Military recruiters in our Schools

[Dr. Shane]

To each their own!!

I agree with that sentiment but this thread is about allowing recruiters on SDA school campuses. Now that is a horse of a different color.

[Dr. Shane]

the point being is that one can choose their friends in the army too.

I guess that depends on how one defines the word "friends". In the Army I was assigned to a unit and we ate, slept and showered together. I didn't get to choose my unit or the guys I served with.

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

the point being is that one can choose their friends in the army too.

I guess that depends on how one defines the word "friends". In the Army I was assigned to a unit and we ate, slept and showered together. I didn't get to choose my unit or the guys I served with.

But you did get to choose what happened to you when you got your hair cut!!

[Kevin H]

While I spent 3 years in the Army, most of my time was in the Air Force Reserves. Shane, I missed your Army. My basic training was with all men, there was one girl who worked in the mess hall who smiled at me in a special way, and was obviously spoken to about that since she would just be incredibaly professional thereafter. At Advance training was co-ed but the women were not allowed on the men's floor and the men not allowed on the mens floor. Yes, if they wanted to go someplace for weekend pass they were on their own, but you had to look for it. Then at perminant party there were the mens dorms and the women's dorms and they were stricter than the dorms I was in at AUC and Andrews. I've heard stories as well, but first I've seen a few people at AUC and Andrews who were able to find those types of things. I think that it is very much what you look for. Second, that has been far from my expirence from the places I've been. Yes, I hear that Korea or the Phillipines were different, but again you had to be in one of those locations and to look for it.

Now,I was asking what years you were in as at the time you were in there was a lot of sexual assaults and pressure on the women to do uncomfortable acts. Those things were hapening but many women complained and the millitary clamped down. I will agree with what you told, however, my expirence was that you did have to look for these types of things, and that the military has been working on decreasing that actvity.

[ClubV12]

Sister White dealt with two wars in her time, Civil War and WW1. Conscientious objector status was always the primary issue concerning Adventists. In the Civil War some Adventist were executed for refusing to bear arms. Many were put in prison. A very few Adventist did enlist and of those Arthur White notes:

"The men in the Army had volunteered for military service, thus surrendering all claims they might have to positions of conscience." Ellen G. White Biography, Volume 2, pg 46

"Surrendering all claims of conscience" means you give up the right to worship or not work on the Sabbath. You give up the right to be a conscience objector. Refusing to bear arms in a time of war is a capital offense, even if you are a Chaplain or Medic.

It is inconceivable that a Seventh-day Adventist could enlist and serve in the military or in ANY position that demands they surrender their rights to conscience. Under ANY circumstances, WW1 or WW2 were no acception, as the history of this church demonstrates. The only counsel provided is what to do IF you are forced to serve. If you enlist, your on your own, the church can't help you when you face a moral crisis. Once you ARE in the service, James White went so far as to suggest those who would then run from their obligation were cowards! Denying the power of God.

The church split over this issue in WW1. Some said Adventists should refuse to serve even if it meant execution. Which Ellen White called, "suicide" not "martydom". That group left and became "Seventh-day Adventist REFORM church", which still exists today.

[Overaged]

Club; I have started another topic dealing with Adventists & Military Service here.

[phkrause]

Well I was drafted during the Vietnam Conflict, and entered as a concientous(sp) objector, so in that respect Club, I did not have to bear arms to kill anyone. As Kevin is saying we can do a lot of good, by helping our fellow troops in the medical field in the military. Look at Desmond Doss, he even received the medal of honor I believe for what he did for his unit. And to what Shane was saying, I was stationed at Ft Sam Houston for my basic and than my training to be a medic. We would go in to San Antonio and be hit upon at almost every store front with prostitutes. So we do have a choice at that point. And as OA says, we have that everyday in life, where ever we live. Growing up in NYC, I saw this on a daily basis, but even that doesn't prepare you for the peer pressure of your GI bunk mates. I saw many of my friends go down that path. But we will have those same choice's be it in the military or civilian life. As far as friends are concerned, its no different than going to school, your not friends with each person in you class, same in the military, you still get to choose who you will be a friend or not.

[Naomi]

Quote:

I did not have to bear arms to kill anyone. As Kevin is saying we can do a lot of good, by helping our fellow troops in the medical field in the military. Look at Desmond Doss, he even received the medal of honor I believe for what he did for his unit.

It takes a lot of courage to go as a medic and yes, you can do a lot of good.

[ClubV12]

I suppose you had a choice PK, I did, I chose to enlist rather than wait for the inevitable draft. And quickly learned enlisting was a huge mistake, I should have waited for the draft.

Why didn't YOU enlist? Would you have encouraged other Adventists to enlist then? Would you encourage them to enlist today?

Fundamentally the message we are sending our young people in Adventist colleges today by allowing recruitment centers on campus is that it's OK to enlist. That the military is a viable career option. I completely disagree.

Our focus, our work, when correctly understood, is to give the third angels message to a dieing world. Politics, the military, Unions are all distracting and an inconvience to our God given primary work.

Of course we can be overcomers no matter what situation we find ourselves in. We can do a good work no matter where we are. WHY would one CHOOSE to place himself in the midst of great temptation to "prove" he can be an overcomer? Thats some seriously faulty reasoning! What is one BIG reason Sister White counsels us to leave the cities? To get away from the temptations that are so easily accessed in the city! She recognizes that human beings are basically weak and need to distance themselves from temptation when ever, where ever possible. The local "bar" is not a good place for a recovering alcoholic to hang out. As a recovering sinner, I need to remove myself as much as practical from the temptations of this life.

Do you think Desmond Doss would you use his experience to encourage Adventists to enlist in the military? Because, you know, you can do such "good things" by placing yourself in the midst of sin and war?

[Overaged]

Our focus, our work, when correctly understood, is to give the third angels message to a dieing world. Politics, the military, Unions are all distracting and an inconvience to our God given primary work.

[CoAspen]

Yes, he was an individual who put others first before himself, hence the medal.

Now days we have way too much of me first!!

[ClubV12]

A terrific story, Desmond Doss, a hero but more importantly, what a testimony to the power of the Lord to protect and provide.

It makes me a bit uncomfortable using his experience in any way to justify a military career. He was a non-combatant, that isn't an option for those who choose to enlist. The counsel is clear: If you are drafted or forced into military service, you have an obligation to do your duty to God and country.

As to those who have enlisted and had terrific military careers as a result, it sends the wrong message to Adventist youth. I can't find even a hint or suggestion that the Adventist pioneers or Ellen White condoned a military career in any way as it concerns enlisting. Which is of course the topic of this thread, recruiters on our campus'.

The more I study and read the Spirit of Prophecy the more I see how balanced it was. The pioneers showed little if any interest in politics or voting, that was not their mission or calling. And yet, they were heavily involved in the moral aspects of politics. Like prohibition, the fight against Sunday laws and slavery. As it concerns slavery, the counsel was to break the law when necessary to hide, protect and help free slaves. Even if it meant going to jail if you were caught. The counsel on the military is equally balanced, if your drafted do your duty. There is NO counsel that even suggests enlisting.

[Overaged]

A terrific story, Desmond Doss, a hero but more importantly, what a testimony to the power of the Lord to protect and provide.

It makes me a bit uncomfortable using his experience in any way to justify a military career. He was a non-combatant, that isn't an option for those who choose to enlist. The counsel is clear: If you are drafted or forced into military service, you have an obligation to do your duty to God and country.

Did you read the story I posted of my friend here in the Canadian Army? He has been to all the worlds hotspots over the last five years, as a medic, and has not fired a single shot. Go back & read what else I said about him in an earlier post here, and let me know what you think.

[Stan]

The Feature Film about Doss is well underway...

Details here

http://www.make-believeentertainment.com/producer.html

Director Here

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0773689/

[Naomi]

Yes, he was an individual who put others first before himself, hence the medal.

Now days we have way too much of me first!!

Yes!!! To many suffer from ABM

[Overaged]

"ABM" Syndrome. Thats a new one for me. never heard this one before. I find I am always learning something new from you Naomi!

Now, my next question would be; "what kind of pill do we take for this syndrome?"

I got a hunch this movie Stan mentioned will tell us more!

[phkrause]

I suppose you had a choice PK, I did, I chose to enlist rather than wait for the inevitable draft. And quickly learned enlisting was a huge mistake, I should have waited for the draft.

Why didn't YOU enlist? Would you have encouraged other Adventists to enlist then? Would you encourage them to enlist today?

Fundamentally the message we are sending our young people in Adventist colleges today by allowing recruitment centers on campus is that it's OK to enlist. That the military is a viable career option. I completely disagree.

Our focus, our work, when correctly understood, is to give the third angels message to a dieing world. Politics, the military, Unions are all distracting and an inconvience to our God given primary work.

Of course we can be overcomers no matter what situation we find ourselves in. We can do a good work no matter where we are. WHY would one CHOOSE to place himself in the midst of great temptation to "prove" he can be an overcomer? Thats some seriously faulty reasoning! What is one BIG reason Sister White counsels us to leave the cities? To get away from the temptations that are so easily accessed in the city! She recognizes that human beings are basically weak and need to distance themselves from temptation when ever, where ever possible. The local "bar" is not a good place for a recovering alcoholic to hang out. As a recovering sinner, I need to remove myself as much as practical from the temptations of this life.

Do you think Desmond Doss would you use his experience to encourage Adventists to enlist in the military? Because, you know, you can do such "good things" by placing yourself in the midst of sin and war?

I do recall Club that during that time they were actually allowing many to join as COs so that they didn't have to bear arms. As far as DD, I believe that he probably wouldn't counsel anyone to join. But would joining the military be any different than wanting to be a police officer or a fireman? We can be examples and spread the 3 Angels message in whatever we choose to do.

[Naomi]

"ABM" Syndrome. Thats a new one for me. never heard this one before. I find I am always learning something new from you Naomi!

Now, my next question would be; "what kind of pill do we take for this syndrome?"

OA "ABM" Syndrome is "All About Me" there is no pill that I know of that will help the infected person, but a large piece of "humble pie" usually will at least slow the syndrome's progress.

[Naomi]

Quote:

But would joining the military be any different than wanting to be a police officer or a fireman?

PKrause, no difference that I know of ...

Quote:

We can be examples and spread the 3 Angels message in whatever we choose to do.

Amen & Amen

[Overaged]

[ClubV12]

I think there is a HUGE difference in being a police or fireman and being in the Army. Primarily, if the issue of violating your conscience comes up, you can quit, or sue, or make some kind of adjustment as a police or fireman. In the military, if you enlisted, you cannot. If your ordered to work on the Sabbath, thats what you will do, no if's, and's or but's. As a draftee you will have more options but it's still a problem.

What kind of work on the Sabbath? Well that is up to the individual, it would be wrong to say all kinds of work is "OK" just because your a police, fire or military man. This was the fundamental problem the church had/has with military service in the first place.

In my career I dealt with life, safty and security issues on many different occasions over the years. All though I was not an Adventist, looking back, I would not have a problem being on call during the Sabbath for these issues where life, safty, security were at stake. But there were times when we had to work seven days a week to complete a project on schedule. As an Adventist I couldn't, wouldn't, have done that on the Sabbath. There were many projects where we worked 10 hour days, six days a week, with Sunday off. NOT working was not an option, most of these contracts were on military stations in remote locations. Johnston Atoll, Kwajalien, Roi Namor, Guam, pacific island groups. Even if you weren't "fired", you would be ordered off the island and not allowed to work. You worked at the pleasure and acceptance of the military command as a civilian contractor.

Footnote: Desmond Doss was drafted!

[doug yowell]

Are we including all military jobs including those in the medical field,medics,ect...those which can save and preserve life?

[ClubV12]

I am!!! In the context of ENLISTING!!! I see absolutely no call, no counsel, not a hint of anything in the Spirit of Prophecy that suggests military service is condoned in terms of volunteer service.

Some Adventists have enlisted and served well, with APPARENTLY few consequences. All though, I don't buy into that concept that there were "no issues" with the Sabbath and with Christian moral conscience. I think there were and it's the kind of thing we sweep under the table because we don't want to "judge" anyone. So lets assume these Adventist served their country, by enlisting, and served their country well. And???? What is that supposed to mean? Is that some kind of justification for Adventist to enlist and serve? Not according to the counsel of the Spirit of Prophecy. Hey, I'm just calling it like I see it, each should consider the counsel for themselves.

A Minister, an evangelist, a colporter also serves, protects and save lives. We have a higher calling.

[doug yowell]

Desmond Doss was drafted!

Desmond Doss was an unusual situation. One that arose in a critical time in the country's history. Doss willingly went wanting to do his duty for his country while being true to his committment to God.His attitude towards the justness of his country's cause led him to persevere thru almost impossible persecution designed to get him to quit the Army. Instead he endured, with miraculous intervention from God. Yet he still didn't fully earn the trust and respect of his fellow officers and unit members until they actually faced death on the battlefield.It was his open life of loyalty that allowed him to do what he did.He came out the same man as when he went in.

[doug yowell]

I am!!! In the context of ENLISTING!!! I see absolutely no call, no counsel, not a hint of anything in the Spirit of Prophecy that suggests military service is condoned in terms of volunteer service.

Some Adventists have enlisted and served well, with APPARENTLY few consequences. All though, I don't buy into that concept that there were "no issues" with the Sabbath and with Christian moral conscience. I think there were and it's the kind of thing we sweep under the table because we don't want to "judge" anyone. So lets assume these Adventist served their country, by enlisting, and served their country well. And???? What is that supposed to mean? Is that some kind of justification for Adventist to enlist and serve? Not according to the counsel of the Spirit of Prophecy. Hey, I'm just calling it like I see it, each should consider the counsel for themselves.

A Minister, an evangelist, a colporter also serves, protects and save lives. We have a higher calling.

How bout chaplain?