This arrangement...is liable to discourage our sisters from qualifying themselves for the work they should engage in [i.e., ministry]....This question is not for men to settle. The Lord has settled it. You are to do your duty to the women who labor in the gospel.” -- Mss 43a-1898.

"God wants workers who can carry the truth to all classes, high and low, rich and poor. In this work women may act an important part. God grant that those who read these words may put forth earnest efforts to present an open door for consecrated women to enter the field." -- Mss 43a, 1897.

"You are to do your duty to the WOMEN WHO LABOR IN THE GOSPEL, WHOSE WORK TESTIFIES THAT THEY ARE ESSENTIAL TO CARRY THE TRUTH INTO FAMILIES. THEIR WORK IS JUST THE WORK THAT MUST BE DONE. In many respects a woman can impart knowledge to her sisters that a man cannot. The cause would suffer great loss without this kind of labor. AGAIN AND AGAIN THE LORD HAS SHOWN ME THAT WOMEN TEACHERS ARE JUST AS GREATLY NEEDED TO DO THE WORK TO WHICH HE HAS APPOINTED THEM AS ARE MEN." -- Mss 43a-1898.

"There are women who should labor in the gospel ministry. In many respects they would do more good than the ministers who neglect to visit the flock of God. Husband and wife may unite in this work, and when it is possible, they should. THE WAY IS OPEN FOR CONSECRATED WOMEN." -- Mss. 43a, 1898, Evangelism 472.

"All who wish an opportunity for true ministry, and who will give themselves unreservedly to God, will find in the canvassing work opportunities to speak upon many things pertaining to the future immortal life. The experience thus gained will be of the greatest value to THOSE WHO ARE FITTING THEMSELVES FOR THE WORK OF THE MINISTRY. It is the accompaniment of the Holy Spirit of God that prepares workers, BOTH MEN AND WOMEN, TO BECOME PASTORS TO THE FLOCK OF GOD." -- RH, January 15, 1901.

"If men and women would act as the Lord's helping hand, doing deeds of love and kindness, uplifting the oppressed, rescuing those ready to perish, the glory of the Lord would be their rearguard....Of those who act as his helping hand the Lord says, 'Ye shall be named priests of the Lord; men shall call you the ministers of our God.'" -- Jan 17, 1901, B7-1901.

"Young men and young women who should be engaged in the ministry, in Bible work, and in the canvassing work, should not be bound down to mechanical employment." -- RH, October 15, 1903.

Well done Tom.

[lazarus]

I doubt that the majority of the population in Europe is being led by the Holy Spirit more than the World Church is.

The majority population has often been ahead of churches as regards to prevention and response to child abuse, race and fair treatment in the workplace. The Holy Spirit has had to teach the church through the world.

Quote:

I believe the position of the church on this issue must be decided not by what the world wants but by a studying and praying World Church.

To suggest that anyone is suggesting that the majority population decide our doctrines is false.

Quote:

We can be certain that in the not-too-distant future the vast majority of the population in Europe and North America will say that the churches should accept practicing homosexuals as members.

The majority population has decided that the consumption of alcohol is acceptable. We reject that.

The majority Christian population holds Sunday as their day of worship. We reject that.

We are good a rejecting what the majority population says on a whole bunch of issues.

[ClubV12]

I wonder if the GC is aware of these quotes?

If the ordination issue was SO clear, this issue would have been resolved in the 1800's!

My local church has a women assistant Pastor, I think the world of her, she is doing a great job. Should she be ordained instead of commissioned? Not my call, I'll wait for the GC to decide that.

[lazarus]

What do slavery, circumcision, and the subordinate role of women have in common? All three of these seem to be supported by Scripture. However, slavery is no longer valid and the necessity of circumcision as a requirement for membership into the Christian church has been abandoned. I will argue that the subordinate role of women also should be abandoned on the same grounds as the previous two, especially in regard to the ordination of women as ministers in the Church.

http://spectrummagazine.org/blog/2011/11/21/slavery-circumcision-and-ordination-women

[ClubV12]

Read the article, thanks for the link Lazarus. Mostly it reconfirmed why I rarely visit Spectrum.

The author fails to make a strong case for ordination in my opinion, he throws out some ideas, offers his take on what they mean and then ends with this:

If you don't see it HIS way your among that group that thinks the world is flat. Wait,,, did he just call me an idiot? I think he would feel right at home of this forum with concluding remarks such as that!