Military recruiters in our Schools

[ClubV12]

If you enlist? NOPE, there is a higher calling, it's called, "Minister" of the church.

I hate to be the "hard nose" around this issue, I just don't see ANY counsel that suggests enlisting for any kind of military service is advised. If you got something, post it and let's consider it.

On another note, to dig myself an even deeper hole...

We put SO much emphasis on our "troops", God bless them, protect them, pray for them, etc. What about missionaries and evangelists? Have "troops" replaced the esteem and honor of God's troops? I think to a very large degree they have. What we have shaping up in Irag and Afghan is a "crusade", NOT UNLIKE the crusades of old. Were going in there and rooting out "evil" for God and Country, bless our troops. How about we send in an Army of missionaries armed with the sword of God? How about instead of sending that care package to the troops, we send a care package to our missionaries, sacraficing and working hard, even risking their life in foreign countries?

My "yellow ribbon" would say: "God bless our Missionaries".

[Overaged]

I am!!! In the context of ENLISTING!!! I see absolutely no call, no counsel, not a hint of anything in the Spirit of Prophecy that suggests military service is condoned in terms of volunteer service.

How about the Bible then?

"Blessed are ye that sow beside all waters, " (Isa 32:20)

[Overaged]

If you enlist? NOPE, there is a higher calling, it's called, "Minister" of the church.

I hate to be the "hard nose" around this issue, I just don't see ANY counsel that suggests enlisting for any kind of military service is advised. If you got something, post it and let's consider it.

On another note, to dig myself an even deeper hole...

We put SO much emphasis on our "troops", God bless them, protect them, pray for them, etc. What about missionaries and evangelists? Have "troops" replaced the esteem and honor of God's troops? I think to a very large degree they have. What we have shaping up in Irag and Afghan is a "crusade", NOT UNLIKE the crusades of old. Were going in there and rooting out "evil" for God and Country, bless our troops. How about we send in an Army of missionaries armed with the sword of God? How about instead of sending that care package to the troops, we send a care package to our missionaries, sacraficing and working hard, even risking their life in foreign countries?

My "yellow ribbon" would say: "God bless our Missionaries".

Your "yellow ribbon" could apply to both.

[ClubV12]

Both what? I don't see Government troops as missionaries in any sense. For the most part, being a volunteer military, they are mercenaries, hired guns, food for worms, walking dead men.

[Overaged]

Both what? I don't see Government troops as missionaries in any sense. For the most part, being a volunteer military, they are mercenaries, hired guns, food for worms, walking dead men.

I have asked you several times now if you read my post where i talked about my friend here in the Canadian Army; to which you have not replied yet. If you read that post you will see that he was definitely, and also a missionary!!

[ClubV12]

Actually I did reply, to reiterate that point:

Examples of one or many who served well and had no problems are not something I would consider as an example that suggests enlisting in the military is a good option. I don't believe for a second it is. It should be avoided at all costs. Especially in view of what we know prophecy says will take place at some point. The counsel to get out of the cities, to get out of the Unions I believe especially applies to get out of the military. Before it's to late....

I'm sure there are plenty of good stories about folks who live in the city and do a good work for the Lord. Or folks who worked in a Union all their life and did a good work. In terms of the counsel of the Spirit of Prophecy, it means nothing, the counsel stands.

"Those who claim to be the children of God are in no case to bind up with the labor unions that are formed or that shall be formed. This the Lord forbids. Can not those who study the prophecies see and understand what is before us?"

Manuscript Releases, Volume 7 [Nos. 419-525, 1975-1977]. 1993; 2002 (56). Ellen G. White Estate.

[Overaged]

Sorry; I missed that. I did not realize that your comments also included what I said about my friend in the Canadian Army.

I think that the overall picture of the counsel we have been given would allow for various types of outreach/ministry within the army, and in the middle of a war zone. I don't know of any counsel that would tell us to not do these things to lend a hand, wherever a hand is needed.

I really don't understand your idea of "not fighting." This topic is about bringing military recruiters into our schools. What you are saying here; would at the very least confuse young people quite a bit. I think your hardliner ideas here would just tell them that the church teaches they have no right to defend themselves, and that if they were attacked, no one would be able to defend them because it's "wrong to fight."

Try being present one day at a place where I recently lived in a major Canadian city. 5 members of a local gang, all with weapons, (clubs and chains) surrounding my one son right on our front porch! I went absolutely nuts and sent them all packing. I did not behave like a good little christian. Everyone, my wife, kids and a friend were totally shocked. They said: "We didn't know you could do that." I had to do what I did that day because the cops would not have gotten there in time. And I hear you saying that it is wrong to fight - no matter what. What would I have told my other son, if I listened to your counsel on this, and his brother would not have been able to come home again??

We send a similar mixed message to the world as we theologize about war, and refuse to help the dying and the crippled and the distressed who are caught up in it; and all the while twisting the spirit of prophecy to make it appear to support our view. There is no counsel that tells us not to help people, not to help our neighbors, but as you will recall, there is counsel which says "anyone who needs our help is our neighbor." "Anyone" would include the Army, or a mad dad defending his kids!!!

[ClubV12]

There is no mixed message presented here, the counsel is clear, we have no buisness in the military, period. There is not ONE qoute that can be found that even suggests enlistment is a viable option. The entire counsel, first, considers how to remain out of military service. The rest of the counsel deals with those who are DRAFTED or COMPELLED into military service. To wit: Non combatant status.

The mixed message we are sending to our people is that it's OK to enlist, it is not. It is a gross misrepresentation of the counsel.

As to protecting yourself, your family, your friends we also have counsel. James and Ellen White while traveling from Texas to Colorado employed men as security agents, with guns, to protect the party from indians! We also have insight from the Waldenses, at times they were proactive in protecting their families from those who would seek to injure them. Common sense, as both James and Ellen White said, should prevail. If you are in the Army, do your duty, put your faith in God. To enlist is to PRESUME upon the Lord for protection when you have placed yourself in a straight position.

If you enlist as a Medic, for instance, the Government reserves the right to change your military occupation as the need may arise. There is no gaurentee you will always be a medic, or a clergy. You could be ordered be handed a rifle at any time and placed in a combat situation. In such a case, non-combatant status will on deaf ears.

As Christians it is rather obvious you can let your light shine where ever and what ever the circumstances are. That doesn't mean you can jump off a cliff and He will protect you from a fall, THAT is presumption.

The counsel is also clear on "major Canadian cities", get out, that ye be not partakers of her sins.

[Overaged]

On the contrary; it is a misrepresentation of "counsel" to say that it specifically orders people not to enlist; when it simply does not. We are not counseled to "let the dead bury their dead," (in regards to enlisting) as you have so confidently retorted more than once here. we are not counseled to never help anyone, just because its the army, or a war going on.

In fact inspired counsel tells us that it is almost always unwise to defy military authority, and the laws of your country thereof.

Quote:

When World War I broke out, Ellen White was well advanced in years and she gave no instruction in writing which would bear on the duty of our men to the requirements of military service. In oral conversation she counseled against defying military authority.

Thus through the years we find a consistency in the instruction and counsels which give us a certain assurance that the church as it found its way in the question of the attitude its youth should take to military service, did so in full harmony with the counsels of the Spirit of prophecy, given of God to guide and guard His people.

Who is our "neighbor" Club?

"Anyone who needs our help." I,d really hate to be responsible for giving our young people a message that says: "leave them for dead."

[ClubV12]

The above Spirit of Prophecy quote is counsel to those who ARE DRAFTED. In such cases, as James White put it, it would be "madness" to resist. It in no way implies or suggests enlistment as an option.

The ENTIRE BODY of counsel concerns itself deals with those who are DRAFTED. There is not ONE sentence that can be read as authorizing enlistment, not one.

The issues here revolve around the 4th and 6th commandment. Keep the Sabbath and do not kill. During WW2 Adventist MEDICS were shot to death on the front line because they refused to bear arms. Even though non-combatant status was granted, individual commanders took a different approach as they deemed necessary. Adventists were imprisoned for refusing to work on the Sabbath for instance.

In these cases, the Spirit of Prophey and the General Conference down through the years and today takes the position that is up to the individual to determine where they should draw the line. This is there is no condemnation from the church as it concerns Sabbath or even bearing arms. To avoid what James White called "madness". ALL of this is in referrence to those who are drafted!!!!

In times of war even the Army Band will be commanded to bear arms. To suggest that to "protect your neighbor" by bearing arms and killing another is "acceptable" is a direct violation of the sixth commandment.

To suggest that the church condones enlistment IS madness!

[Kevin H]

Although Desmond Doss was drafted, he was in a civilian job that was seen as essential for the war effort and thus was exempt from the draft and he had to do things to not use his draft exemption because he felt it was his duty to serve.

I'm not sure of the Navy, but while technically the Army does not garentee your job, the Air Force does, and the Army tends to offer training as their need is and having spent thousands to train you in a job decreases your chance of being put in another job that you are not trained in. Also, Clergy is seen as "borrowed" from their churches to serve in clergy positions and thus not allowed to be given other jobs.

Also, the Military has seen that it is to their advantage to accomadate for religion, and that the people who they are making the accomadations for are otherwise good members who's seen as assests to the military and thus they have become more accomidating. Yes, I do encourage choosing your job wisely, there are things I'd rather be doing than in the medical field, but want to avoid the conflects that ClubV is rightly conserned with.

ClubV also says that people who serve as pastors, missionaries and evangelists are also serving. However do you know how difficult it is to get those jobs, especially during economic down turns? And the church needs non-church workers to pay tithe and offerings to bring into the church. The people who are serving in the military are doing their jobs just like someone working at McDonnalds, Walmart, the local community hospital, the local office building, or driving a truck etc.

[Stan]

I do not think he was drafted, when we meet with him to get the rights for the movie he said he volunteered..

The concept of this thread was really not if military is good or bad, every Gov't needs one. ALMOST every one.

BUIT who is recruiting our schools to join the Lord's Army?

AND it was not just about the US, what about our Kids in Cuba? Iraq? Poland? Brazil?

What if an Adventist in one Army kills another adventist in the other side?

S Christians we have been given the Gospel Commission, that is what we are called to do.

To say all war is always bad or needed is an overstatement. Each situation is different.

I know countries have to protect their citizens etc.

Those who have their citizenships in heaven MUST join the Lord's Army. I think Nursing is one of the most honorable professions, and am sure you were able to minister to a lot of people of the years

[ClubV12]

Doss was working at a shipyard back east (Virgina I think) when Pearl Harbor was struck. Most of those building ships at that time were offered release from the draft as their work was already an important part of the war effort. He refused the deferrement and registered for the draft as a conscientious objector and was subsequently drafted.

While his legendary feat of retrieving some 75 wounded soldiers from the top of a "cliff" is the most well known, additional accounts of his incredible bravery are just as awe inspiring. That 75 man rescue was only ONE example! He was wounded several different times while providing aid, once by a sniper bullet, another time by a grenade. One time while on a stretcher waiting to be carried to help, he crawled OFF the stretcher when he spotted another man more injured than he and insisted that man be cared for first. Man, this is gonna be one must see documentary!!!

Bravery or a deep respect and love for God compelling him to put others first? I'll go with #2, bravery alone cannot account for these extraordinary actions. As he carried those 75 men to safty he breathed a prayer, "Just one more, Lord, help me get one more."

[ClubV12]

In a time of war, all bets are off as to what you THINK was promised by anyone. When your on the front line, as a C.O. and your commanding officer doesn't care and orders you to pick up a rifle, THAT becomes military law. Two Adventists in WW2 were shot on the front line for disobeying that direct order, at the direction of their commanding officer. Were they RIGHT to resist at that moment? James White would not condem nor condone their actions, and THIS was fundamentally the position of the church. That each man must decide for himself when that moment of truth comes, what he will do before man and God. To resist, in some cases, to bring this severe trial upon yourself without thinking through the consequences would be "madness". Even suicide as Sister White called it (presumption). But there would be no direct condemnation or condoning of a mans actions in other cases, like on the front line.

So you enlist, because, you know, jobs are tough to find (thats a good reason to also consider prostitution as a career I guess). And then find yourself in Viet Nam, or Irag, as a Medic of course, but NOT a non-combatant, because you enlisted. Your with a commanding officer who could care less what you call yourself when the base is under attack, or your squad is ambushed. When your ordered to pick up the rifle or be shot on the spot, what will you do? What will you do? The counsel of the church is that you will have to work that out for yourself.

[Kevin H]

ClubV, because of what happened to those people in WWII the military did change. When I went to Desert Shield, they told us that because we were medical that we were all automatically 1AO and could only carry wepons if we volunteer to give up our 1AO status. Of course most everyone did but we cannot put what was on what currently is.

Now again, I warn with caution since we are in the process of changing from the American Republic into the Great Industral world state. But for now there are many Seventh-day Adventist faithfully serving, and willing to minister to people in the horrors of war.

[phkrause]

GP, here's a link to an article about him in AR:

www.adventistreview.org/article.php?id=2055

[ClubV12]

A good article PK, but I do take acception with this statement:

"Instead of accepting a deferment from the military draft, Doss voluntarily joined the U.S. Army, but never took up arms."

That should read: "Doss voluntarioy signed up for the draft, as a non-combatant."

Had he actually enlisted non-combatant status would not have been applicable. With few exceptions that has always been the case with the military. Enlist and you give up your rights to conscience.

On another note, one (or two) of Ellen Whites children wanted to enlist for the Civil War and "played" soldier. There is something about the "glory and honor" of war that attracts young men. Little do they realize the ugly reality of it at a young age. While WW2 was a "noble" war, to a young man that is not a primary issue. Travel, excitement, a sense of National Pride, the thought of ribbons, medals and action take precedence over the details of a good or bad war. National pride also take precedence over the logic of which side is right or wrong.