doug yowell Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 If every zygote is a human being, why don't we find in scripture anyone being convicted of murder for causing an abortion/miscarriage? Ex.21:22,23 gives very clear instructions that if someone ACCIDENTLY causes a miscarriage or even a misfunction they are legally liable for the consequences.Notice that even if "no harm follows" the perpetrator is legally obligated to pay a fine.The fact that Scripture doesn't record any actual cases of this doesn't mean that they didn't occur or that the law was abrigated.Remember that there is also no record of stoning any incorrigible son, yet we (well, at least some of us)accept the principle that God requires us to honor our mother and father. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Bear in mind that countless zygotes are rejected by nature usually for various abnormalities and are spontaneously aborted. Are these to be considered humans created in the image of God also? This also is true but we should not forget that millions of already born human beings are also aborted for the very same reasons.Yet we don't question their humanity. Accidents,stillborns, disease,spina bifida, (murders),natural disasters are all abnormalities that end human life. All of these tragedies, like spontaneous abortions, cannot be understood or prevented by humanity. We are responsible for what we CAN do to prevent them not responsible to emulate them because they are "natural". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 First, let me state what I understand to be the "image of God." Adam & Eve who were said to be created in the image of God were adult, thinking, free moral agents. They were able to create. I like what EGW said in this regard: "Every human being, created in the image of God, is endowed with a power akin to that of the Creator-- individuality, power to think and to do." Ed p.18. So whatever power "to think & to do" in a zygote are only potentially present. I don't know if you're willing to apply this definition across the board? I doubt whether you would be willing to limit God's image to only these attributes, would you? Adam and Eve were totally unique in their creation. They were created fully mature physically and mentally (not sure about spiritually,what do you think?). Even Jesus did not travel that road.A two day born child is neither adult, thinking, or a free moral agent,true? An accident victim in a coma is also missing a couple of essentials as is the alzheimer's victim.In the Christian life the evidence of growth is the evidence of life and is considered by God to be the image of God (Godliness)long before perfection/full maturity is reached.I am also reminded of Mrs. White's quote regarding the effect of improper care of the pregnant mother on her unborn children.She uses the word murder and applies it to those a long way from the power to think and do as used above (perhaps someone else will supply the quote, I'm developing typer's exhaustion). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Much can be said about abortion.... and it often is.... usually by males. I am not a supporter of abortion, except in rare rare... well WHAT I AM a supporter of, is the people trying to stop them, to make a way of escape for the often younger girl to have the baby, that includes the expenses,living, baby clothes, diapers, emotional and friendship support, perhaps an adoption proccess, and helping her through it. Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted January 10, 2012 Author Share Posted January 10, 2012 Woody wrote: “I find that private things are best left private.” Would you extend this policy to stealing, rape, and sexual abuse of children done in a private setting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted January 10, 2012 Author Share Posted January 10, 2012 Gerry Cabalo wrote: “Most people probably agree that life begins at conception. However, are not the sperm & the ovum also living things before they come together? Are these half humans?” Whose identiy do those sperms and ova have? Their own or the DNA or the man or woman they belong to? Does the sperm or the ovum posess the ability to develop and become a human being if left alone prior to fertilization? “Bear in mind that countless zygotes are rejected by nature usually for various abnormalities and are spontaneously aborted.” We all know that Nature does kill through tornadoes, tsunamis, and earthquakes. Does it follow that we have the moral right to imitate Nature? “I think we can also all agree that we are dealing with a very difficult issue, and that it is no surprise that there are differences of opinion.” Stealing, rape, the use of dangerous drugs, are also difficult issues for some people and we have different opinions on them; does it follow that the government should disband its police force and let every man follow its personal moral rules? And bear in mind that a stolen car can be replaced, but a stolen life is an irreversible act. The killing of an unborn child is final. The victim has no hope of compensation. “This should also make us all humble and not try to impose personal opinions on others in the absence of clear scriptural instruction.” The church has no power to impose its views on others, but it has the duty to warn sinners about the coming Day of Judgment and to invite sinners to repent. The government, on the other hand, has the responsibility to protect the life of all human beings under its jurisdiction. “First, let me state what I understand to be the "image of God." Adam & Eve who were said to be created in the image of God were adult, thinking, free moral agents. They were able to create. I like what EGW said in this regard: "Every human being, created in the image of God, is endowed with a power akin to that of the Creator-- individuality, power to think and to do." Ed p.18. So whatever power "to think & to do" in a zygote are only potentially present.” If the image of God is simply the power to think and to do, then Hitler, Stalin, Idi Amin, and many similar despots must have had the Image of God to a large degree. They had a high IQ. Is IQ the image of God, or is it rather the ability and willingness to develop a character similar to that of God. A high IQ without the character of God is not the Image of God, but rather the Image of the Devil! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. T. Cross Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 However, are not the sperm & the ovum also living things before they come together? Are these half humans? That clarifies what I have been saying for years!!! Sperms are CREEPY! Out of me little fishies OUT!!! Seriously they are just spooky to me LOLOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miz3 Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Much can be said about abortion.... and it often is.... usually by males. I am not a supporter of abortion, except in rare rare... well WHAT I AM a supporter of, is the people trying to stop them, to make a way of escape for the often younger girl to have the baby, that includes the expenses,living, baby clothes, diapers, emotional and friendship support, perhaps an adoption proccess, and helping her through it. It is vital for the Church and the woman's family to rally around the women to help those with pregnancies that are/were foisted on women via "rape/incest"/"gross immaturity. I would also include prenatal medical care and continued support as the baby grows into a child in your list also. It is also vital for a young woman's family and the Church to do everything possible to prevent such pregnancies, however having occurred then we must rally to support the pregnant woman. It is also important to hold "young men" responsible for their part as well in a loving supportive way that helps them grow into the maturity needed to meet his "fatherly" responsibilities. This should include but limited to advice, monetary support, education, getting a job, spiritual support, marriage counsel, etc. If society says "no abortions" then the "local society" needs to be prepared to meet its responsibilities to: 1. Prevention of "unwanted pregnancies" within God's framework of male/female relationships. 2. In the event of an "unwanted pregnancy to support the innocent/immature and punish severely the guilty within the Law (rape/incest). God expects nothing less of us. If we fail in such Godly expectations then we will held as guilty as those who committed the sin in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted January 11, 2012 Moderators Share Posted January 11, 2012 Whose identiy do those sperms and ova have? Their own or the DNA or the man or woman they belong to? Does the sperm or the ovum posess the ability to develop and become a human being if left alone prior to fertilization? Left ALONE, neither can a zygote survive on its own. Quote: We all know that Nature does kill through tornadoes, tsunamis, and earthquakes. Does it follow that we have the moral right to imitate Nature? Apples & oranges comparison! Do tornadoes, earthquakes, & tsunamis make any distinction between the good & the bad? The normal from the abnormal? Unless something is wrong with the uterus, the womb will not spontaneously abort a normal fetus. Quote: Stealing, rape, the use of dangerous drugs, are also difficult issues for some people and we have different opinions on them; does it follow that the government should disband its police force and let every man follow its personal moral rules? And bear in mind that a stolen car can be replaced, but a stolen life is an irreversible act. The killing of an unborn child is final. The victim has no hope of compensation. There is nothing difficult or equivocal about stealing or rape. They are clearly wrong not only Biblically but societal mores prohibits them as well. There are laws against certain dangerous drugs. And the Bible is fairly clear about not destroying the temple of the HS. Bogus comparison. Quote: The church has no power to impose its views on others, but it has the duty to warn sinners about the coming Day of Judgment and to invite sinners to repent. The government, on the other hand, has the responsibility to protect the life of all human beings under its jurisdiction. But this is the disagreement that I am talking about. Not all agree that a fertilized egg IS a human being. I've never heard of anyone selling eggs who would say he is selling chickens. And I would like to Scriptural support for the idea that a fertilized egg IS a human being. Quote: If the image of God is simply the power to think and to do, then Hitler, Stalin, Idi Amin, and many similar despots must have had the Image of God to a large degree. They had a high IQ. Is IQ the image of God, or is it rather the ability and willingness to develop a character similar to that of God. A high IQ without the character of God is not the Image of God, but rather the Image of the Devil! I would certainly agree that the character of God would be part of that image. Does a zygote have "the ability and willingness to develop a character similar to that of God?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Much can be said about abortion.... and it often is.... usually by males. I am not a supporter of abortion, except in rare rare... well WHAT I AM a supporter of, is the people trying to stop them, to make a way of escape for the often younger girl to have the baby, that includes the expenses,living, baby clothes, diapers, emotional and friendship support, perhaps an adoption proccess, and helping her through it. This is exactly the type of support that Crisis Pregnancy Centers (none SDA by the way)offer to every woman in an unwanted pregnancy.While agencies like Planned Parenthood receive hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars to promote elective abortion, CPC's are supported only by freewill gifts and offerings from anyone who cares about not only stopping abortion but also ministering to all it's victims. Yet, there are more CPC's in America than abortion clinics, silently doing what their critics say they should be doing but aren't.CPC's are almost all staffed by volunteers,mostly married women,many who have experienced abortion first hand, who give of their time, emotion, and spirit. I've never heard any of them complain about the vocal,moral, or financial support that pro-life men offer them. The pro-choice community offers no such "choice" to those considering aborting their unwanted babies. SDA's for all their resources and rhetoric offer nothing to these women.I'd be really pumped if the church was to fund just one support ministry for our own SDA women in crisis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 It is vital for the Church and the woman's family to rally around the women to help those with pregnancies that are/were foisted on women via "rape/incest"/"gross immaturity. I would also include prenatal medical care and continued support as the baby grows into a child in your list also. It is also vital for a young woman's family and the Church to do everything possible to prevent such pregnancies, however having occurred then we must rally to support the pregnant woman. It is also important to hold "young men" responsible for their part as well in a loving supportive way that helps them grow into the maturity needed to meet his "fatherly" responsibilities. This should include but limited to advice, monetary support, education, getting a job, spiritual support, marriage counsel, etc. If society says "no abortions" then the "local society" needs to be prepared to meet its responsibilities to: 1. Prevention of "unwanted pregnancies" within God's framework of male/female relationships. 2. In the event of an "unwanted pregnancy to support the innocent/immature and punish severely the guilty within the Law (rape/incest). God expects nothing less of us. If we fail in such Godly expectations then we will held as guilty as those who committed the sin in the first place. Good advice,miz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Left ALONE, neither can a zygote survive on its own. Nor can a newborn or a two year old.Isn't that why attachment to it's mother is critical to both? Is survivability on it's own critical to it's humanity or value? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 [/quote=Gerry Cabalo] Left ALONE, neither can a zygote survive on its own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Apples & oranges comparison! Do tornadoes, earthquakes, & tsunamis make any distinction between the good & the bad? The normal from the abnormal? Unless something is wrong with the uterus, the womb will not spontaneously abort a normal fetus. Perhaps nature also reacts to something wrong when exploding in the earthquake,tornado or tsunami.But at least the body reacts to it's own built in warning system. What spontaneous warnings do we have from the zygote that would require our intervention? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 But this is the disagreement that I am talking about. Not all agree that a fertilized egg IS a human being. I've never heard of anyone selling eggs who would say he is selling chickens. Again I ask, why does anyone want to buy a fertilized egg? Common sense tells us that there is a chicken inside,doesn't it? Doesn't everyone who sells eggs make a point to tell others if it is fertilized or not? What is the fertilized zygote before it evolves into being human? If you went to the local chicken hatchery and stole all the eggs under their hot light would you use the same argument if they complained that you've killed all their chickens? Would you tell them "Those weren't chickens, those were eggs"? Is a dead sparrow (or chicken) worth more to God than a human "zygote"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 That clarifies what I have been saying for years!!! Sperms are CREEPY! Out of me little fishies OUT!!! Be careful for what you wish,EC,they get even scarier when they get out,hide inside an egg, and emerge about 15 years later!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 And the Bible is fairly clear about not destroying the temple of the HS. Bogus comparison. But the developing baby within that temple is open season? No responsibility for the other distinctive temple under construction? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. T. Cross Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Originally Posted By: EmptyCross That clarifies what I have been saying for years!!! Sperms are CREEPY! Out of me little fishies OUT!!! Be careful for what you wish,EC,they get even scarier when they get out,hide inside an egg, and emerge about 15 years later!! Yeah that is scary too, I have 4 kids so I know how that turns out. I guess its just better if I don't think about it.LOLOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 And I would like to Scriptural support for the idea that a fertilized egg IS a human being. Are you also willing to require Scriptural support for your belief that it is not? What about the numerous references already mentioned where God speaks of knowing us in the womb? Or how do you understand the response of an unborn John the Baptist (3 months to go till birth)to the presence of a newly implanted (zygote?)Jesus in Luke's account (Luke 1:35-44)of the incarnation? What about God's instruction to Manoah to forbid even Samson's mother from drinking alcohol while she was pregnant? Or Ellen White's warning that husbands should baby their pregnant wives or be responsible for murdering her children? (Yeah I know,not Scripture but you get my point?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Yeah that is scary too, I have 4 kids so I know how that turns out. I guess its just better if I don't think about it.LOLOL Yeah, if you can do that for about 20 or 25 more years I think you'll survive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 If the image of God is simply the power to think and to do, then Hitler, Stalin, Idi Amin, and many similar despots must have had the Image of God to a large degree. They had a high IQ. Is IQ the image of God, or is it rather the ability and willingness to develop a character similar to that of God. A high IQ without the character of God is not the Image of God, but rather the Image of the Devil! "Whoever shed's man's blood,By man his blood shall be shed;For in the image of God He made man." Does this mean that we are freed to murder all those who have not the ability,or willingness to attain to nor have attained to the character of God, because they are not in the image of God? God's definition of that image is far less complicated when dealing with one another.Being human is suffcient. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Does a zygote have "the ability and willingness to develop a character similar to that of God?"Not that we know of, but then neither does a 4 day old newborn. Of course John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother's womb so maybe there's more to it then meets the eye. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted January 11, 2012 Moderators Share Posted January 11, 2012 Are you also willing to require Scriptural support for your belief that it is not? That's exactly my point! I can't give you a clear, "Thus says the Lord." And neither can you! That's why we cannot be dogmatic about this things. And that's why while I am generally anti-abortion, I do have my exceptions. Quote: What about the numerous references already mentioned where God speaks of knowing us in the womb? Or how do you understand the response of an unborn John the Baptist (3 months to go till birth)to the presence of a newly implanted (zygote?)Jesus in Luke's account (Luke 1:35-44)of the incarnation? What about God's instruction to Manoah to forbid even Samson's mother from drinking alcohol while she was pregnant? Or Ellen White's warning that husbands should baby their pregnant wives or be responsible for murdering her children? (Yeah I know,not Scripture but you get my point?) A 6 mo old fetus has a well-established heartbeat and a functioning nervous system that can feel. And those instructions for the mother affect the development of the fetus. As you can see, in spite of the prohibitions, Samson still had unholy passions which could have been even worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted January 11, 2012 Moderators Share Posted January 11, 2012 "Whoever shed's man's blood,By man his blood shall be shed;For in the image of God He made man." Does this mean that we are freed to murder all those who have not the ability,or willingness to attain to nor have attained to the character of God, because they are not in the image of God? God's definition of that image is far less complicated when dealing with one another.Being human is suffcient. Is it not commanded in the Bible that those who deface the image of God (shed man's blood) be destroyed? Is not an unwanted sperm part of the instrument by which the image of God in the victim is defaced especially in an unwed teenager? I fail to see how an unwed young girl could possibly benefit by carrying an unwanted pregnancy that is the result of a forced entry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted January 11, 2012 Moderators Share Posted January 11, 2012 Again I ask, why does anyone want to buy a fertilized egg? Common sense tells us that there is a chicken inside,doesn't it? Doesn't everyone who sells eggs make a point to tell others if it is fertilized or not? What is the fertilized zygote before it evolves into being human? If you went to the local chicken hatchery and stole all the eggs under their hot light would you use the same argument if they complained that you've killed all their chickens? Would you tell them "Those weren't chickens, those were eggs"? Is a dead sparrow (or chicken) worth more to God than a human "zygote"? You obviously have never heard of "balut", Doug, or have you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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