Being told how to pray?

[M. T. Cross]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/28/nyregion/for-catholics-the-word-was-a-bit-different-amen.html?_r=1

Published: November 27, 2011

Catholics throughout the English-speaking world on Sunday left behind words they have prayed for nearly four decades, flipping through unfamiliar pew cards and pronouncing new phrases as the church launched a long-in-the-works effort to persuade tens of millions of people to embrace words of worship that more faithfully track centuries-old Latin phrasing.

In the cavernous nave of St. Patrick’s Cathedral, on Fifth Avenue in Manhattan, Msgr. Robert T. Ritchie told thousands of Thanksgiving weekend worshipers that “Today is a special day — Today is the start of a new translation of the Mass,” as he pointed them to the new text on pew cards.

But when Monsignor Ritchie said to the assembly, “The Lord be with you,” many responded by rote, declaring, “And also with you,” rather than the new words of prayer, “And with your spirit,” that they were supposed to say. And though he had carefully studied the new service, even Monsignor Ritchie lost his place at one point, raising his eyebrows as he flipped through the missal, looking for the right words before the start of Communion.

The new translation was introduced in every English-language Mass in the United States, Canada, the United Kingdom and India this weekend, and had been phased in elsewhere in the English-speaking world over the past year. The new translation, which alters some of the most familiar phrases of the Catholic liturgy, is praised by church officials as more authentic, more faithful, more accurate, and more reverential. And some worshipers agreed.

“If they bring back a little more of the traditional way of doing things, I think people will appreciate the Mass more,” Paul Tortora, who attended a morning Mass at St. Patrick’s on Sunday, said in an interview. Mr. Tortora said he had been an altar boy at the cathedral in the early 1960s, and declared himself thrilled with the change.

“But I’m old-school,” he said.

Not all Catholics interviewed were quite so sanguine.

“I am furious with the church,” said George Lind, 73, who at one point became so angered by the new language that he stopped responding. “I am so tired of being told exactly what I have to say, exactly what I have to pray. The changes are so meaningless.”

On Saturday evening, at Holy Cross Church in Times Square, the clergy tried to use a mixture of patience and humor to reassure parishioners.

“Be patient, we’ll get it,” the Rev. Peter Colapietro, the church’s pastor, said from the pulpit. “Please remember that we are going to be making mistakes, but first and foremost we are here to give praise and thanks to God.”

At Holy Cross, as at St. Patrick’s, most parishioners did their best to follow along, beginning their recitation of the Creed, the central profession of faith, with “I believe in one God” instead of “We believe in one God,” and declaring“Lord, I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof” instead of “Lord, I am not worthy to receive you.”

The mixed emotions in the pews broadly mirrored the reception that the new translation has gotten from clergy and liturgical scholars. The product of more than 30 years of power struggles, ideological disagreements and intrigue, the new translation is praised by supporters for bringing a stronger sense of majesty and reverence to the Mass, and bemoaned by critics as being too slavish to the Latin, and in the process abandoning some of the ecumenical goals that influenced the last translation, such as a move toward common prayers with Protestant faiths.

More than 22,000 people, including many priests, signed an online petition to postpone the introduction of the new Mass on a Web site called whatifwejustsaidwait.org. An association of hundreds of Irish priests called for the translation to be scrapped. And some leading liturgical scholars, called to assist with the preparation of this new text, objected to its alleged inelegance.

The Rev. Michael Ryan, pastor of St. James Cathedral in Seattle, who started the web petition to postpone the new text, said that most of its opponents are now resigned to using it. For his part, he plans to stick carefully to what he is given.

“I am not going to change a word, because the only way it will get evaluated is if people hear it as it is,” he said. “I trust the people will indeed speak up.”

Msgr. Christopher Maloney of St. John the Baptist Parish in Yonkers was also among a group of priests that had expressed concerns, but for the past months, he has put all that aside and focused on getting his congregation ready for the change.

“I have to prepare people to pray the way that the church wants us to pray, whatever my personal reservations, or hesitations about the particular form about which that prayer is being expressed,” he said. Besides, he said, it will take some time to see how the translation affects the people and their worship. “There will probably be some people who say, what was all the fuss about, and others who say, what the heck is going on. We will just have to wait and see.”

The Rev. Anthony Ruff, a scholar of Latin and Gregorian chant at St. John’s University and seminary in Collegeville, Minn., was the head of the committee in charge of writing the English chants for the priests, but was removed in November 2010, he said, after he became “increasingly critical of the clunky text and the top-down secretive process,” by which the new English translation was created and refused to promote it.

“The syntax is too Latinate, it’s not good English that will help people pray,” he said in an interview. “Rome got it’s way in forcing this on us, but it is a Pyrrhic victory because it is not bringing the whole church together around a high quality product.”

The last major change to the Mass had been in 1974, when American churches began to use a fully English language version of the Mass in the wake of Vatican’s decision to permit parishes around the world to worship in their own languages, rather than in Latin. But there has long been broad agreement among liturgical scholars that that translation of the Mass had some inaccuracies and infelicities, and work on new, more poetic translation began in the 1980s. By 1998, a full draft of the new missal was completed, approved by bishops’ conferences around the English-speaking world, and sent to Rome for the final approval. But that version was never approved, and in 2001, Rome issued new guidelines for translation, called Liturgiam Authenticam, requiring that Mass language follow every word in the Latin text, including the syntax, where possible, a dramatic philosophical shift from the more flexible principle of “dynamic equivalence” that had guided the 1974, and the 1998 translation. The translation effort started again.

The text that was ultimately approved, and put into effect Sunday, is more complicated and formal, using words like “consubstantial” and “oblation.” And the Vatican rejected efforts to make the text more gender-neutral in places, sticking with the male pronouns used in Latin.

The Rev. Daniel Merz, associate director of the secretariat of Divine Worship of United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, said the new translation had been widely discussed.

“I don’t think there’s ever been a document that’s been so consulted in the history of the world,” he said. He called the new text more poetic than the simple language used for the last 40 years.

“Over time, we have realized that there is a better way to pray,” he said. “Not that the old way was bad, but we hope and believe that this new way is better.”

[phkrause]

Interesting is all I can say.

[M. T. Cross]

I always wonder why they use scripted prayers. One from the heart would be so much more effective IMO.

[Overaged]

Jesus and the Bible would agree with you.

Believe me; the Roman Catholic leadership has their reasons for doing this.

[Gibs]

Watch for the one called "Lectio Divina" in prayers and more but no doubt a cover up of it so it is not recognized may be already in the church. I'm hearing of some things and trying to find out more.

May be with "spiritual formation" and "spiritual exercises".

Don't be bitten with the rattlesnake that gets them by surprise. he is a sneaky cuss.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gail]

Does anyone know why they chose Latin to begin with?

[Overaged]

Catholic leadership says that they chose Latin, to be closer to "original tradition;" but I guess thats why so many object to it - many do not understand the language.

It effectively, is one way, to withhold the Bible from church members

[phkrause]

Catholic leadership says that they chose Latin, to be closer to "original tradition;" but I guess thats why so many object to it - many do not understand the language.

It effectively, is one way, to withhold the Bible from church members

Interesting that's for sure.

[M. T. Cross]

I was thinking more about this.

Almost every religion/denomination has ritualistic things. That is not a bad thing, in fact its very good.

But the Catholic church so over does it. Every thing is ritualistic. When you do the same thing every week it loses its meaning. Ritual should be special, it should bring you closer to your God. Not just some way of talking to your God that loses all specialness because you have done it a million times.

[phkrause]

I do agree with a lot your saying. My SIL is Catholic and she is probably one of the finest Christians I know. I think it gets very hard to tell whose being legalistic or not, in any denomination.

[Amelia]

Quote:

Lectio Divina

That means divine reading. A psrt of the service where the daily scripture is read. Why is that sinister?

[Overaged]

Quote:

Lectio Divina

That means divine reading. A psrt of the service where the daily scripture is read. Why is that sinister?

I believe the word used in the post at question here was "ritualistic." Lets not put words in anyone's mouth.

[Overaged]

I was thinking more about this.

Almost every religion/denomination has ritualistic things. That is not a bad thing, in fact its very good.

But the Catholic church so over does it. Every thing is ritualistic. When you do the same thing every week it loses its meaning. Ritual should be special, it should bring you closer to your God. Not just some way of talking to your God that loses all specialness because you have done it a million times.

[Gibs]

Lectio Divina,

It is come in with the spiritual exercises of Ignatius Loyola and most of it reads just almost exactly as he penned it. It actually is part of the "emerging church" in that it is a going back into Rome and Babylon the Great.

The Hierarchy are bringing it in and Ted Wilson is on to it and what he can do is to be seen. It has gained a very strong foothold along with so many other problems that to get to a full reform back to true Adventism it would be a terrible upheaveal but needs to happen or she is fallen back to where she came out of is what I see.

I am saying, WAKE UP SDA's and get behind Ted and let him know, you want total reform back to the old waymarks of the faith.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

I was thinking more about this.

Almost every religion/denomination has ritualistic things. That is not a bad thing, in fact its very good.

But the Catholic church so over does it. Every thing is ritualistic. When you do the same thing every week it loses its meaning. Ritual should be special, it should bring you closer to your God. Not just some way of talking to your God that loses all specialness because you have done it a million times.

You are on the right track. It's not that one cannot be "christian" if they participate in Lectio Divina, but this is not quite like "reading the Bible." it is more akin to a visualization/devotion to the scriptures:

Quote:

Lectio Divina

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The four movements of Lectio divina: read, meditate, pray, contemplate.

In Christianity, Lectio Divina (Latin for divine reading) is a traditional Catholic practice of scriptural reading, meditation and prayer intended to promote communion with God and to increase the knowledge of God's Word. It does not treat Scripture as texts to be studied, but as the Living Word.[1]

Traditionally Lectio Divina has 4 separate steps: read, meditate, pray and contemplate. First a passage of Scripture is read, then its meaning is reflected upon. This is followed by prayer and contemplation on the Word of God.[2]

The focus of Lectio Divina is not a theological analysis of biblical passages but viewing them with Christ as the key to their meaning. For example, given Jesus' statement in John 14:27: "Peace I leave with you; my peace I give unto you" an analytical approach would focus on the reason for the statement during the Last Supper, the biblical context, etc. But in Lectio Divina rather than "dissecting peace", the practitioner "enters peace" and shares in the peace of Christ.[3] In Christian teachings, this form of meditative prayer leads to an increased knowledge of Christ.[4][5]

The roots of Scriptural reflection and interpretation go back to Origen in the 3rd century, after whom St. Ambrose taught them to St. Augustine. The monastic practice of Lectio Divina was first established in the 6th century by Saint Benedict. It was then formalized as a 4 step process by the Carthusian monk, Guigo II in the 12th century. In the 20th century, the constitution Dei Verbum of Pope Paul VI recommended Lectio Divina for the general public. Pope Benedict XVI emphasized the importance of Lectio Divina in the 21st century.

Full Article Here

"Ritualistic" was a very good choice of words here.

Reading, meditating, praying and contemplating are wonderful things. They allow one to fully experience spiritual teachings. I don't see that as a bad thing at all - but I think what the Catholics do is a very watered down version of that. They do the same call and response thing every week. Its not moving them forward in their relationship with Jesus.

[Gibs]

Lectio Divina is actually an occult spiritualistic ritual mixing into Christianity and it must be weeded out. There is no doubt there is no need of it and it is not of Christ. All need to look a little deeper as you have been warned, even the very elect will if possible be deceived and Bro. this is just one that has worked it's teaching in not just Adventism but into all the denominational churches.

This happening now very rapidly as so many now do not demand sound doctrine,

Mt 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

We are now here,

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[M. T. Cross]

Reading, meditating, praying and contemplating are occult practices? Well yes they use those practices as well, but they also eat, drink, work jobs etc.............

Please explain Gibs, how reading, meditating, praying and contemplating are bad things.

[Amelia]

GP

Hah, knew there was a sinister slant coming and there it is.

[Overaged]

Reading, meditating, praying and contemplating are occult practices? Well yes they use those practices as well, but they also eat, drink, work jobs etc.............

Please explain Gibs, how reading, meditating, praying and contemplating are bad things.

I agree with you EC These things can and should be a part of christian practice - or if one is not a christian; as you say there is still nothing wrong with reading, meditating, and contemplating scripture.

I think I know what Gibs is getting at. I think, in a very limited way he might have a point. There are some forms of "meditation" that were very good, but are being replaced by a type of visualization process that some feel may have harmful effects. Of course, Gibs will have to speak for himself, but this is the jist of this particular conspiracy theory which some Adventists adhere to; and it's what we are seeing in the revised Latin mass.

Typical Adventist Jesuit stuff.

[teresaq]

Reading, meditating, praying and contemplating are occult practices? Well yes they use those practices as well, but they also eat, drink, work jobs etc.............

Please explain Gibs, how reading, meditating, praying and contemplating are bad things.

I can't speak for Gibs, and on the surface these 4 ideas sound quite desirable. I believe, tho, that there is a mind-numbing version, not necessarily just in the Catholic church, and a mind-, or spiritually-invigorating version.

Like saying a hurried prayer with no intention of connecting to the Person we are praying at.