The Way to Heaven

[teresaq]

Actually Kevin, you didn't "kinda get it". You pretty much hit it dead on. It took me a while to realize that. :)

[phkrause]

Excellent post, I totally agree Gail. This is something that I've always wondered about. and one of the mysteries that if we don't really understand today, we will eventually. The mystery that I speak of is the mystery of a God the Son, coming to this earth to reconcile us to God the Father. As you say what about other religions? I'm not that fimiliar with all other religions but the ones I am, have nothing to offer anyone, like Jesus does for all. Eternal life.

[teresaq]

Based on the "this week at clubadventist" I am wondering if there is some confusion as to my intent for this thread...

The question is NOT is Jesus the "only" way.

The question is, is Jesus or His character the only way.

Which one,

Jesus?

Or the character of Jesus?

[Gail]

I wouldn't think too much of the This Week. It's only meant to rouse interest.

[Bravus]

That does do a lot to clarify the question: I guess I, like many people, probably responded to the thread title more than to the specific question being asked.

Focusing on that question, I still think you have problems with the most literal readings of Scripture, even if your approach seems sensible and humane.

What do you do with a text like:

Romans 10:9

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

It certainly seems as though some kind of verbal assent, rather than just the good (Christ-like) life and character is required for salvation.

[Gibs]

But I must stick to what Jesus Himself stateed, John 14:6, and He states that He is the WAY and the TRUTH and the LIFE! I gotta believe Him and when I go to Him, Repent, die and become a New Man in Him His Character is my character. I think we have our own character until the full conversion is made.

1 John 4:4

[Woody]

And Gibs I don't think we have the slightest clue who HE is.

He is far more than we even dare to think.

[Woody]

Praise God. It certainly IS Bravus. Amen to that. It IS a verbal ascent of what is in the heart.

[Gibs]

Woody, I choose to believe Him, I can do nothing else!

1 John 4:4

[Woody]

Amen. I'm with you on that brother.

Same here.

Praise God there is more than one way though - or one of us would be lost and I don't believe that for one second.

[Kevin H]

Teresaq: do you mean the question is it Jesus and his character, or Christianity the only way?

Everything is Jesus and made possible by his death on the cross for us. But it is his death, not us necessarly having to do the WORK if being able to give a history lesson about that the cross event took place and who was on it and all the details. We will learn more and more about this science through out eternity. In the Bible Jesus always demanded faith. The man at the pool for 38 years did not know about Jesus, did not know about the cross, he just saw someone who he began telling his ills to, and Jesus asked if he wanted to be healed. Being healed meant that he could no longer focus on his ills. He would have to go out and get a job like everyone else and deal with a whole new batch of stress that he could be excused from by being crippled begging at the pool. The man had to reach out in faith to Jesus and what Jesus was going to soon do on the cross. His healing was fully dependent on that, but all the man saw was a stranger and the cross event did not yet happen, yet this man had to reach out to that. He did not know he was reaching out but he did.

The issue comes with how we work with people. According to Dr. Jim Ayers (he use to sing with the Kings' Herold, and he continued Dr. Harding's taped Sabbath school Lessons for a few years until they stopped doing it) on one of the tapes said that until St. Augustine the church felt that the death of Jesus was so powerful that it saved everyone except those who actively refused it. Starting with St. Augustine the church started to believe that everyone was lost unless they actively accept it. And as missionaries we have the feeling that we need to get them saved and fear that we may fail.

I personally understand it by people being in 4 groups on a bell curve. The few who have become so settled in the faith that nothing will shake them. Those who have in somehow responded to the Holy Spirit's call on their life to have acceptd to the best of their understanding (whether it is actively being a member of a Christian denomination or while dieing on the streets of Indian responding to the love that they saw in Mother Tresia's eyes as she tried to comfort them as they died, to any other reaching out and becoming kinder because of that reaching out. but there is always the elements of reaching up and out to something outside of us, again, Jesus always demanded faith). Then there are those who have not done any sort of reaching out, mostly focusing on them selves, the general trend of their life is being a victim of cercumstance and superstition, having friends but using their friends for their own advangage every chance they get. Living the lifes described in "The Great Divorce" They are lost but searching and have open hearts who can be free as they learn more about Jesus. Then the few who have totally rejected Christ and just live for selfish reasons.

So with witnessing, instead of having the awesome responsibility that we are either trying to get them saved or else they will be burning in hell forever. We simply share with them. If they have already reached out, then it is information that may deepen their relationship. If they are in the 3rd group they may learn some things that can free them from superstition, cercumstances and self. For example Glasser's 7 habits of miserable people make sense if you think about it: Complaining, Criticizing, Blaming, Nagging, Threatening, Punishing, Rewarding to control. But a lot of us don't think about it and keep using these habits, especially with our loved ones, pushing away from us those who we want to be close to, and to be aware of these so that we can aske "Am I useing any of these habits right now?" can help us make different choices. And witnessing is not "I got ta save them" but sharing information that they may decide to implement and find useful in their life. We know at the end, saved or lost they will be the best place they can be, safe in the arms of Jesus.

[teresaq]

Gibs,

Why is Jesus the way, the truth, and the life?

For all of us, are we considering the role of the Holy Spirit in all of this?

Bravus,

I keep hearing about "time and place". Your text comes from the same book that said the heathen who never had the law yet kept it had the law written on their heart.

So your text, for me, would apply to those of us who have heard of Jesus and make all these claims - also touched on in that same book.

Skimming through Romans 10 it looks like all who have never heard of Christ or the bible yet have His character, have responded to the Holy Spirit, will be raised with some strange beliefs indeed. While those of us who have the book (bible) will have very little excuse...

If this discussion keeps going it is going to be very good practice in getting out thoughts across without quoting. I hope we all take the challenge. :)

[Gibs]

Ya can't have one without the other, they are one.

1 John 4:4

[Bravus]

So, Gibs, what is your answer as to the fate of those who never hear the gospel?

[phkrause]

Excellent question Bravus, I'd be interested in the response to that. I know a few theologians have commented on this. If I'm not mistaken somewhere in the NT Jesus makes a remark about the Jews and the Gentiles, and I think it has a bearing on this. I'm gonna see if I can find it.

[teresaq]

I would agree Gibs, but the question is, why is Jesus the way, truth and life? In what way are they "one"?

Is this something you have ever meditated on?

[Twilight II]

Clearly it is talking about Jesus death opening up the way to eternal life.

The character aspect is received after entering the gate through sanctification, not before.

If that is understood there is no difficulty here.

[phkrause]

Not sure I fully agree twilight, doesn't the Bible say something about that are characters are all we take to heaven?

[Woody]

Don't know about that pk. But EGW says something along these lines:

That the Father will behold not your faulty character.

Praise God - He sees NOT my character - for if He did - I would not be headed to heaven.

[Twilight II]

Hi Pk. :-)

Do you get the Holy Spirit because you are sanctified?

Or do you get the Holy Spirit because of what Jesus did and then you are sanctified over time?

[Woody]

Praise God pk - sanctification is the work of a lifetime. And it will never get done till we see His face at the Second Coming.

[Woody]

This is what I believe -

I believe that ALL of the saved will need their characters reformed or changed. That will be done in a moment in the twinkling of an eye at the second coming. We will THEN be fit for Heaven. Not before.

[Naomi]

[Bravus]

The question remains open: are those who never hear of Christ saved? And if so, using what criterion?

[Woody]

Christ promises to draw ALL unto Him. I have to believe that includes even those who have not "heard" of Him. He instills in them what is needed. And He and Only He knows what the response of their heart IS.