Military recruiters in our Schools

[Stan]

This seems to be happening more and more around the world.

I personally believe, and this is my own position, that our Schools should be equipping our kids to become Citizens of Heaven.

New International Version (©1984)

But our citizenship is in heaven.

http://bible.cc/philippians/3-20.htm

Everyone, should be recruited to join the Lord's Army.

[phkrause]

Interesting, hadn't heard that.

[Naomi]

Hummmmmmmmm ... that is interesting. Especially since it is my understanding that the Recruiers must have authorization before they can go into a school, or other establishment, to recruit.

Of course, I could be wrong ....

[Kevin H]

Stan: I am someone who started out with your view, but who ended up spending his life in the military. I went to our colleges, studied religion, planned on being an academy or college Bible teacher. Graduated in the early 1980s where I was one of only 3 people having a job waiting for me at graduation(actually I was the only one from my graduating class, of the other two, both of them had previous college degrees and one had put in his 20 years with the military, retired and was studying for the ministry and had a conference promise him a job when he graduated the next year, the third had an accounting degree was given the job right away, dropped out of the BA program and was sent right to the Seminary.) My job after graduation was in Israel, and sadly because of the Lebanon war went out of business. There was a lot of job hunting for me. The others from my class either eventually joined the military or became prison guards, or had their parents make their student loan payments while they would work for room board and $25.00 a week for a few years and eventually after a few years were picked up by the church. Not being in a position to have my family pay my loans, I eventually broke down and joined the Army, then eventually Air Force Reserves. I believe that God used life cercumstances to force me into the military. I would not have joined otherwise. I prase God that he did.

I wish I had gone Air Force at the start and I wish I had not made a mistake of going to Loma Linda for nursing with hopes of returning to active duty and using nursing to help support getting a doctorate and family only to find that the cost of Loma Linda was a financial disaster and I had to work 2 to 3 jobs since to barely keep my head above water, and therefore had to use the reserves as one of my part time jobs to supplement the full time job. While attending Loma Linda on student loans was the worst mistake of my life, joining the military was one of the best choices of my life.

I love what I learned about life skills as a psych tech/psych nurse in the Air Force, as well as learning about health care in general. I just completed a 3 day training in Emergency Pediatric Care, intence but fantastic. I LOVE my ministry in working with the aeromedical evacuation system, especially my 2 deployments of helping the wounded out of the war zone in Desert Storm and helping them to go home from Iraq. And even when not deployed, I still love helping to get these wounded troops back to their families even if it is a couple days or weeks here and there. While I feel my skills do a better job in the preparing the patients for flight, I did love my 3 years as a flight nurse and feel an incredable sence of pride in the flight nurse wings that I earned with it's star for a minimum of 3 years flying. I love the travel that I've been able to do with the military.

However, I wish that I would have joined the Air Force Reserves right out of Academy and used this through college, then put in active duty and today be either retired or close to retired and ready for civilian work.

I wish that I had followed the footsteps of that other student I went to college with who first had put in 20 years of the military and had his retirement, as well as a business degree he took part time while in the military, then he went back to college for the Theology degree and entered the ministry. Also, I met this other lady who was a church school teacher. After Academy she joined the military, became a drill sergeant and had several years as a drill sergeant, got her teaching degree and upon her military retirement became one of our church school teachers having a successful career, her church school teaching pay was supplemented with her military retirement, plus she brought to her job the years of being a military drill sergeant (no she was not drill sergeantly to the kids, but was a skilled educator and skilled on helping kids who would have been disruptive to others to help these kids become successful students.)

The military gives fantastic training. I encourage more the medical field due to the Sabbath; medic, psych tech, nurse, doctor etc. And I am worried about the future as the US continues it's change from a republic into the headquarters of the global state since if the crisis was to break out it is not as easy to leave the military as it is to leave a civalian job, but I have ended up becoming a strong supporter for military expirence to help prepare us for life in general, and how for our teachers, pastors etc. how having first had the military career then having the military retirement to supplement the teaching and pastoral income would be invaluble. Even if someone does not want the military career, the reserves is a good part time job for college, and even a reserve career, keeps you busy but gives you a nice secondary income to support your income and eventual retirement.

Oh, let me wake up and find myself back in Academy. Instead of graduating and moving right into college I'd first want to spend a year in say BOCIES or other trade program, and/or joined the Air Force Reserves as a psych tech. then use that while going to AUC, and to lay a financial foudation for life and have a trade to support my career. Then in college, I'd take either a Religion minor, or double major with something to prepare for a military career, put in at least 20 years, then go for my cililian career, for me some sort of teaching, either an academy teacher in one of our schools, or teaching health and a life skills class in a public school, or even putting together a magic program and going around to schools, churches, maybe even jails and acute care psych units in the north east giving the kids, youth and young adults not only a nice magic show but also bringing about education on things that could help them make better choices in life, relationship skills, anger management etc.

Stan, I think I could have written the above clearer and have tried to edit it some to make it easier to read, but I hope this helps to show how I made an about face from agreeing with you completely to the openess I have for the recruters on our schools.

[Dr. Shane]

We certainly should not allow military recruiters in our school unless we must in order to comply with the law. I served in the Army and the military is no place for a Christian unless they are serving as a chaplain.

[Kevin H]

While I agree with you to a point Shane, I would expand beyond the Chaplancy to the medical work as well, and I would encourage as many as possible to do it. If I could live my life over I'd still go in but I'd not go in kicking and screaming thinking that it was no place for a Christian as I did when life circumstances forced me in. I prase God that he arranged life that I had no other choice but to join. While I could have done better with my choice, it is one of the best choices I ever made in my life.

Now I am not sure of your age and the years that you served, but there was a time where drugs were high, pressure to joing in drinking, and a lot of problems, but over the past few years they have come down very strong on drugs, and now are more accepting of those choosing not to drink, there are schools for the children that are more conservative, less drugs and not much chance to get involved in gang activities (as they move so much and in an isolated world). Fantasitc continuing education, which I find increadably helpful as a nurse. And again I see it as a ministry to help care for the wounded and to help them get back home.

A few years in the military can help with skills to help be more successful in college and your jobs, and a military career and retirement makes a wonderful foundation and financial supplement to be able to have a career as a pastor or teacher in our schools, or a medical missionary, to support yourself as you work as a caulporter on the side, and to be abe to afford to do your ministry. And you get a lot of chance to minister to your buddies. Some of my friends from Basic Training gave their lives to Jesus. Several of my friends from tech school would come with me to church, one after tech school went to his duty location where his roomate was a Seventh-day Adventist medic and he ended up joining our church.

Yes, I encourage the Chaplancy or health care, and keep an eye open on world events, but go for it.

[CoAspen]

[Stan]

appreciate all the work you did into making that post Kevin.I do like diverse of opinion on matters like this.

How would you feel about out schools or students in other countries doing such?

Or combat roles?

Thanks to everyone to keep this civil.

[Stan]

I too, have talk with people who are as pleased with their decision as Kevin is.

[Kevin H]

As I said, I don't know how comfortable I feel about all the roles in the military, as well as there being different jobs that would have interested me but knew that I could not do on Sabbath. But there is a large role in the healthcare field.

[ClubV12]

What does Sister White have to say on the subject?

The only position I can find opposes military service in every form.

[Kevin H]

What does Sister White have to say on the subject?

The only position I can find opposes military service in every form.

As I understand it, she does a lot of complaining about how the Civil war was too hippocritical, but apperently was impressed by John Brown's raid, She praises Sweden for sending troops to help with the reformation, and speaks well of, I can't think of the guys name, but the blind general who had a militant defence of the followers of John Hus. Also we did not have the same health care opputunities in the Civil war.

So for my understanding/misunderstanding, there was the criticizism of the hipocracy of a lot of wars, yet not as critical of good purposes, and again there was the medical work that we have not where we are willing to help those who are suffering from the horrors of war.

[ClubV12]

The primary concern, her concern was two fold:

How will you keep the Sabbath? That was her first question. The second point was, when you enlist you surrender your claims to conscience.

I was facing the draft during Vietnam. I figured military service was inevitable, so I enlisted, hoping to have a bit more say over the choice on my military occupation. I quickly learned that since I volunteered I had less rights than those who were drafted!! I had ASKED for this and had NO reason to complain about anything. Of course I wasn't an Adventist then, but looking back, I can see how serious a problem keeping the Sabbath would have been. Impossible! Nor did I get what they "promised" as a military occupation. In the end, they will assign you based on your tested skill level and the needs of the military, your "choice" is somewhere down the list of priorities. In other words, gasp, the military will actually lie to you.

"Noble wars" and heroic deeds worthy of praise do not justify military service.

[Overaged]

Kevin; I for one appreciated your story/testimony here. It does sound like the Lord led you into the army. And now you have a wide range of specialty skills to use in blessing and helping others. What better way is there to witness than to tend to medical needs and crises? Yes; the army is a rough place to be; but a star can always shine better in the dark.

I have been friends for many years with a fellow who has been in the Canadian Reserves; and he is currently serving a a medic. It is absolutely amazing how many people he has introduced to Jesus in all of the worlds major hot spots over the last 20 years. If he ever does get shot at by the enemy; I wouldn't be surprised to learn that his life was saved by all those Great Controversies, Desire Of Ages, and Steps To Christ books in his back pack....

Those who say the army is no place for a Christian have a lot of explaining to do. I would like to see their evidence.

I think there is a way that people can be "in the Lord's Army;" even when they are in an earthly army. But I agree with Stan; our schools are not really the best venue for recruiting.

[Dr. Shane]

I was in the Army from 1988 to 1993. There is a lot of swearing, dancing, worldly music, love of pleasure, sexual promiscuity and of course the liquor flows like Las Vegas. The general feeling is much like Vegas. What goes on in Vegas, stays in Vegas and in a similar fashion what goes on in the military the folks back home will never know about. I had already quit drinking when I joined but that made me the prime candidate to be a designated driver. One night the guys went out and had a contest to see who could have sex with the fattest woman. They had to produce the panties the next day as proof. Another time a woman in our platoon pulled a train. What is that? She had sex with multiple partners one after the other. I believe it was eight guys she did that night. Later (on another day) the same girl offered to perform oral sex on me in the janitor closet. I could go on and on with more stories very similar. My experience is very limited but quite typical. I am a member of the American Legion and on any evening can strike up conversations with other veterans that have had similar experiences. The military is no place for a Christian unless he or she is going into enemy territory with the explicit purpose of ministry.

Sex Runs Wild in U.S. Military

Quote:

But commanders seem to acknowledge that sex happens in the forward operating bases: Base exchanges sell trashy lingerie, medics hand out condoms and, in some places, have a supply of pregnancy test kits available.

"We don't really have any other choice than to go to each other," said a male soldier in the 872nd Maintenance Company headquartered in Mosul.

"In past wars, they could go into town and there would be girls there or boys or whatever you want. Here, you can't really leave the base because you'll get killed."

Most male soldiers are not regularly having sex, despite some bragging to the contrary, the Tribune reports.

But they estimate that anywhere from a quarter to three-quarters of female soldiers are engaging in sex while on deployment.

Some female soldiers say that estimate is probably low.

"If you include all the girls who are having sex with girls, it’s much closer to every one of us,” said a female soldier in the 146th.

Sex Trafficking High Around U.S. Military Bases Abroad

Quote:

sex trafficking flourishes near U.S. military bases. Should U.S. soldiers be abusing people in another country while protecting people in this one?

Of all the countries where an American military presence attracts prostitution, both voluntary and forced, South Korea may feel the effects most acutely.

One of my friends that served in Korea told me the prostitutes would come into the barber shops and perform oral sex on the troops while they were getting a hair cut.

Certainly not the environment for a young person seeking to grow in their relationship with Christ and waiting for His soon return.

[ClubV12]

"Those who say the army is no place for a Christian have a lot of explaining to do. I would like to see their evidence."

With all due respect and sincerely Overaged, that is an issue you will have to resolve with Ellen White. Her counsel is clear, there is not a single implication in her work that even hints that Adventists should enlist. The issues have to do with conscientous objector status, Sabbath keeping and other matters of conscience when you are drafted or forced into military service. As an enlistee, you have no rights to any of these moral questions. A medic will receive rifle training, be issued a rifle and be expected to use it in a time of war, with no questions asked and no consideration to religion given.

[Overaged]

One of my friends that served in Korea told me the prostitutes would come into the barber shops and perform oral sex on the troops while they were getting a hair cut.

Well; these kinds of stories are usually pretty tall tales. I hope you don't believe everything your friends tell you of this nature.

But even with what you have said that is true; those kinds of things are not needed to "show" us how bad the military is. It doesn't have to be like that; especially for Christians. The story of my friend I mentioned above is LIVING PROOF.

[Dr. Shane]

Well; these kinds of stories are usually pretty tall tales.

[Overaged]

"Those who say the army is no place for a Christian have a lot of explaining to do. I would like to see their evidence."

With all due respect and sincerely Overaged, that is an issue you will have to resolve with Ellen White. Her counsel is clear, there is not a single implication in her work that even hints that Adventists should enlist.

Does she actually say not to be in the army? If so; I would be interested to see where.

[Woody]

Quote:

The story is consistent with my own experience. If I start talking about what went on when I was in Panama I may get banned from the forum.

Go Ahead Shane. It's just you and me. I won't tell anyone else.

[Overaged]

I am just thinking that the same things go on at parties here in North America, right in our own back yards. I could tell similar stories about stuff like this right where we live now. So do you see why I am wondering why we should say 'this is no place for Christians?" It doesn't quite make sense to me...

especially in light of what i told you about my friend in the army here

[Dr. Shane]

I also went to college and there is a big difference between what goes on in college dorms and frat houses and the military.

The first big difference is that in college we get to choose our friends. Christians can join groups like Intervarsity Christian Fellowship or Campus Crusade for Christ. In college, a person can easily surround themselves with other God-fearing Christians. In the military, a person serves with whoever they are put with.

The second big difference is the lack of the Vegas environment. With the exception of Spring Break parties, most every student knows that what they do at college will not be tucked away and kept a secret from their family and friends. I never saw any sexual promiscuity while in college that approached the degree I saw in the military. And that is saying a lot because I had friends in low places. I was an active member in a 12-Step recovery group and had sexually promiscuous heterosexual and homosexual friends.

Believe me, I have only touched on the tip of the ice berg with what I saw. And my experience is anecdotal. I was only in for five years and only served with so-many people. Point being that a whole lot more things went on and go on in the military that I never saw.

[CoAspen]

The SDA perspective is rather an interesting one, considering the history of the Bible. We consider our nation to be lead by God or least that is often 'said', but no to War that the nation is involved in, let someone else 'do it'. I was raised that way also and felt the same until I grew up out side of the SDA ghetto...moved away as an adult.

I consider it a personal issue. I do not fault a person who chooses not to for personal reasons, but not selfish ones. I support those who do serve and would not condemn a person for 'sabbath reasons', too often used as an excuse. No, I do not look to EGW for counsel on that issue, she had a right to her views and opinions on the subject, but I do not see them as a mandate from God.

To each their own!!

[Overaged]

college and frat houses stuff are kindergarten picnics compared to what I am talking about. No need for the details; the point being is that one can choose their friends in the army too. My friend has done it for 20 years. I know others that did the same - and I am sure you know Desmond Doss; I mean, God has His people in the army, no matter what we think 'theologically" or 'anecdotally."

[M. T. Cross]

I never saw any sexual promiscuity while in college that approached the degree I saw in the military.

I wonder........ its a bit off topic. I wonder if what goes on in the Army is worse than what went on in Glam Metal bands in the 80's and 90's......