1844

[John317]

Let's focus on you showing me that heaven is a physical place, with a physical location in the universe. Why does Jesus come to restore Israel and set up the new Jerusalem here on earth if we all belong in a place called Heaven that is somewhere in space ?

I think what's important for you right now is to understand SDA beliefs about the Investigative Judgment, not whether you agree with every aspect, including whether heaven is a literl place. We can deal fully with that question later and in a separate discussion.

However, for the time being, let me ask you to consider a few questions:

1) Do you believe Enoch and Elijah are real human beings? The Bible teaches that they were translated physically into heaven. Where did these literal, physical beings go if heaven is not a literal place?

2) Jesus is a literal, physical person-- both God and man. He has a human, physical body, though glorified. See Acts 1 and John 20: 24-29 for proof of this. Our glofified bodies will be like Christ's. 1 Cor. 15.

Don't you believe Christ-- a real man-- is in a real place?

Hebrews and Revelation certainl indicate that Christ is in a real place, and this real place is heaven.

3) The Bible teaches that the saved will be real, physical beings and that we will eat and drink. After God recreates the earth, the saved will live on the earth and inhabit real houses. Rev. 21 & 22.

Do you believe this?

[BibleOnly]

Bible also talks about the Garden of Eden and the "Tree of Life". We all believe this tree of life to be literal.

Scriptures talk about a "Tree of Life" in the New Jerusalem.

If the New Jerusalem were symbolic, and not literal, then this tree would be symbolic as well. What is God doing making a literal Tree of Life on earth, but is only symbolic in heaven?

Makes no sense.

I believe it makes the most sense that the Tree of Life in heaven was the same one that was on earth. But God removed the Garden of Eden from the earth before He destroyed it by a flood, and took it to heaven.

So He's been gardening all these years ? you guys are too much fun :-)

Here's what I'd suggest. There is no literal tree that God relies on to give people life. Even in Eden, the tree gave life only because God chose that it would, even as the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was not full of strange chemicals, but represented a choice man could make. For that reason, God doesn't need a literal natural place that is heaven, complete with seasons and dirt and worms so a tree can live. Instead, Revelation being a book of word pictures, the offer of life that was given in Eden, will be given in the new Jerusalem, which will be here on earth. What will happen in heaven once God moves operations back to earth, will it just have a few caretakers or just be allowed to atrophy, as all natural buildings do ?

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: John3:17

Are you denying that Jesus forgives people today? Do you ever ask Jesus for forgiveness for your sins?

Are you saying that no one has been justified since the cross?

Can you show where the Bible clearly teaches that every individual who will ever live has already been justified?

Quote:

Many times John317 I have shown you this.

Again, Romans chapter five.

No, you have not shown this at all. You think you did, but you didn't. Romans 5 says no such thing.

Can you at least give the post# and the discussion where you believe you have shown that all people have already been justified?

I believe you are referring to Romans 5: 15, 18,19, but these verses don't say what you claim they say.

Quote:

Romans 5:15, 18,19--

But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.

Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.

The Bible says over and over again that justification is by faith in Christ. Chapter 5 begins with the statement that people are justified by faith:

Quote:

Romans 5:1

Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

The same thing is said in Romans 3: 28 and Galatians 2: 16 and 3: 24:

Romans 3:28

For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Galatians 2:16

yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ...

Galatians 3:24

So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.

NOWHERE DOES THE BIBLE TEACH THAT PEOPLE ARE JUSTIFIED APART FROM FAITH.

Christ's sacrifice and death on the cross made it possible for all humanity to be justified by faith in His sacrifice. If I refuse to receive God's gift through faith, I won't be justified or saved.

The Investigative Judgment reveals who has truly received God's gift and who hasn't. A lot of people merely claim they've accepted Christ when in reality they've never done so.

Matt. 7: 21-23 refers to such people:

Matthew 7:21-23

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. [22] On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' [23] And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

I highlighted in red and also underlined for you the statement that is as clear as anything can be.

The text does not say "by faith".

The text clearly states that we are Justified by the Death of Jesus Christ apart from anything we humans do. The text does not say we are Justified because we did something. It just simply says that all humans are Justified by what Jesus Christ did. It is God's Gift.

It also says that because of what Jesus Christ did all humans have been made righteous (see underlined in red texts above).

Now my friend you are free to believe what you want. You are also free to deny what the Scripture plainly says. However the text says what it says and nothing can change the FACT that all humans are Justified just because of what Jesus Christ did and humans, all humans did absolutely nothing.

Those listening to our discussion will also decide. Either you see the clearness of what I posted or you don't.

[John317]

...So He's been gardening all these years ? you guys are too much fun :-)

You're not listening or comprehending what's being said. No one said that God has been gardening all these years.

[phkrause]

I'm sorry, I have nothing to say to that, which might not appear insulting.

The core issue appears always to be that Ellen White overrides common sense. Do you believe that masturbation causes insanity ? She did. Do you believe that viruses are the primary cause of cancer ? She did.

I've some things on thos thread and others that don't make sense either, so what's new?????

I for one never enjoyed reading EGW, but as the years went by, I started reading her book "the Great Controversy" and thought I was reading a history book of events I'd studied in school. And not only that, was finding myself seeing day to day events being played out. As far as I'm concerned her writings make common sense to me. I read where things she wrote over 100 years ago are being verified as life goes on. I also have talked to non SDA doctors who actually say that most cancers are viruses. I also remembering reading that somewhere, its been a few years, so not sure where. As far as the masturbation, I have heard rumors to that effect, but no two researches have agreed. So lets not rule out stuff because we don't want to agree with someone or it doesn't make sense. Cause like I mentioned, there are some posts here that don't make sense either.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

1. I am seriously saying that God through Jesus Christ actually saved "everyone" on the Cross.

That is much different than saying that everyone will go to Heaven and live forever.

OK, if you mean that Jesus made it possible for everyone to be saved, then O agree

Originally Posted By: miz3

2. Not everyone will be in "saved in Heaven" even though God on the Cross saved every human by dying for all their sins.

Hebrews chapter two verse three states that many will "REJECT" the great Salvation of our Lord Jesus Christ.

So not everyone will be in Heaven, but all have had their sins paid in full because of Jesus Christ as Paul in Romans chapter five clearly states.

I feel like this is a slightly weird way of saying it, but again, if you mean that Jesus did everything required to save everyone, but people will reject that salvation and it's their fault, not God's, I agree.

Originally Posted By: miz3

3. Many people even in SDAism don't like this because it means the human entity did absolutely nothing in order to be saved.

These ones are desperate to have the human entity "doing" something in order to be saved.

Maybe not all but many of these same humans are worried about "cheap grace" so like those in the days of Paul they want to create hurdles for humans to jump over in order to show their worthiness to being saved.

Unfortunately for such ones Romans chapter five is quite clear that there are no hurdles for any human to jump over.

The "gift" is absolutely free and requires nothing from the human entity. There are NO BARRIERS FOR HUMANS TO GO THROUGH IN ORDER TO BE SAVED. God did it all.

OK, I think you're paraphrasing SDA belief, which I agree is founded in legalism, but I don't see anyone here consciously believing what you're saying.

1. I am glad that we agree.

2. I also agree that SDA current official doctrine requires a person to show and/or demonstrate in some fashion that they are legally fit to be in heaven.

3. I am not trying to get everyone to agree with me. I state the Truth. If another person agrees then fine. If not that is also fine. We are each accountable only to God. People are not accountable to me. If they were accountable to me then it would be important that they agree with me.

What is important is: Do you agree with God and what God has Written in His Word the Bible?

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: John317

I will do my best to answer your questions about the Investigative Judgment, but since I've posted hundreds of posts on this topic over the past 7 years, I will also give you two links where you can read and study the topic on your own:

Entire book:

http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/27/index.htm

Chapter regarding the Investigative Judgment:

http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/27/27-23.htm

You might also do well to do a search on the Forum of what has already been posted on the topic. You will probably find that your questions are answered there.

Interesting. I have read a bit of it. I found this:

And as during the typical Day of Atonement the cleansing of the earthly sanctuary removed the sins accumulated there, so the heavenly sanctuary is cleansed by the final removal of the record of sins in the heavenly books. But before the records are finally cleared, they will be examined to determine who through repentance and faith in Christ is entitled to enter His eternal kingdom. The cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary, therefore, involves a work of investigation or judgment29 that fully reflects the nature of the Day of Atonement as a day of judgment.30 This judgment, which ratifies the decision as to who will be saved and who will be lost, must take place before the Second Advent, for at that time Christ returns with His reward "'to give to every one according to his work'" (Rev. 22:12). Then, also, Satan's accusations will be answered (cf. Rev. 12:10).

All who have truly repented and by faith claimed the blood of Christ's atoning sacrifice have received pardon. When their names come up in this judgment and they are found clothed with the robe of Christ's righteousness, their sins are blotted out and they are accounted worthy of eternal life (Luke 20:35). "'He who overcomes, '" Jesus said, "'shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels'" (Rev. 3:5).

I don't believe God keeps a 'record of sins' in a book, and has to review them. I don't believe that there's a physical place where God has physical books with physical writing in them. I think that's all a metaphor, because God is spirit, He's not sitting in any particular place, He's everywhere, and no-one above anywhere else.

I also found this:

It is clear, therefore, that the Scriptures present the heavenly sanctuary as a real place (Heb. 8:2, NEB), not a metaphor or abstraction.4 The heavenly sanctuary is the primary dwelling place of God.

The message of the sanctuary was a message of salvation. God used its services to proclaim the gospel (Heb. 4:2).

Hbr 8:1 ¶ Now of the things which we have spoken [this is] the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

Hbr 8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

I don't think this proves that this is not a metaphor, he's using the language of the Hebrews to talk to the Hebrews. It's not wrong, but it does not have to be literal. It's the following through of a type.

Hbr 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard [it].

This does not mention a tabernacle at all, this verse doesn't remotely prove what the article claims.

I'm reading the rest, but it seems shaky to me. I just don't see any verse actually saying that God has a written list of sins, or that He'd need a long time to review them, or would ever not know who is saved and who is not.

Good observations Bible Only.

[Gibs]

I would just add this verse,

Re 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[miz3]

That's very true, pk.

It isn't news to informed SDAs that Ellen White used writings from other people. She didn't merely copy those writings, but she changed them in order to express what God had shown her in vision. She never tried to hide the fact that she sometimes used other people's writings. She recommended those same books to her family and friends, and the church paper advertized them. She wrote in the Introduction to Great Controversy that she used the writings of other people, but they weren't used as authorities. Her work has been closely examined by attorneys specializing in copyright law, and they have concluded that Ellen White did nothing either unethical or illegal in her use of other people's writings.

What many people are unaware of is that the writers she "copied" also copied from other writers. It was common in her day, and it wasn't considered wrong or illegal.

Mark, Matthew and Luke also "copied" each other's writings.

No doubt Moses also "copied" some ancient documents, and we know that the book of Proverbs uses some of the ancient proverbs of Egypt-- all without giving those sources credit.

Having said that, though, there's no doubt that both Ellen White and Moses, Matthew, Mark and Luke would all have done differently if they had been writing in our day and under our legal system.

Are you aware that Ellen White copied from "fiction" in her writings. You should have seen that in the material that was posted?

Is copying from a fiction book "inspired"?

Second you say lawyers approved but these were SDA lawyers who work for the SDA Church .org.

There are other lawyers who disagree and believe that Ellen White actually broke the copyright laws of her day.

Third it was not common in her day to plagiarize and it was a crime then as it is now to plagiarize the work of others to the large extent that Ellen White did.

Fourth it is interesting the lengths the Church .org will go and has gone to cover Ellen White. Even people like Ron Greybill, Raymond Cottrel staunch pillars in the leadership of the SDA Church .org have been amazed at the extensive copying and the cover ups in the SDA Church .org. Not to mention even Prescott over hundred years ago stating that the SDA Church would pay a dear price for all the cover ups and hiding of the Truth from the people in the pew.

Is the what God approves of in His so-called "remnant people"?

Doesn't the Bible say something about "your sins being found out"?

[John317]

... Romans 5:15, 18,19--

But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.

Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.

....I highlighted in red and also underlined for you the statement that is as clear as anything can be.

The text does not say "by faith".

The text clearly states that we are Justified by the Death of Jesus Christ apart from anything we humans do. The text does not say we are Justified because we did something. It just simply says that all humans are Justified by what Jesus Christ did. It is God's Gift.

It also says that because of what Jesus Christ did all humans have been made righteous (see underlined in red texts above).

The apostle wrote those verses long after the death of Christ, yet he says "will be made righteous," proving that he is not saying all were made righteous at the time of Christ's death.

Romans 5: 18 says, literally, "the result of one act of righteousness for/unto justification of life for all men."

Notice there is no verb; it has to be supplied by the translator. The verb could be "was" or "will be." Some translators prefer to add the verb "leads."

The verb "leads" in the above quote of Roman 5: 18, then, was added by the translator.

The point here is that the text as Paul wrote it does not say that people are all justfied before they are born and apart from faith in Christ.

For sure, Christ died for us before we were born. We had nothing to do with Christ's ssacrifice for us. But we would be in grave error to assume-- against all the Bible evidence which clearly states otherwise-- that Paul is sayin all people are justified without faith in Christ. This goes directly contrary to everything else the Scriptures tell us about justification. Again, notice the very first statement of Romans 5:

Romans 5:1

Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

This text says that those who have no faith in Christ have no peace with God.

This would not be the case if all men are justified and are therefore already at peace with God before they are born.

But again, let me ask you-- what difference does it make as far as the Investigative Judgment is concerned?

If what you say is correct-- that all humans are justified-- why aren't all humans saved in God's kingdom?

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

Bible also talks about the Garden of Eden and the "Tree of Life". We all believe this tree of life to be literal.

Scriptures talk about a "Tree of Life" in the New Jerusalem.

If the New Jerusalem were symbolic, and not literal, then this tree would be symbolic as well. What is God doing making a literal Tree of Life on earth, but is only symbolic in heaven?

Makes no sense.

I believe it makes the most sense that the Tree of Life in heaven was the same one that was on earth. But God removed the Garden of Eden from the earth before He destroyed it by a flood, and took it to heaven.

So He's been gardening all these years ? you guys are too much fun :-)

Here's what I'd suggest. There is no literal tree that God relies on to give people life. Even in Eden, the tree gave life only because God chose that it would, even as the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was not full of strange chemicals, but represented a choice man could make. For that reason, God doesn't need a literal natural place that is heaven, complete with seasons and dirt and worms so a tree can live. Instead, Revelation being a book of word pictures, the offer of life that was given in Eden, will be given in the new Jerusalem, which will be here on earth. What will happen in heaven once God moves operations back to earth, will it just have a few caretakers or just be allowed to atrophy, as all natural buildings do ?

Good questions BibleOnly.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

... Romans 5:15, 18,19--

But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.

Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.

....I highlighted in red and also underlined for you the statement that is as clear as anything can be.

The text does not say "by faith".

The text clearly states that we are Justified by the Death of Jesus Christ apart from anything we humans do. The text does not say we are Justified because we did something. It just simply says that all humans are Justified by what Jesus Christ did. It is God's Gift.

It also says that because of what Jesus Christ did all humans have been made righteous (see underlined in red texts above).

The apostle wrote those verses long after the death of Christ, yet he says "will be made righteous," proving that he is not saying all were made righteous at the time of Christ's death.

Romans 5: 18 says, literally, "the result of one act of righteousness for/unto justification of life for all men."

Notice there is no verb; it has to be supplied by the translator. The verb could be "was" or "will be." Some translators prefer to add the verb "leads."

The verb "leads" in the above quote of Roman 5: 18, then, was added by the translator.

The point here is that the text as Paul wrote it does not say that people are all justfied before they are born and apart from faith in Christ.

For sure, Christ died for us before we were born. We had nothing to do with Christ's ssacrifice for us. But we would be in grave error to assume-- against all the Bible evidence which clearly states otherwise-- that Paul is sayin all people are justified without faith in Christ. This goes directly contrary to everything else the Scriptures tell us about justification. Again, notice the very first statement of Romans 5:

Romans 5:1

Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

This text says that those who have no faith in Christ have no peace with God.

This would not be the case if all men are justified and are therefore already at peace with God before they are born.

But again, let me ask you-- what difference does it make as far as the Investigative Judgment is concerned?

If what you say is correct-- that all humans are justified-- why aren't all humans saved in God's kingdom?

Like I said John317 you can twist the Word of God any way you choose. You are free to do as you please.

I read the Bible as it is.

We are just different. I showed you what the Bible actually says but you want to do things differently.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As for the Investigative Judgment, it is not in the Bible. SDA Church .org doctrine uses Ellen White to make this doctrine valid. Without Ellen White's blessing on this doctrine (concept) SDA have no doctrine of the Investigative Judgment.

I believe it was Raymond Cottrell himself that believed without Ellen White SDA could not prove the Investigative Judgement.

Your little colloquy with Bible Only shows that when you use the Bible and the Bible only it is impossible to prove that an Investigative Judgment is real.

The only way is to bring in Ellen White which Lysimachus finally did.

There is no need for an Investigative Judgment. Any need you might come up with inevitably brings us back to Ellen White.

The Bible and the Bible only does not give us a reason for the IJ.

Why would the angels need an IJ? Why would the unfallen beings on other planets need the IJ?

If the angels and the unfallen beings need the IJ then why does the Bible and the Bible only not say that these angels and these pure beings had doubts about God?

The ONLY PLACE TO GET THAT SUCH HAD DOUBTS, you guessed it Ellen White because it is not found in the Bible.

You cannot even use the Bible and the Bible only to show a list of grievances Satan against God. Again, you have to go to Ellen White to show such a list.

This is why the IJ is all too funny as someone pointed out.

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

Bible also talks about the Garden of Eden and the "Tree of Life". We all believe this tree of life to be literal.

Scriptures talk about a "Tree of Life" in the New Jerusalem.

If the New Jerusalem were symbolic, and not literal, then this tree would be symbolic as well. What is God doing making a literal Tree of Life on earth, but is only symbolic in heaven?

Makes no sense.

I believe it makes the most sense that the Tree of Life in heaven was the same one that was on earth. But God removed the Garden of Eden from the earth before He destroyed it by a flood, and took it to heaven.

So He's been gardening all these years ? you guys are too much fun :-)

Here's what I'd suggest. There is no literal tree that God relies on to give people life. Even in Eden, the tree gave life only because God chose that it would, even as the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was not full of strange chemicals, but represented a choice man could make. For that reason, God doesn't need a literal natural place that is heaven, complete with seasons and dirt and worms so a tree can live. Instead, Revelation being a book of word pictures, the offer of life that was given in Eden, will be given in the new Jerusalem, which will be here on earth. What will happen in heaven once God moves operations back to earth, will it just have a few caretakers or just be allowed to atrophy, as all natural buildings do ?

You sure have some strange philosophy BibleOnly. God doesn't need to garden. All he has to do is speak, and it will take care of itself.

Of course God does not need people to eat from a tree to maintain eternal life. But God has chosen it to be this way. God chose that when Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden fruit, life would be taken from them. Not because the fruit itself did it, but because God made it happen that way. It was a test.

God's word is explicit:

Revelation:

"22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations."

This is both symbolic and literal at the same time. There is a literal tree, and we will literally eat from it, just like Adam and Eve literally ate from the Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden.

The tree also represents Christ that gives life. There is full of rich meaning, yet the literal represents spiritual principles.

[John317]

The core issue appears always to be that Ellen White overrides common sense. Do you believe that masturbation causes insanity ? She did.

Do you believe that viruses are the primary cause of cancer ? She did.

The verdict on masturbatin has not yet been definitively given. Ellen White never said that all people who masturbate will go insane. Masturbation is certainly not a good habit to have.

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

Do you believe that viruses are the primary cause of cancer ? She did.

Ellen White was right about cancer: she said it is caused by "germs". The word "virus" did not exist in her day.

On the causes of cervix cancer:

Quote:

With the exception of the rare 'clear cell' cervical cancers, nearly all primary cervix cancers are caused by the wart virus. The wart virus is also called Human Papilloma Virus (HPV)

http://www.cervixcancer.org.uk/Causes.htm

Quote:

Most squamous cell anal cancers seem to be linked to infection by the human papilloma virus (HPV), the same virus that causes cervical cancer. In fact, women who have had cervical cancer (or pre-cancer) have an increased risk of anal cancer.

Quote:

A sharp rise in a type of throat cancer among men is increasingly being linked to HPV, the sexually transmitted human papillomavirus that can cause cervical cancer in women.

[Guest]

Hey John, good to see you.

[Lysimachus]

I'm sorry, but this is insane. First of all, I suspect the death of Princess Diana created a more worldwide 'disappointment', but your logic is ridiculous.

Here's what you claim

1 - some people applied math to some passages in the Bible

2 - they concluded Jesus would visibly return in 1844

3 - He did not

4 - the fact that people were greatly disappointed proves that the maths was correct

See how that's a circular argument ?

I would propose this is not insane, BibleOnly.

1. It was not "some" that applied the math to these passages in the Bible, it was MANY, all over the world. Sound exegesis proves that the "mareh" vision of Dan 9:20-23, 24-27 is the SAME "mareh" vision of Dan 8:26,27, but picking up where it left off. The "mareh" of the "evening and morning" is referring to the "2300 evening-mornings" of verse 14. It's not hard to put two and two together.

2. Yes, they concluded He would visibly return to the earth, but why? Because they thought the earth was the sanctuary that was going to be "cleansed" by fire, not realizing that there was a "heavenly sanctuary" that needed cleansing (Heb 9:23). This disappointment was no different than the Disciples (as well as all the Jewish crowds) thinking that Jesus was going to come and establish an earthly throne. Christ's Church was built on a massive disappointment.

3. He did not come to the earth, but He came to the Ancient of Days--this was not understood until after October 22, 1844. Ellen White, in vision, was shown exactly what transpired in heaven--and her vision had confirmed what Hiram Edson and Crosier had already concluded. The world-wide disappointment and commotion that enveloped the world was a "reflection" of something big happening in heaven.

4. I never said that the fact that people were disappointed proves the math to be correct. The math was correct before the disappointment, as well as after. It lands in 1844. We could argue about the math, but I guarantee the conclusion will be the same. October 22, 1844 is unmovable, it has been tried, tested, assailed, and it has withstood all scrutiny, inside and out, through and through (pickle-publishing.com for example). People being disappointed does not prove the math was correct, but what happened in 1844 "confirms" that something big was happening in heaven in that year. Whether something happened on earth or not, the math does not lie.

[Lysimachus]

In Daniel 9:24, Daniel says that 70 weeks are "determined" for the Jews. The word "determined" in the Hebrew is "chatak", and it means "cut off". It means dividing or cutting off a portion off of a larger portion, according to a number of Jewish encyclopedias, and it is the only place in the entire Bible the word is used.

We all agree that these 70 week = 490 days = 490 years .... or 69 weeks = 483 years, and 1 week = 7 years

This is in perfect alignment with Ezekiel 4:5,6 and Numbers 14:34.

Remember that Ezekiel was Daniel's contemporary, and this is why it makes perfect sense for Daniel to employ this same hermeneutic.

The point that is being made here is this....

Daniel 9:24-27 is picking up the SAME vision from the vision of the 2300 days in Daniel 8:14.

In Daniel 8:14, we have sanctuary language being employed:

2300 evening-mornings = 2300 days = 2300 years.

The expression "evening-mornings" is referring to the daily sanctuary activities, such as the evening-morning lights that burned continually.

70 weeks are cut off from the 2300 years or portioned out, or decreed for the Jews.

In Daniel 8, Daniel starts out by saying that he sees a "vision" (chazon) (verse 2). In this "chazon", he sees a Ram which represents Persia, and a Goat which represents Greece. Then he sees a Great Horn growing out of the Goat, which represents Alexander the Great, and it smashes the Ram (vs. 3-7). ....

In verse 8 the goat becomes great, but then the great horn (Alexander) is broken, and in his place came up 4 horns. This was Alexander's empire divided into 4 kingdoms, between his 4 generals, Seleucus, Ptolemy, Lysimachus and Cassander.

In verse 8, the 4 horns go toward the four winds of heaven, and then a Little Horn comes out of one of the four winds as well. It waxes great, and goes up even to the host of heaven--and casts the place of his sanctuary down. It attacks heaven's sanctuary in other words. A great host was given him and he prospered, and took away the daily (continuum). (vs. 9-12).

Now verse 13 is the key....

Daniel hear's one angel asking another angel, "How LONG shall the vision (chazon), the daily, and transgression fo desolation to give both the sanctuary and host the host to be trodden under foot? And then the other angel responded and said....."Unto 2300 evening-mornings, then shall the sanctuary be cleansed"

Now think about this....

The issue here is "how long is all this garbage going to last?" In other words, everything that Daniel saw...the Ram, the Goat, the Great Horn, the 4 horns, and the Little Horn....how long is all this going to go on?

These kingdoms together in this entire vision cover a lot more than 2300 literal days, they cover centuries. Empires cover centuries, so it cannot be just merely 6.4 years. It must be 2300 years being spoken of here.

Now notice something interesting....

In verse 15, Daniel says he "saw" the vision, and was seeking its meaning, and then he saw Gabriel who now is going to make him understand the vision.

In Verse 16, The man said "Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision (MAREH)".

Now notice that before the word for vision was "chazon"? Now, the Angel Gabriel is going to make Daniel understand the "mareh", meaning, the 2300 days part. The Hebrew for "days" is "evening-mornings".

Now here's my point...

The "chazon" has to do with the entire vision of what Daniel saw--the ram, goat, horns, etc.

The "mareh" has to do with the "time length" of the vision (chazon).

It has to do with the audition between the two angels concerning the length of the vision. The "mareh" is an audition, an appearance.

Let's jump to verse 26 and 27....

"(26) The vision [MAREH] of the EVENINGS and the MORNINGS that has been told is true, but seal up the vision [CHAZON], for it refers to many days from now...."

(27) And I, Daniel, was overcome and lay sick for some days. Then I rose and went about the king’s business, but I was appalled by the vision [MAREH] and did NOT understand it."

That's the ESV translation. The KJV for verse 27 says "And I Daniel fainted". He was overcome, and fainted, and was sick.

He did not understand the meaning of the mareh of the evenings and mornings. Daniel 8:14 says "and Unto 2300 evenings and mornings shall the sanctuary be cleansed", so that part is the Mareh.

What does this mean?

This means that the angel could not finish explaining the vision of the 2300 evenings and mornings to Daniel because Daniel fainted and did not understand. In all previous visions, in Daniel 2 and 7, Daniel always understood. The angel never leaves until Daniel understands. But he could not because Daniel fell ill. He was overwhelmed by what he saw. So guess what this means?

It means that the same Angel GABRIEL is going to have to continue and finish the SAME vision (mareh) in the next chapter! (chapter 9).

So in Daniel 9:1-20, Daniel is praying to God, praying for His people Israel. He is now thinking that God has forsaken his people.... he is asking that his people be delivered because the70 year captivity of the Jews is almost up. He probably fainted because he thought maybe God extended the 70 year captivity to 2300 years of captivity, and this was overwhelming to him, and he did not understand.

So the angel Gabriel comes back....

(9:21) "Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision [CHAZON] at the beginning [Meaning, the vision in Daniel 8], being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation...."

"(22) And he informed [me], and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and UNDERSTANDING."

Question: What was it that Daniel did not understand in Daniel 8?

It was the mareh of the evening and morning, right?

Some Bible translations say "twenty three hundred evening and mornings" It's just a fancy, sanctuary way say to say "days", because since the issue is sanctuary language. Goats and Rams were used in sanctuary services and candles burned from "evening to morning", meaning, all day long.

So now notice what happens in verse 23....

"(9:23) At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to show [thee]; for thou [art] greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision [MAREH]"....

So now the angel Gabriel is going to describe the 2300 day portion of the vision.

He goes on to say that 70 weeks are determined, or cut off, for the Jewish people....

In other words, the Jewish nation has 70 weeks to accomlplish the listed things....

You will notice that the 70 weeks and the 2300 days are intrinsically connected to one another. Daniel 8 and 9 are intrinsically linked. They cannot be separated. It's the same mareh that Daniel did not understand in chapter 8. It's all the same vision, just broken up into 2 parts because Daniel fainted and fell ill. The angel Gabriel couldn't finish.

So here is the question: If the 70 weeks are cut off the 2300 days, and the 2300 days reached to the time of the end as Daniel 8 says....then....the 2300 days and the 70 weeks must begin at the same time!

Daniel 9:26 tells us that the 70 weeks begins at the command to restore and build Jerusalem. This decree is mentioned in Ezra 7, to restore Jerusalem, and Ezra 9:9 too. This decree went forth in the year 457 B.C.

This means that the 2300 years began in 457 B.C. So count 2300 years from 457 B.C., and well, this is the picture you get:

Just the 70 weeks:

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

I'm sorry, but this is insane. First of all, I suspect the death of Princess Diana created a more worldwide 'disappointment', but your logic is ridiculous.

Here's what you claim

1 - some people applied math to some passages in the Bible

2 - they concluded Jesus would visibly return in 1844

3 - He did not

4 - the fact that people were greatly disappointed proves that the maths was correct

See how that's a circular argument ?

No. No. No. There you go again Miz3! You don't seem to learn very well, so Here I go:

It is not insane. What you are proposing is insane.

1. It was not "some" that applied the math to these passages in the Bible, it was MANY, all over the world. Sound exegesis proves that the "mareh" vision of Dan 9:20-23, 24-27 is the SAME "mareh" vision of Dan 8:26,27, but picking up where it left off. The "mareh" of the "evening and morning" is referring to the "2300 evening-mornings" of verse 14. It's not hard to put two and two together.

2. Yes, they concluded He would visibly return to the earth, but why? Because they thought the earth was the sanctuary that was going to be "cleansed" by fire, not realizing that there was a "heavenly sanctuary" that needed cleansing (Heb 9:23). This disappointment was no different than the Disciples (as well as all the Jewish crowds) thinking that Jesus was going to come and establish an earthly throne. Christ's Church was built on a massive disappointment.

3. He did not come to the earth, but He came to the Ancient of Days--this was not understood until after October 22, 1844. Ellen White, in vision, was shown exactly what transpired in heaven--and her vision had confirmed what Hiram Edson and Crosier had already concluded. The world-wide disappointment and commotion that enveloped the world was a "reflection" of something big happening in heaven.

4. I never said that the fact that people were disappointed proves the math to be correct. The math was correct before the disappointment, as well as after. It lands in 1844. We could argue about the math, and I guarantee you that you will lose. I've debated the staunchest opponents to the math, and they always fall flat on their face. October 22, 1844 is unmovable, it has been tried, tested, assailed, and it has withstood all scrutiny, inside and out, through and through (pickle-publishing.com for example). People being disappointed does not prove the math was correct, but what happened in 1844 "confirms" that something big was happening in heaven in that year. Whether something happened on earth or not, the math does not lie.

Look again Lysimachus. You said Miz3 and Miz3 is not who you quoted.

Are you all right?

[John317]

Thanks, Richard. Very good to see you, too. Merry Christmas!

I go in to the hospital Dec. 28 and will be there for about 4-5 days. Am having a cancerous tumor removed from a kidney. Doctor says it is quite small so it hasn't spread at all.

[John317]

Wonderful post, Lysimachus. I like those diagrams and your explanations are excellent, too.

[miz3]

In Daniel 9:24, Daniel says that 70 weeks are "determined" for the Jews. The word "determined" in the Hebrew is "chatak", and it means "cut off". It means dividing or cutting off a portion off of a larger portion, according to a number of Jewish encyclopedias, and it is the only place in the entire Bible the word is used.

We all agree that these 70 week = 490 days = 490 years .... or 69 weeks = 483 years, and 1 week = 7 years

This is in perfect alignment with Ezekiel 4:5,6 and Numbers 14:34.

Remember that Ezekiel was Daniel's contemporary, and this is why it makes perfect sense for Daniel to employ this same hermeneutic.

The point that is being made here is this....

Daniel 9:24-27 is picking up the SAME vision from the vision of the 2300 days in Daniel 8:14.

In Daniel 8:14, we have sanctuary language being employed:

2300 evening-mornings = 2300 days = 2300 years.

The expression "evening-mornings" is referring to the daily sanctuary activities, such as the evening-morning lights that burned continually.

70 weeks are cut off from the 2300 years or portioned out, or decreed for the Jews.

In Daniel 8, Daniel starts out by saying that he sees a "vision" (chazon) (verse 2). In this "chazon", he sees a Ram which represents Persia, and a Goat which represents Greece. Then he sees a Great Horn growing out of the Goat, which represents Alexander the Great, and it smashes the Ram (vs. 3-7). ....

In verse 8 the goat becomes great, but then the great horn (Alexander) is broken, and in his place came up 4 horns. This was Alexander's empire divided into 4 kingdoms, between his 4 generals, Seleucus, Ptolemy, Lysimachus and Cassander.

In verse 8, the 4 horns go toward the four winds of heaven, and then a Little Horn comes out of one of the four winds as well. It waxes great, and goes up even to the host of heaven--and casts the place of his sanctuary down. It attacks heaven's sanctuary in other words. A great host was given him and he prospered, and took away the daily (continuum). (vs. 9-12).

Now verse 13 is the key....

Daniel hear's one angel asking another angel, "How LONG shall the vision (chazon), the daily, and transgression fo desolation to give both the sanctuary and host the host to be trodden under foot? And then the other angel responded and said....."Unto 2300 evening-mornings, then shall the sanctuary be cleansed"

Now think about this....

The issue here is "how long is all this garbage going to last?" In other words, everything that Daniel saw...the Ram, the Goat, the Great Horn, the 4 horns, and the Little Horn....how long is all this going to go on?

These kingdoms together in this entire vision cover a lot more than 2300 literal days, they cover centuries. Empires cover centuries, so it cannot be just merely 6.4 years. It must be 2300 years being spoken of here.

Now notice something interesting....

In verse 15, Daniel says he "saw" the vision, and was seeking its meaning, and then he saw Gabriel who now is going to make him understand the vision.

In Verse 16, The man said "Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision (MAREH)".

Now notice that before the word for vision was "chazon"? Now, the Angel Gabriel is going to make Daniel understand the "mareh", meaning, the 2300 days part. The Hebrew for "days" is "evening-mornings".

Now here's my point...

The "chazon" has to do with the entire vision of what Daniel saw--the ram, goat, horns, etc.

The "mareh" has to do with the "time length" of the vision (chazon).

It has to do with the audition between the two angels concerning the length of the vision. The "mareh" is an audition, an appearance.

Let's jump to verse 26 and 27....

"(26) The vision [MAREH] of the EVENINGS and the MORNINGS that has been told is true, but seal up the vision [CHAZON], for it refers to many days from now...."

(27) And I, Daniel, was overcome and lay sick for some days. Then I rose and went about the king’s business, but I was appalled by the vision [MAREH] and did NOT understand it."

That's the ESV translation. The KJV for verse 27 says "And I Daniel fainted". He was overcome, and fainted, and was sick.

He did not understand the meaning of the mareh of the evenings and mornings. Daniel 8:14 says "and Unto 2300 evenings and mornings shall the sanctuary be cleansed", so that part is the Mareh.

What does this mean?

This means that the angel could not finish explaining the vision of the 2300 evenings and mornings to Daniel because Daniel fainted and did not understand. In all previous visions, in Daniel 2 and 7, Daniel always understood. The angel never leaves until Daniel understands. But he could not because Daniel fell ill. He was overwhelmed by what he saw. So guess what this means?

It means that the same Angel GABRIEL is going to have to continue and finish the SAME vision (mareh) in the next chapter! (chapter 9).

So in Daniel 9:1-20, Daniel is praying to God, praying for His people Israel. He is now thinking that God has forsaken his people.... he is asking that his people be delivered because the70 year captivity of the Jews is almost up. He probably fainted because he thought maybe God extended the 70 year captivity to 2300 years of captivity, and this was overwhelming to him, and he did not understand.

So the angel Gabriel comes back....

(9:21) "Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision [CHAZON] at the beginning [Meaning, the vision in Daniel 8], being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation...."

"(22) And he informed [me], and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and UNDERSTANDING."

Question: What was it that Daniel did not understand in Daniel 8?

It was the mareh of the evening and morning, right?

Some Bible translations say "twenty three hundred evening and mornings" It's just a fancy, sanctuary way say to say "days", cuz since the issue is sanctuary language. Goats and Rams were used in sanctuary services and candles burned from "evening to morning", meaning, all day long.

So now notice what happens in verse 23....

"(9:23) At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to show [thee]; for thou [art] greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision [MAREH]"....

So now the angel Gabriel is going to describe the 2300 day portion of the vision.

He goes on to say that 70 weeks are determined, or cut off, for the Jewish people....

In other words, the Jewish nation has 70 weeks to accomlplish the listed things....

You will notice Vinod that the 70 weeks and the 2300 days are intrinsically connected to one another. Daniel 8 and 9 are intrinsically linked. They cannot be separated. It's the same mareh that Daniel did not understand in chapter 8. It's all the same vision, just broken up into 2 parts because Daniel fainted and fell ill. The angel Gabriel couldn't finish.

So here is the question: If the 70 weeks are cut off the 2300 days, and the 2300 days reached to the time of the end as Daniel 8 says....then....the 2300 days and the 70 weeks must begin at the same time!

Daniel 9:26 tells us that the 70 weeks begins at the command to restore and build Jerusalem. This decree is mentioned in Ezra 7, to restore Jerusalem, and Ezra 9:9 too. This decree went forth in the year 457 B.C.

This means that the 2300 years began in 457 B.C. So count 2300 years from 457 B.C., and well, this is the picture you get:

Just the 70 weeks:

Your interpretation. Not the Bible's Interpretation.

Too many assumptions for one.

[Lysimachus]

Look again Lysimachus. You said Miz3 and Miz3 is not who you quoted.

Are you all right?

My bad miz3, my apologies! Just a slip of the eye. Fixed.

[Lysimachus]

Your interpretation. Not the Bible's Interpretation.

Too many assumptions for one.

Do you have to quote the whole thing? Can't you edit out the whole quote? You're cluttering too much.

[miz3]

Thanks, Richard. Very good to see you, too. Merry Christmas!

I go in to the hospital Dec. 28 and will be there for about 4-5 days. Am having a cancerous tumor removed from a kidney. Doctor says it is quite small so it hasn't spread at all.

I will be praying. Hope all goes perfectly without any negative after stuff.

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

...So He's been gardening all these years ? you guys are too much fun :-)

You're not listening or comprehending what's being said. No one said that God has been gardening all these years.

'

Well, you are talking about a literal tree, so, where was it ?