Guest Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Here's an object lesson: When the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great, but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed. Is this man truly a genius? An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had never failed a single student before, but had recently failed an entire class. That class had insisted that Obama's socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer. The professor then said, "OK, we will have an experiment in this class on Obama's plan".. All grades will be averaged and everyone will receive the same grade so no one will fail and no one will receive an A.... (substituting grades for dollars - something closer to home and more readily understood by all). After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy. As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too so they studied little. The second test average was a D! No one was happy. When the 3rd test rolled around, the average was an F. As the tests proceeded, the scores never increased as bickering, blame and name-calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of anyone else. To their great surprise, ALL FAILED and the professor told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great, but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed. Could not be any simpler than that. These are possibly the 5 best sentences you'll ever read and all applicable to this experiment: 1. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. 2. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. 3. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. 4. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it! 5. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work and sit around protesting because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is the beginning of the end of any nation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted January 9, 2012 Moderators Share Posted January 9, 2012 Did the experiment really happen? I'd love to see some evidence: because education is my field, and there is a lot of evidence that grades are not a particularly effective motivator, and students work very hard and submit excellent work in pass/fail courses where there is no grade 'reward'. Is this evidence or an ideological parable? Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 You may call it whatever you like. So education is your field. Does that mean that you educate people in economics? Or does it mean that because education is "Your Field" that you are able to tell what can or cannot happen in any given economics classroom at any given time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted January 9, 2012 Moderators Share Posted January 9, 2012 Educational research, in particular, is my field, with classroom-based research as a strong focus over many years. I have also read many studies and meta-analyses. No, I can't rule out that it happened in this particular classroom (assuming it did: still no evidence on that), but one classroom makes anecdotal evidence, not research, because there are a million variables not controlled for. There's not even a control group. A huge number of factors could have confounded the result, and the fact that the prof set out to prove something is the most obvious one. I have no problem with this as a story. It's a nice way to illustrate certain ideological assumptions. My concern was simply that it not be held up as 'research' or 'evidence' or 'proof' of those principles. It's not. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted January 9, 2012 Moderators Share Posted January 9, 2012 (leaving aside that it's nonsense to suggest Obama has ever supported the notion of equal economic outcomes, only equal economic oppportunities) Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted January 9, 2012 Administrators Share Posted January 9, 2012 not to mention that this urban legend has been in circulation since before Obama was in public life... Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Hey, it's a true principal, you can't kill it. You can call it anything you want. Of course I don't expect anybody who subscribes to the Paul Krugman point of view to see any wisdom in it. I'm saying the principal is true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 (leaving aside that it's nonsense to suggest Obama has ever supported the notion of equal economic outcomes, only equal economic oppportunities) What is equal economic opportunities to you? Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Originally Posted By: Bravus (leaving aside that it's nonsense to suggest Obama has ever supported the notion of equal economic outcomes, only equal economic oppportunities) What is equal economic opportunities to you? This I would like to hear... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Hey Bonnie, I'm still waiting for Bravus to answer your question. In fact I hurried home from work to see what the answer was. Imagine my surprise. Nothing! Not yet anyway...maybe he's still working on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (leaving aside that it's nonsense to suggest Obama has ever supported the notion of equal economic outcomes, only equal economic opportunities) I am not even sure that Obama favors equal economic opportunities. The paranoia against socialism really is overblown. A little bit of socialism is good for us. Maybe even more than a little bit. I like the idea of a minimum wage. The concept of worker's compensation has really grown on me. One of my personal favorite socialistic concepts is public education. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted January 10, 2012 Moderators Share Posted January 10, 2012 Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I am not even sure that Obama favors equal economic opportunities. The paranoia against socialism really is overblown. A little bit of socialism is good for us. Maybe even more than a little bit. I like the idea of a minimum wage. The concept of worker's compensation has really grown on me. One of my personal favorite socialistic concepts is public education. How much socialism would you advise Obama to put into law? Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 This is what you said...... leaving aside that it's nonsense to suggest Obama has ever supported the notion of equal economic outcomes, only equal economic opportunities) Can you explain what equal economic opportunity Obama supports Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted January 11, 2012 Moderators Share Posted January 11, 2012 Nope, not even going to bother. Why do I want to put in a lot of time trying to explain it to people who are just going to respond with 'blah blah blah does not make wisdom'? Inform yourselves, or don't, I have neither the time nor the inclination. What I said is true, but there's no point putting time into telling the truth to those who are bound and determined in a different direction. (feel free to consider that you have 'won' the discussion, whatever that means) Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Nope, not even going to bother. Why do I want to put in a lot of time trying to explain it to people who are just going to respond with 'blah blah blah does not make wisdom'? Inform yourselves, or don't, I have neither the time nor the inclination. What I said is true, but there's no point putting time into telling the truth to those who are bound and determined in a different direction. (feel free to consider that you have 'won' the discussion, whatever that means) People don't respond favorably or agree so relieves you of any explanation .Handy out Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 BTW,it was a legitimate,sincere question.These terms are thrown around without explanation. It was not an attempt to insult you or bring you down to a lower level.But thank you for your answer,it was informative Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 How much socialism would you advise Obama to put into law? Well, we are lacking in public transportation in many areas. This is another area where Obama has shown himself a failure. He wanted to build a lot of high-speed rail and extend Amtrak lines and even with a super majority in Congress, he failed to do that. Another great disappointment is Obama's failure to get a single-payer health-care system in place and instead he passed a terrible plan based on the conservative Heritage Foundation's proposal. For the most part, we have a lot of very good socialistic programs in the US. I am a bit torn about CEO salaries. I am inclined to learn toward topping a CEO salary at 1,000 times the salary of the lowest paid employee. That would basically mean that a company with the lowest paid worker earning $10/hour would be able to pay its CEO $2million/year. Any stock options, profit sharing, etc. given to the CEO would also need to be given to all employees at a degraduated scale. I am not completely convinced of that yet. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Why do I want to put in a lot of time trying to explain it to people who are just going to respond with 'blah blah blah does not make wisdom'? Inform yourselves, or don't, I have neither the time nor the inclination. That is a happy hug. Nothing gay about it. OK, if that makes anyone feel uncomfortable. Here is a manly gesture Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Inform yourselves, or don't, I have neither the time nor the inclination. Sounds like we've just been spared from having you explain to us the ins and outs of how our political system works here in America. Or why conservatism isn't better than Socialism, etc. etc. So let me just give a heart felt...WHEW!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 So let me just give a heart felt...WHEW!!! Do you need a big hug too? Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Well, we are lacking in public transportation in many areas. This is another area where Obama has shown himself a failure. He wanted to build a lot of high-speed rail and extend Amtrak lines and even with a super majority in Congress, he failed to do that. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Originally Posted By: Shane I am a bit torn about CEO salaries. I am inclined to learn toward topping a CEO salary at 1,000 times the salary of the lowest paid employee. Great idea,let's put a cap on what others earn.That is somehow going to elevate you. Capping what CEOs can be paid isn't quite the same as capping what individuals can earn. The cap can be dealt with in the tax code dealing with corporations. Individuals could still make investments and earn millions of dollars in capital gains with no cap. CEOs would just be limited in how much they earn (in capital gains or otherwise) from the company they work for. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Capping what CEOs can be paid isn't quite the same as capping what individuals can earn. The cap can be dealt with in the tax code dealing with corporations. Individuals could still make investments and earn millions of dollars in capital gains with no cap. CEOs would just be limited in how much they earn (in capital gains or otherwise) from the company they work for. It is your business how what a private company pays their CEO's? Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 It is your business how what a private company pays their CEO's? I am talking about public companies that sell their stock on the market. Certainly a private owner of a company that does not have public stock should not have any limit placed on his or her salary. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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