The Case For the Investigative Judgment

[John317]

You have also shown and demonstrated that you cannot show the Investigative Judgment doctrine is in the Bible and the Bible only.

All we are doing here on this discussion is showing the evidence for the Investigative Judgment. We're not here to convince you that it is true. We're only here to show that there is Bible evidence for the doctrine.

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

....To be judged from the books in heaven is shown in detail in Rev 20:15. If one's name is not in the book of life, he is thrown into the lake of fire. Simple. Clear.

Not only is there a book of life, which lists the name of those who are saved, but there are also books containing the deeds that people have done. They are judged according to what is contained in those books about their lives:

...

The NT of the Bible in its original tongue does not quite agree, brother, that those books contain deeds that people have done. Don't go in circles please. We have tackled this issue before. See post #522066.

[Lysimachus]

Quote:

Psalms

51:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba. Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.

51:2 Wash me thoroughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.

51:3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin [is] ever before me.

51:4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done [this] evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, [and] be clear when thou judgest.

51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

51:6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden [part] thou shalt make me to know wisdom.

51:7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

51:8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; [that] the bones [which] thou hast broken may rejoice.

51:9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.

Clearly, David recognizes that his sins are recorded in books in heaven. This is why David is praying to God that his sins might be "blotted out". The word "blotting" is a word indicative of "writing".

David also had "books" in mind:

Quote:

Psalms

69:27 Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness.

69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

51:9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.

Same context with the "book of the living" brings out "blotting out", and then in the same context mentions "blot out all mine iniquities".

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: miz3

You have also shown and demonstrated that you cannot show the Investigative Judgment doctrine is in the Bible and the Bible only.

All we are doing here on this discussion is showing the evidence for the Investigative Judgment. We're not here to convince you that it is true. We're only here to show that there is Bible evidence for the doctrine.

There is no Bible evidence, John. You have not shown any. You have failed to prove from Scriptures sins are written in heaven.

But temporarily granting but not acceding that sins are indeed written in heaven, your IJ will wipe the bad records clean, right? So what remains to be read from the record books in Rev 20:12, brother?

Whichever way you go, the Bible does not go along with your contention.

[Samie]

I am amazed at how someone defending what he says is truth can go down to such a low level as to resort to ad hominem comments:

Quote:

Your gnarled mind has lost the ability to see things in their simplicity.

[John317]

Primary texts in support of the Investigative Judgment:

Psalm 77:13

Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary: who is so great a God as our God?

Compare Ps. 63: 2 and 73: 17--

Psalm 63:2

To see thy power and thy glory, so as I have seen thee in the sanctuary.

Psalm 73:17

Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end [i.e., the end of the ungodly].

Exodus 25:8-9

And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them. [9] According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it.

Hebrews 8:5

Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

Hebrews 9:2-7

For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary. [3] And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all; [4] Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant; [5] And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly. [6] Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God. [7] But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

Daniel 8:14

And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days [or evening-mornings]; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed [or restored].

Daniel 9:20-27

And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the Lord my God for the holy mountain of my God; [21] Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation. [22] And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding. [23] At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision. [24] Seventy weeks are determined [or cut off] upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. [25] Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks [490 years]: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. [26] And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. [27] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Hebrews 10:10-14

By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. [11] And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: [12] But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; [13] From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. [14] For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Hebrews 4:14-16

Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. [15] For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. [16] Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

[John317]

Primary texts in support of the Investigative Judgment:

Continued

Leviticus 16:1-34

And the Lord spake unto Moses after the death of the two sons of Aaron, when they offered before the Lord, and died; [2] And the Lord said unto Moses, Speak unto Aaron thy brother, that he come not at all times into the holy place within the vail before the mercy seat, which is upon the ark; that he die not: for I will appear in the cloud upon the mercy seat. [3] Thus shall Aaron come into the holy place: with a young bullock for a sin offering, and a ram for a burnt offering. [4] He shall put on the holy linen coat, and he shall have the linen breeches upon his flesh, and shall be girded with a linen girdle, and with the linen mitre shall he be attired: these are holy garments; therefore shall he wash his flesh in water, and so put them on. [5] And he shall take of the congregation of the children of Israel two kids of the goats for a sin offering, and one ram for a burnt offering. [6] And Aaron shall offer his bullock of the sin offering, which is for himself, and make an atonement for himself, and for his house. [7] And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the Lord at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. [8] And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the Lord, and the other lot for the scapegoat. [9] And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the Lord's lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering. [10] But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the Lord, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness. [11] And Aaron shall bring the bullock of the sin offering, which is for himself, and shall make an atonement for himself, and for his house, and shall kill the bullock of the sin offering which is for himself: [12] And he shall take a censer full of burning coals of fire from off the altar before the Lord, and his hands full of sweet incense beaten small, and bring it within the vail: [13] And he shall put the incense upon the fire before the Lord, that the cloud of the incense may cover the mercy seat that is upon the testimony, that he die not: [14] And he shall take of the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it with his finger upon the mercy seat eastward; and before the mercy seat shall he sprinkle of the blood with his finger seven times.

[15] Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat: [16] And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness. [17] And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy place, until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel. [18] And he shall go out unto the altar that is before the Lord, and make an atonement for it; and shall take of the blood of the bullock, and of the blood of the goat, and put it upon the horns of the altar round about. [19] And he shall sprinkle of the blood upon it with his finger seven times, and cleanse it, and hallow it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel.

[20] And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy place, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat: [21] And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: [22] And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness. [23] And Aaron shall come into the tabernacle of the congregation, and shall put off the linen garments, which he put on when he went into the holy place, and shall leave them there: [24] And he shall wash his flesh with water in the holy place, and put on his garments, and come forth, and offer his burnt offering, and the burnt offering of the people, and make an atonement for himself, and for the people. [25] And the fat of the sin offering shall he burn upon the altar. [26] And he that let go the goat for the scapegoat shall wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in water, and afterward come into the camp. [27] And the bullock for the sin offering, and the goat for the sin offering, whose blood was brought in to make atonement in the holy place, shall one carry forth without the camp; and they shall burn in the fire their skins, and their flesh, and their dung. [28] And he that burneth them shall wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in water, and afterward he shall come into the camp.

[29] And this shall be a statute for ever unto you: that in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, ye shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, whether it be one of your own country, or a stranger that sojourneth among you: [30] For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the Lord. [31] It shall be a sabbath of rest unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls, by a statute for ever. [32] And the priest, whom he shall anoint, and whom he shall consecrate to minister in the priest's office in his father's stead, shall make the atonement, and shall put on the linen clothes, even the holy garments: [33] And he shall make an atonement for the holy sanctuary, and he shall make an atonement for the tabernacle of the congregation, and for the altar, and he shall make an atonement for the priests, and for all the people of the congregation. [34] And this shall be an everlasting statute unto you, to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a year. And he did as the Lord commanded Moses.

Hebrews 8:1-2

Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; [2] A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true [real] tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

Hebrews 9:23

Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

Hebrews 9:24

For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.

Romans 14:10

Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.

2 Cor. 5:10

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

Rev. 22:11-12

He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. [12] And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Eccles. 12:13-14

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. [14] For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

James 2:10-12

For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. [11] For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. [12] So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

1 Peter 4:17

For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

[John317]

Primary texts in support of the Investigative Judgment:

Continued

Matthew 22:1-14

And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said, [2] The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, [3] And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. [4] Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. [5] But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: [6] And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. [7] But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. [8] Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy. [9] Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. [10] So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

[11] And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: [12] And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. [13] Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. [14] For many are called, but few are chosen.

Rev. 14:6-7

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, [7] Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Daniel 7:9-10

I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. [10] A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment [court] was set, and the books were opened.

Daniel 7:13-14

I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. [14] And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Daniel 7:21-22

I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; [22] Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Daniel 7:23-27

Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. [24] And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. [25] And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. [26] But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. [27] And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Rev. 11:18-19

And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. [19] And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Matthew 25:31-46

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: [32] And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: [33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. [34] Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: [35] For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: [36] Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. [37] Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? [38] When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? [39] Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? [40] And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. [41] Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: [42] For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: [43] I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. [44] Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? [45] Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. [46] And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Rev. 20:4-15

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. [6] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. [7] And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, [8] And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. [9] And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. [10] And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

[11] And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. [12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. [13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. [14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. [15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Acts 3:19-20

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; [20] And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

2 Cor. 6:2

For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.

[John317]

Not only is there a book of life, which lists the name of those who are saved, but there are also books containing the deeds that people have done. They are judged according to what is contained in those books about their lives:

...

Originally Posted By: Samie

The NT of the Bible in its original tongue does not quite agree, brother, that those books contain deeds that people have done.

Explain to me the original "tongue." How does it not agree with what I'm saying and with the translations I've quoted? Please show it.

[Lysimachus]

I am amazed at how someone defending what he says is truth can go down to such a low level as to resort to ad hominem comments:

Quote:

Your gnarled mind has lost the ability to see things in their simplicity.

I'm trying to make a point Samie. It is true that you gnarl up simple things, making them so complicated, that you lose sight of the big picture. You zero in on technicalities that are irrelevant, imagining that somehow becuase the word "heaven" is missing from these texts, that this is the reason you can justify not having to subscribe to believing in the Investigative Judgment. It is amazing to me how you can actually convince yourself that these doctrines are false based on technical and irrelevant arrangements of words and letters. You get hung up on letters and sentence structures rather than concepts. You lose site of the "thoughts" God is trying to convey through His Word because you become more concerned with the arrangements of words and letters.

This is where you greatly err.

This is the common habit detractors end up resorting to in the end after they have lost all their other grounds.

Spiritual things are spiritually discerned.

P.S. My apologies if you took offense to this, however. It was not my intent to offend. But it should not be too difficult for you to see how easy it is to develop frustration when we begin to argue over letters and their arrangements.

[John317]

But temporarily granting but not acceding that sins are indeed written in heaven, your IJ will wipe the bad records clean, right? So what remains to be read from the record books in Rev 20:12, brother?

Whichever way you go, the Bible does not go along with your contention.

How can you claim the Bible does not "go along" with what I'm saying, when it's obvious from your posts that you don't understand what I'm saying or what the Bible teaches on this topic?

For instance, you ask what remains to be read from the record books in Rev. 20: 12, if indeed the IJ wipes the bad records clean. That is a good question, but it shows that you are not in a position to claim the doctrine contradicts the Bible. To do that, you need first of all to understand the Investigative Judgment. Otherwise you are rejecting something you don't understand.

SDAs don't claim that the IJ wipes clean all records of sins. It only wipes clean the records of those who are saved, not of those who are lost.

The only records considered in the IJ are those of people who have made a profession of faith in God/Christ, from the time of Adam to the very last person making a profession of faith prior to the return of Jesus.

Everyone's sins are blotted out or else their name is blotted out. If a person's name is blotted out, their sins remain on the record books.

[tall73]

Yes, Christ needed to die ONCE, but His ministration in the Holy Place fulfilled the earthly daily ministration. Every day priests were available at the door of the tabernacle, but lambs had to be sacrificed every day. Christ was available throughout the daily. Even the regular priests were types of Christ.

If Christ ascended to heaven and went straight to the Most Holy Place and then sat down next to the Father in the Most Holy Place, this would mean that Christ completely bypassed the Holy Place, and that would render the Holy Place useless. Revelation is VERY clear in Revelation 15:5 that there are 2 apartments.

Keep in mind that if atonement were over, then the Day of Atonement would be over. But that makes no sense, because that was the probation day. If you had any unforsaken sins, you were cast out of the congregation of Israel. Probation still exists for mankind as Christ intercedes for us. The benefits of that atonement are being applied daily (not lamb's dying daily, but intercession daily based on that one death--catch the difference).

The daily sacrifices signfied that intercession for the penitent sinner was maid available daily. It signified that Christ, as our High Priest intercedes for us, is available at any time for us to come before and confess our sins. "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9).

I was going to reply to every point raised, but it looks like this thread has gone way off track from laying out the various elements of evidence, and now looks more like a thread on whether there are books. So as to not take it further off track I will just summarize my main point and then leave you all to your discussion:

A. Even Bob admits that Jesus already fulfilled the death and entry into the sanctuary for the Day of Atonement.

B. The entry of Jesus, and presentation before God into the sanctuary is portrayed in Day of Atonement language, comparing it to the entry of the earthly high priest on the Day of Atonement. This is in a passage also discussing the cleansing of the heavenly things.

Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.

Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own,

Here we see that the necessity of the cleansing is referenced.

Then it says "FOR", indicating he is still discussing this cleansing.

Christ entered, in comparison to the

-high priest

-yearly

- with blood

This is the day of atonement. There was no other high priestly yearly entry to cleans the sanctuary.

Moreover, Hebrews 1:3 indicates the purification was made before Jesus sat down:

Heb 1:3b After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

Now for those who ay it doesn't fit the timing of the type--nor does having the ratification of the covenant and the inauguration at the same time. But it happened here.

Nor does having the sacrifice for the feast of tabernacles being at the same time as that for the passover. But it happened here, etc.

If the death and entry for the Day of Atonement are happening in the first century, then the type timing is already off. We can't interpret the heavenly by the earthly illustration. The heavenly is the true, not the other way around. And some things are different--yet better--in the heavenly. And Jesus right at the outset of the Christian era making purification for sins allows each Christian then to decide whether they will accept it right from the beginning.

In the earthly the cleansing in the sanctuary happened in the end of the year. Yet all in the camp could participate. The only way for all Christians to participate was for it to be done right away. And it was done as part of a series of once for all events that just don't happen later--once for all death, once for all entry, and the presentation before the Father not yearly, but once.

Jesus made purification for sins then sat down.

Now, that doesn't mean the whole symbolism of the Day of Atonement is exhausted yet. The scapegoat portion happened when He left the sanctuary, which He has not done yet.

This will likely still happen at the end in line with the timing of the Day of Atonement.

Now as to being cut off with the Day of Atonement, that same rule applied to someone who didn't keep the passover, or didn't keep the sabbath. So don't read into it more than you need to.

The Day of Atonement cleansing by blood happened in the sanctuary and was a cleansing application of blood for all sins of all in the camp. That is just what Jesus did in the first century.

The Day of Atonement didn't have investigation of the blood, or anything of the sort. The High Priest made the blood application to atone for sins.

Jesus did the same.

Now we either accept it or we don't.

The Day of Atonement is just one of a whole list of things Jesus is said to have fulfilled in Hebrews 9.

[Tom Wetmore]

MODERATOR NOTE:

It is clear that some people simply cannot help themselves. The warning message about ad hominem commentary was given the last time this topic was locked. It has not been heeded. Now this topic is locked permanently.