The Case For the Investigative Judgment

[miz3]

Some Bible facts:

1. All sins - past, present, future - were forgiven on the cross.

Colossians 2:13-14

Quote:

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

2. Current sins committed are not imputed against man since these had been forgiven and man reconciled / atoned on the cross ('reconciliation' and 'atonement' are from the same Greek 'katallage').

2 Corinthians 5:18-19

Quote:

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation

Romans 5:10-11

Quote:

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

3. In the New Covenant, God does not and refuses to remember any sin no matter how hard one tries to remind Him about anyone of them.

Hebrews 10:16-17

Quote:

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more

If all sins have been forgiven and taken away, and no record of sin maintained since God refuses to remember all sins, what then remains to be cleansed from the sanctuary?

[miz3]

[Lysimachus]

Again, NOT BIBLICAL. You are a "human centric" when it comes to Salvation. Samie is "God centiric" about Salvation the same as the Bible is "God centric".

You keep adding things to Scripture rather than taking the Scriptures as they read.

If it's not Biblical, prove it, and show me why it's unbiblical. I provided Biblical arguments. Show me what's non Biblical about it.

[Lysimachus]

So the Cross is NOT ENOUGH.

My, my imagine that God/Jesus Christ not being able to save without the help of humanity.

What a small God/Jesus Christ is. I guess when God says that He/God/Jesus Christ say that they save us humans they are lying because they should be saying:

"God with the help of the human is able to save."

Boy, Oh Boy did God mess up when He wrote the Bible.

Good thing we have human entities and outside sources to explain the Word of God because God was not good enough to explain things adequately to us.

You sound like a typical Evangelical that waves his hands in the air and says "Jesus PAID IT ALL!"

The cross was enough. Had it not been for the cross, we could have no mediation now. It's that one-sacrifice-for-all that makes Christ's intercession in the heavenly sanctuary possible.

Christ's entry into the Most Holy Place in 1844 was JUST as significant as the death of Christ on the Cross in 31 A.D.

Miz3, have you read those 3 articles I linked yet?

I challenge you to refute them:

The Sanctuary Doctrine: Cultic or Biblical?

Part 1: http://www.greatcontroversy.org/gco/rar/pau-sdcb1.php

Part 2: http://www.greatcontroversy.org/gco/rar/pau-sdcb2.php

Part 3: http://www.greatcontroversy.org/gco/rar/pau-sdcb3.php

If so, what did you think?

Did you notice how much Bible was used to prove our Sanctuary Doctrine?

I'm waiting to see who will refute these articles and the scriptures provided in them.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Again, NOT BIBLICAL. You are a "human centric" when it comes to Salvation. Samie is "God centiric" about Salvation the same as the Bible is "God centric".

You keep adding things to Scripture rather than taking the Scriptures as they read.

If it's not Biblical, prove it, and show me why it's unbiblical. I provided Biblical arguments. Show me what's non Biblical about it.

I did prove it to you in other posts on other threads.

[miz3]

Lysimachus here is what the Bible in the clearest of language presents.

"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Romans 5:12-21.

What does the text say:

1. sin entered the world through one man. Verse 12.

Who was that one man, the Bible says that one man was Adam.

2. because of sin death came to all humans. Verse 12.

3. because sin came to all humans, all humans have sinned. Verse 12

4. before the law was given (Sinai) sin was in the world. Verse 13.

5. Sin was NOT taken into account when there is no law. Verse 13.

6. nevertheless death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses (law given at Sinai) even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam. Verse 14.

7. Adam is the PATTERN of the one to come. Verse 14. (the One to come is Jesus Christ).

8. the gift is not like the trespass. (In other words the trespass of ONE MAN made the many humans die). Verse 15.

9. God's Grace and the gift that came by that very Grace came through one man also Jesus Christ. And that Grace and Grace's gift overflowed to the many. Verse 15.

10. Judgment followed one sin and condemned many.

The Gift (Jesus Christ on the Cross) followed many sins brought JUSTIFICATION.

VERSE SIXTEEN.

Notice the Gift (the Cross) brought Justification.

11. Trespass of one man (Adam) death reigned through that one man to all humans.

God's Grace and the gift of Righteousness life reigned through that one man (Jesus Christ) to all humans.

Verse seventeen.

12. One trespass resulted in condemnation of all humans.

One act of Righteousness resulted in Justification for all men.

Verse Eighteen.

Verse Eighteen is the clincher even though it repeats what the rest of the passage is saying.

13. In addition notice verse twenty-one (21) when it say that because of Jesus Christ "eternal life" was given to all.

Quote:

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING IN THIS TEXT ANYTHING ABOUT THE HUMAN ENTITY DOING ANYTHING AT ALL IN ORDER TO:

A. BE JUSTIFIED.

B. HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.

NOTICE ALSO THAT HUMANS DID ABSOLUTELY NOTHING IN ORDER TO :

A. BE CONDEMNED.

B. HAVE DEATH REIGN OVER THEM.

If God had wanted to make "conditions" like having faith, choosing God, etc. etc. etc. then God would have said so in this passage.

However there is absolutely zip, nada, zero "conditions". That is zero conditions either for death or Eternal Life.

GOD/JESUS CHRIST DID IT ALL ON EVERY SIDE OF EVERYTHING. NO HUMAN ANYTHING.

Thus, I wonder why you continue to put burdensome conditions on humans in order for them to be saved? Are you afraid the Law will be abused? If so is that really your job. I thought it was God's job to watch out for the Law. I was not aware that you as an individual and/or the SDA Church .org had been given the JOB of safeguarding the LAW of God.

Are you afraid of "cheap grace" and/or "universalism" none of which the Bible teaches is true. Yet you feel as if you need to "add something" so humans don't even think they can "con" God. As if God is really that stupid.

Just like Uzzah and the falling Ark of the Covenant you think you have to do God's Job for Him just in case some human foolio thinks they can con God. Such feelings are typical of the human being.

However, the Bible says God cannot be fooled by the human entity under any circumstances.

It appears that your words and thoughts do not believe God and what His Word the Bible actually says.

[doug yowell]

Lysimachus here is what the Bible in the clearest of language presents.

[5. Sin was taken into account when there is no law. Verse 13.

Was that a typo? I think you meant to include the word not,yes?

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Lysimachus here is what the Bible in the clearest of language presents.

[5. Sin was taken into account when there is no law. Verse 13.

Was that a typo? I think you meant to include the word not,yes?

Thank you that is indeed a typo. I should go back and correct it.

[miz3]

Thank you Doug. I have now changed it.

I hope there are no more typos.

[Lysimachus]

Lysimachus here is what the Bible in the clearest of language presents.

"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Romans 5:12-21.

What does the text say:

1. sin entered the world through one man. Verse 12.

Who was that one man, the Bible says that one man was Adam.

2. because of sin death came to all humans. Verse 12.

3. because sin came to all humans, all humans have sinned. Verse 12

4. before the law was given (Sinai) sin was in the world. Verse 13.

5. Sin was NOT taken into account when there is no law. Verse 13.

6. nevertheless death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses (law given at Sinai) even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam. Verse 14.

7. Adam is the PATTERN of the one to come. Verse 14. (the One to come is Jesus Christ).

8. the gift is not like the trespass. (In other words the trespass of ONE MAN made the many humans die). Verse 15.

9. God's Grace and the gift that came by that very Grace came through one man also Jesus Christ. And that Grace and Grace's gift overflowed to the many. Verse 15.

10. Judgment followed one sin and condemned many.

The Gift (Jesus Christ on the Cross) followed many sins brought JUSTIFICATION.

VERSE SIXTEEN.

Notice the Gift (the Cross) brought Justification.

11. Trespass of one man (Adam) death reigned through that one man to all humans.

God's Grace and the gift of Righteousness life reigned through that one man (Jesus Christ) to all humans.

Verse seventeen.

12. One trespass resulted in condemnation of all humans.

One act of Righteousness resulted in Justification for all men.

Verse Eighteen.

Verse Eighteen is the clincher even though it repeats what the rest of the passage is saying.

13. In addition notice verse twenty-one (21) when it say that because of Jesus Christ "eternal life" was given to all.

Quote:

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING IN THIS TEXT ANYTHING ABOUT THE HUMAN ENTITY DOING ANYTHING AT ALL IN ORDER TO:

A. BE JUSTIFIED.

B. HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.

NOTICE ALSO THAT HUMANS DID ABSOLUTELY NOTHING IN ORDER TO :

A. BE CONDEMNED.

B. HAVE DEATH REIGN OVER THEM.

If God had wanted to make "conditions" like having faith, choosing God, etc. etc. etc. then God would have said so in this passage.

However there is absolutely zip, nada, zero "conditions". That is zero conditions either for death or Eternal Life.

GOD/JESUS CHRIST DID IT ALL ON EVERY SIDE OF EVERYTHING. NO HUMAN ANYTHING.

Thus, I wonder why you continue to put burdensome conditions on humans in order for them to be saved? Are you afraid the Law will be abused? If so is that really your job. I thought it was God's job to watch out for the Law. I was not aware that you as an individual and/or the SDA Church .org had been given the JOB of safeguarding the LAW of God.

Are you afraid of "cheap grace" and/or "universalism" none of which the Bible teaches is true. Yet you feel as if you need to "add something" so humans don't even think they can "con" God. As if God is really that stupid.

Just like Uzzah and the falling Ark of the Covenant you think you have to do God's Job for Him just in case some human foolio thinks they can con God. Such feelings are typical of the human being.

However, the Bible says God cannot be fooled by the human entity under any circumstances.

It appears that your words and thoughts do not believe God and what His Word the Bible actually says.

Miz3, there is absolutely nothing here that contradicts anything I said. When have I denied that Christ's death on the cross brought justification to all men?

Have you read the sermons by A.T. Jones and Waggoner? You do realize that they preached from Romans 5 and spoke about legal justification for all men?

But you also know that A.T. Jones and Waggoner believed in the Investigative Pre-Advent judgment as well at the SAME time?

How come they could harmonize the two concepts, and you seem incapable of doing so?

I would advise you to quit pretending that we Adventists are unfamiliar with these verses. We preach them from the pulpits aloud. Adventist theologians, pastors, and teachers have expounded on these passages over and over and over again, and then you come in here with your little self throwing around Romans 5 with a fit as if somehow you have finally found the KEY ANSWER to refute our Investigative Judgment doctrine, and that we don't have to do anything on our part to be saved.

It doesn't work that way. You think there is a contradiction, but there isn't!

When Christ died on the cross, IN Christ (not outside of Christ), He brought legal justification to all men. But outside of Christ, there is no justification. IN Christ, the whole human race was accepted in the beloved. But justification only comes upon REPENTANCE. And guess what miz3? Repentance REQUIRES you DOING something.

"IF we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. " (1 John 1:9)

"REPENT ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord." (Acts 3:19)

Justification does not come to you UNLESS you take HOLD of that gift by DYING TO SELF, and accepting Christ to live in your heart.

It requires a CROSS that you must BEAR!

Once again miz3, you are committing the fallacy of the "One Johnny Doctrine", where you try to showboat your understanding of Romans 5 without letting ANY OTHER SCRIPTURES define theology for you.

That's not the Biblical way, nor is it the Adventist way. Adventists take in the TOTALITY of the Word of God, from GENESIS TO REVELATION to come to Sound Doctrine. We do not, and I repeat, we do NOT establish our doctrines based ON SINGLE ISOLATED TEXTS, CHAPTERS, OR PASSAGES. But the TOTALITY of SACRED WRIT.

Matthew 19:17 - "And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but IF thou wilt enter into life, KEEP the commandments."

Revelation 22:14 - "Blessed are they that DO his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."

John 5:20 - "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that DOETH the will of my Father which is in heaven."

John 14:21 - "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him."

1 John 2:3,4 - "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, IS A LIAR, and the truth is not in him."

And what happens to "liars" miz3 according to scripture?

Revelation 21:8 - "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, AND ALL LIARS, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

Sorry Miz3, scriptures are plain. All those who are not DOERS are LIARS, and ALL LIARS WILL HAVE THEIR PART IN THE LAKE OF FIRE!

To say that salvation has nothing to do with what we do is a LIE FROM SATAN.

Your argument that because the "passage" in Romans 5 does not mention anything about us having to do anything on our part to be justified will NOT STAND the test of scriptural investigation, because your conclusion is NOT based on the TOTALITY of God's Word.

"For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the DOERS of the LAW shall be JUSTIFIED." Romans 2:13

Is there any reason, Miz3, that these verses never make it in your vocabulary?

"And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him DENY HIMSELF, and TAKE UP HIS CROSS DAILY, and follow me." (Luke 9:23)

As we can see miz3, the scriptures contradict you, and your case does not stand.

...and for the record, you still have not grappled or addressed the articles I posted, or the Biblical arguments contained therein.

[Dr. Rich]

Anyone notice the conflict and disagreements on this thread? Why? Which side is believing and practicing a lie? (Rev. 21:8 &27 and Rev. 22:15) Both sides believe what they want to believe because it can be found in the bible. However, when you take only the OT and the words of Jesus given to us by His eyewitnesses, then, and only then will you have unity and the real truth concerning salvation and judgment. Try it and find out what the real truth is regarding this issue.

[miz3]

Lysimachus here is what the Bible in the clearest of language presents.

"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Romans 5:12-21.

What does the text say:

1. sin entered the world through one man. Verse 12.

Who was that one man, the Bible says that one man was Adam.

2. because of sin death came to all humans. Verse 12.

3. because sin came to all humans, all humans have sinned. Verse 12

4. before the law was given (Sinai) sin was in the world. Verse 13.

5. Sin was NOT taken into account when there is no law. Verse 13.

6. nevertheless death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses (law given at Sinai) even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam. Verse 14.

7. Adam is the PATTERN of the one to come. Verse 14. (the One to come is Jesus Christ).

8. the gift is not like the trespass. (In other words the trespass of ONE MAN made the many humans die). Verse 15.

9. God's Grace and the gift that came by that very Grace came through one man also Jesus Christ. And that Grace and Grace's gift overflowed to the many. Verse 15.

10. Judgment followed one sin and condemned many.

The Gift (Jesus Christ on the Cross) followed many sins brought JUSTIFICATION.

VERSE SIXTEEN.

Notice the Gift (the Cross) brought Justification.

11. Trespass of one man (Adam) death reigned through that one man to all humans.

God's Grace and the gift of Righteousness life reigned through that one man (Jesus Christ) to all humans.

Verse seventeen.

12. One trespass resulted in condemnation of all humans.

One act of Righteousness resulted in Justification for all men.

Verse Eighteen.

Verse Eighteen is the clincher even though it repeats what the rest of the passage is saying.

13. In addition notice verse twenty-one (21) when it say that because of Jesus Christ "eternal life" was given to all.

Quote:

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING IN THIS TEXT ANYTHING ABOUT THE HUMAN ENTITY DOING ANYTHING AT ALL IN ORDER TO:

A. BE JUSTIFIED.

B. HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.

NOTICE ALSO THAT HUMANS DID ABSOLUTELY NOTHING IN ORDER TO :

A. BE CONDEMNED.

B. HAVE DEATH REIGN OVER THEM.

If God had wanted to make "conditions" like having faith, choosing God, etc. etc. etc. then God would have said so in this passage.

However there is absolutely zip, nada, zero "conditions". That is zero conditions either for death or Eternal Life.

GOD/JESUS CHRIST DID IT ALL ON EVERY SIDE OF EVERYTHING. NO HUMAN ANYTHING.

Thus, I wonder why you continue to put burdensome conditions on humans in order for them to be saved? Are you afraid the Law will be abused? If so is that really your job. I thought it was God's job to watch out for the Law. I was not aware that you as an individual and/or the SDA Church .org had been given the JOB of safeguarding the LAW of God.

Are you afraid of "cheap grace" and/or "universalism" none of which the Bible teaches is true. Yet you feel as if you need to "add something" so humans don't even think they can "con" God. As if God is really that stupid.

Just like Uzzah and the falling Ark of the Covenant you think you have to do God's Job for Him just in case some human foolio thinks they can con God. Such feelings are typical of the human being.

However, the Bible says God cannot be fooled by the human entity under any circumstances.

It appears that your words and thoughts do not believe God and what His Word the Bible actually says.

[Lysimachus]

1. You say nothing I said contradicts what you said. Then later in your response you do indeed contradict what I said. You said it requires "repentance" on the part of the human in order to receive "Justification". That humans must do something. Again that contradicts what I said in that humans do not have to do anything to be Justified.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

1. You say nothing I said contradicts what you said. Then later in your response you do indeed contradict what I said. You said it requires "repentance" on the part of the human in order to receive "Justification". That humans must do something. Again that contradicts what I said in that humans do not have to do anything to be Justified.

It does not contradict any of the Bible quotes you gave, I meant. Try to read between the lines instead of getting hung up on whether every sentence is perfectly rounded. Of course it contradicts your interpretation of those verses, I agree.

Originally Posted By: miz3

That directly contradicts Romans chapter five which says that all humans were justified and that humans did not do anything in order to receive God's Justification.

So the Bible contradicts itself? Do those verses I provided mean anything to you?

Originally Posted By: miz3

Romans chapter five says nothing about "repentance" as a "requirement" for Justification. Romans chapter five says that humans were Justified by Jesus Christ on the Cross. Romans chapter five insists that humans do not have to anything at all in order to be Justified.

Romans 5 simply isn't discussing the human side. It is discussing what Christ has done for us. The gift is for all men, but nowhere does it say in Romans 5 that every man takes hold and accepts that gift that is already theirs. Other scriptures elaborate upon the human aspect, of what it takes to accept that gift. "Accepting" is a big package, and it requires complete surrender of the will.

Originally Posted By: miz3

You my friend are creating a hurdle that the Bible does not create.

And you my friend wish to keep arguing, and are determined to keep showboating your private interpretation while you ignore all the other passages.

Originally Posted By: miz3

2. Let's take the texts that you cited:

John 1:9 tells us to "confess" our sins. This is something that God requires us to do "post Justification" when the Holy Spirit convicts us that we are sinful. Those sins have already been paid for and we are asking God to cleanse of these sins.

Hence, we do have to DO something. Repent. Very simple.

Originally Posted By: miz3

You do not understand the processes of Justification and Sanctification. You get them mixed up thus you like many SDA and the SDA Church .org cite texts that have nothing to do with what you say. Part of the problem for this is because you and the SDA Church .org have relied on Ellen White to tell you what the Scripture says and you have placed Ellen White's writings above the Scripture. Thus, you are very confused about the processes of Justification and Sanctification because Ellen White was also confused by these processes.

I understand the process of justification and sanctification more on my worst day than you do on your best day. In fact, I will add that every Adventist in here understands it better than you do. The fact is, it is you who is confused.

And I'll show you how:

Originally Posted By: The Sanctuary Doctrine: Cultic or Biblical? Part 1

Ratzlaff correctly understands that what one believes about salvation has everything to do with how one relates to the Adventist sanctuary doctrine. If one accepts the popular evangelical gospel, which teaches salvation by justification alone, one will have a very serious problem with the investigative judgment doctrine. But if one believes that salvation is accomplished by both justification and sanctification, the investigative judgment is found to be in perfect harmony with the gospel.

Which gospel does the Bible teach?

Repeatedly Ratzlaff talks about the “new covenant gospel of grace” which he claims is contradicted by Ellen White and the Adventist sanctuary doctrine.13 The problem is, Ratzlaff never permits the Bible to define what the new covenant is. He even makes the incredible statement that “in the new covenant the focus is not on law, but on belief in Christ.”14 We will let the Bible speak for itself:

• Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, which My covenant they broke, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord: I will put My law in their inward parts, and write it is their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people (Jeremiah 31:31-33).

The New Testament repeats this new covenant promise in Hebrews 8, verses 8-10. In both of these passages, the writing of God’s law in the human heart is the means whereby the new covenant is established. Similar passages can be found throughout the Bible, in both Old and New Testaments (Deuteronomy 30:14; Psalm 119:11; Romans 10:6-8; 2 Corinthians 3:2, 3).

Ratzlaff claims: “Paul was very bold in his comments toward people who came to the churches he had founded with the additional requirement of law-keeping for salvation.”15 Ratzlaff seems not to have read Paul’s writings very carefully. Paul declares pointedly, in Romans 2:13:

• For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Is Paul then contradicting himself in the next chapter, where he writes that “a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law” (Romans 3:28; see also Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8, 9; 2 Timothy 1:8, 9)? Not at all. Rather, the apostle is talking about two different kinds of works. The second chapter of Romans—often ignored by evangelicals in their study of this epistle—explains in depth the difference between those who make their boast of the law while disobeying its precepts (Romans 2:1-5, 17-23), and those who obey because of “the work of the law written in their hearts” (verse 15). Here we see two different kinds of “works of the law”—the one kind which can’t justify (verses 17-23), the other which are the condition of being justified (verses 13-15).

Here Paul again reflects the teachings of the Old Testament, which declares that confession and the forsaking of sin must precede God’s forgiveness:

• He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy (Proverbs 28:13).

  Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and He will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon (Isaiah 55:7).

  For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses (Matthew 6:14, 15).

If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land (2 Chronicles 7:14).

Ratzlaff declares: “These good works (in sanctification) in no way whatever enter into the foundation of (the Christian’s) acceptance by God for salvation.”16 He also makes the following comment about Adventism’s historic view of justification by faith:

• Most Historic Adventists would also say that they believe in justification by faith. However, in this latter group, their understanding of this doctrine is often limited. They see justification as taking care of their past sins, but are often unclear about it providing present and future righteousness. Justification by faith is often seen as only one half of the process of salvation.

  The other half is sanctification. Often their concept of the gospel—the ground of salvation—includes both. In this way, human works—even if these works are works of faith—are included in sanctification, which is also included in the basis of salvation.… We conclude, therefore, that only the Evangelical Adventists clearly understand justification by faith. In the other two schools of Adventist thought (historic and liberal) there is often some confusion on this most important doctrine.17

Yet the apostle Paul is clear that sanctification and the Spirit’s inward work are part of the means of our salvation:

• Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure (Philippians 2:12, 13).

  God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

  Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost (Titus 3:5).

The Bible nowhere confines the believer’s salvation to the work of justification or forgiveness exclusively, nor does Scripture ever exalt one aspect of Christ’s work as having greater saving value than another. Nor does Scripture ever teach that God’s forgiveness covers any more than the believer’s past sins. We noted above those verses which speak of how confession and the forsaking of sin are prerequisites for God’s forgiveness (Proverbs 28:13; Isaiah 55:7). The New Testament declares: “If any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous” (2 John 2:1). Notice that forgiveness is available if we sin, not when. The Bible knows nothing of any “advance” forgiveness for sins we might commit in the future, nor is there Bible support for the idea of continuous forgiveness on account of inevitable shortcomings. Rather, forgiveness (justification) is provided if we sin (2 John 2:1), the reception of which is conditional on forsaking sin (Proverbs 28:13; Isaiah 55:7). Nowhere does Scripture teach that Christians are continuously covered by Jesus’ righteousness while falling into sin which they supposedly can’t avoid.

Ratzlaff follows the typical line of evangelical theology in claiming that sinless perfection is not a condition of salvation, and that to hold to the necessity of such perfection is to deny the gospel of grace.18 But Ratzlaff fails to understand—as do so many others—that being saved by grace includes both justification and sanctification, as we have already seen from Scripture (2 Thessalonians 2:13). The problem with evangelicals is that when they see phrases in the Bible like “by grace are ye saved” (Ephesians 2:8) and the “gift of righteousness” (Romans 5:17), they think this means salvation by justification only. But the Bible teaches no such doctrine. Being saved by grace through faith includes sanctified obedience (Philippians 2:12, 13; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; Hebrews 5:9), and this sanctification will indeed be perfect before the coming of Christ:

• And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

  But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein, shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? … Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye be found of Him in peace, without spot, and blameless (2 Peter 3:10-12, 14).

  Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. And every man that hath this hope in Him purifieth himself, even as He is pure (2 John 3:2, 3).

Ratzlaff condemns Ellen White for teaching that “the second coming of Christ is tarrying until the character of Christ (which was sinless) is perfectly reproduced in His people.”19 Yet the above Bible verses make it clear that Ellen White borrowed this teaching straight from Scripture.

Ratzlaff condemns Ellen White for teaching that “the fulfillment of God’s promises to us are conditional upon our perfect obedience.”20 But the following Bible passage makes plain where she got this idea:

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God (2 Corinthians 7:1).

Ratzlaff denounces Ellen White’s teaching that “as Christ was perfect in His life, His followers are to be perfect in their lives.”21 But again, the following verses demonstrate the Biblical source of her views:

• For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit (Romans 8:3, 4).

  For even hereunto were ye called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that we should follow in His steps. Who did no sin, neither was guile found in His mouth (1 Peter 2:21, 22).

  For then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin (1 Peter 4:1).

  And in their (the translated saints’) mouth was found no guile, for they are without fault before the throne of God (Revelation 14:5; see also Zephaniah 3:13).

Originally Posted By: miz3

Matthew 19:17 again is talking about the process of Sanctification. That is the process where you with the help of God/Holy Spirit learn to keep the Commandments. In that exchange it becomes clear that in spite of the young man's assertions he did not indeed keep the Commandments. He clearly "coveted" riches a breaking of the Commandment (Exodus chapter 20).

Thus, you cannot use this text to support your position. You do not even understand what is happening in this text.

Revelation 22:14 again you misuse this text. This text has nothing to do with Justification. It clearly is part of the Sanctification process.

John 5:20; John 14:21; 1John 2:3-4; Luke 9:23 all these texts are part of the Sanctification process.

What do you do with the following verse?

"Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord." (Hebrews 12:14)

Please remember miz3, that justification that took effect once on the cross for all men does not go into effect for all men on an individual basis. Each man for himself must partake of this justification by being crucified with Christ. (See Gal 2:20)

Originally Posted By: miz3

You also took Romans 2:13 totally out of context. You should have cited the whole passage and not just plucked a text out of context. So much for your "we use the whole Bible theory". You are clearly a big plucker of texts out of their context.

There was no need for me to quote the entire context of Romans 2, because the context does not deter whatsoever from the immediate context of Romans 2:13. I'll quote the full thing below for you, and you will see that it does not deter whatsoever:

Originally Posted By: Romans 2

2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

2:2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

2:15 Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,

2:18 And knowest [his] will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;

2:19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,

2:20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.

2:21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?

2:22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?

2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?

2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

2:29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.

As we can see, the context of the entire chapter of Romans does nothing to deter from the immediate context of Romans 2:13. None whatsoever. Zip Nada Zilch.

Originally Posted By: miz3

It is very clear that you are just throwing texts, any texts, at your problem to articulate your unBiblical position.

It is also clear that you and what you call the "SDA way" are confused as to what the Bible actually says.

Such confusion bleeds over into your views of the Sancturary/Investigative Judgment/1844.

I have yet to see any solid arguments against the Sanctuary Doctrine and Investigative Judgment of 1844.

This doctrine thus far stands without impeachment, and your continuous assailed attempts to thwart it have proven a tragic failure, time and time again. (and I predict, will continue to do so).

Rarely do you take into account all the scriptures in the Bible. Your selectivity is painful to watch. Never do you admit that the Apostles place the judgment in the future, yet the judgment is recognized as "past" in Revelation, prior to the Second Advent.

1844 fits with the Biblical paradigm perfectly. It is a message from God. It is Divine. It cannot be touched. It cannot be moved. It will STAND firm to the end, and nothing will deter from this fact.

The Evangelical world, and all the SDA bashers out there have failed MISERABLY, and will continue to fail in trying to tear down this SACRED doctrine.

Oh, thou who believest in fantasy and are confused in thy way.

[Lysimachus]

Miz3, do you really have to consume so much space by quoting my ENTIRE post just to respond with one line?

Please, snip the majority of the quote, put the opening phrase in it so that the reader can identify which post you're addressing, and bingo!

It hurts the eyes and feels claustrophobic when you have to be so extreme in quoting the entire length of a long post just to reply with a single line or two. It makes our forum look so unprofessional and cluttery.

[John317]

...Notice that Paul says "having forgiven all OUR trespasses". Did you catch that? He's talking to Christians who have REPENTED, "OUR".

You are not forgiven until you repent.

Excellent point, Lysimachus. God wants to forgive all people, and He demonstrated this by giving His beloved Son to die for us, but people can receive God's forgiveness only through faith and by repentence and confession. It wouldn't be a benefit to anyone for God to forgive people who don't even believe they need forgiveness.

[John317]

NOTE: Peter did not preach that their sins were already forgiven, prior to repentance and faith in Christ. Such a teaching is never found in the preaching of the gospel in the book of Acts.

Originally Posted By: Samie

Never found? Look again.

Notice what He said when face to face with Cornelius:

Acts 10:28

And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

God's telling Peter not to call any man common or unclean had nothing to do with whether a person's sins are forgiven. It has to do with the fact that all men may be saved through faith in Christ. It has to do with Christ's death being for all people-- whether Jew or Gentile-- so that anyone might be saved.

[Dr. Rich]

Not so fast John317, Matt. 12: 30-32 show us that not everyone will be forgiven even IF they try to repent. Also, God does not love everyone as perhaps most believe. God said He did not love Essau and Ex. 20:6 shows us that God picks and chooses who He loves.

Chapter 11 of Revelation proves for fact that there is no such thing as an Invenstigaive Judgment, but that there is a judgment for the 144k and ten virgins before the judgment at the end when the 7th Trumpet blows.

[Lysimachus]

Not so fast John317, Matt. 12: 30-32 show us that not everyone will be forgiven even IF they try to repent. Also, God does not love everyone as perhaps most believe. God said He did not love Essau and Ex. 20:6 shows us that God picks and chooses who He loves.

Chapter 11 of Revelation proves for fact that there is no such thing as an Invenstigaive Judgment, but that there is a judgment for the 144k and ten virgins before the judgment at the end when the 7th Trumpet blows.

Dr. Rich, Revelation 11 does not disprove the Investigative Judgment whatsoever. It's just the way you choose to interpret it. We do not believe the 7 trumpets are future, but represent seven stages through history, just like the 7 churches and 7 seals. It is inconsistent to say the 7 trumpets are all future, but the 7 churches are through 7 stages of church history. If the 7 trumpets were taken literally, just the first couple trumpets would leave the earth depopulated, so it is unrealistic. The 7 last plagues are the only exception to this rule, and are future, for which our pioneers have done a sound job at proving Biblically.

[John317]

Not so fast John317, Matt. 12: 30-32 show us that not everyone will be forgiven even IF they try to repent.

I agree with you on this point. God ultimately forgives the sins of only the truly repentent-- that is, those who don't repent of their repentence. This, in fact, is demonstrated in the Investigative Judgment. The sins of people who repent are covered by the blood of Christ, but if our lives show that we want our sins back, and that we weren't genuinely repentent, God won't force us to give them up.

There is a difference between our sins being covered and our sins being blotted out.

Are our sins immediately blotted out when we repent?

Does anyone believe that God blotted out all sins at the cross?

[John317]

The fact that men are now capable of repenting is proof enough he had been previously made alive and therefore already forgiven.

Colossians 2:13 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses

God's Spirit makes it possible for everyone to repent but this is no evidence that God has already forgiven everyone's sins. If he forgave everyone's sins, He would be unjust to destroy anyone, yet the Bible is clear that many people will be destroyed because of their sins.

Again, it's important to notice that Col. 2: 13 is addressed to believers, whose sins are forgiven.

Paul is not talking to unbelievers, who are unrepentent and have no faith in Christ.

Also, notice that Paul does not say that God has already forgiven us of all the sins we will ever commit during our lifetime.

The Bible's instructions to believers is that we need to repent and make confession of our sins:

1 John 1:9-10

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Notice that the forgiveness of our sins is future.

Jesus Himself taught His followers to pray:

Matthew 6:12, 14, 15--

"and forgive us our debts,

as we also have forgiven our debtors.

...For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

Thus we are to continue to ask for forgiveness of our sins and mistakes. This would not be the case if all of our future sins were already forgiven.

[John317]

... when you take only the OT and the words of Jesus given to us by His eyewitnesses, then, and only then will you have unity and the real truth concerning salvation and judgment. Try it and find out what the real truth is regarding this issue.

This discussion will include all of the New Testament Scriptures as well as all of the Hebrew Scriptures. We won't get sidetracked with arguments about the validity of the New Testament. Kindly leave those arguments for another discussion devoted to that topic.

[John317]

I have yet to see any solid arguments against the Sanctuary Doctrine and Investigative Judgment of 1844.

This doctrine thus far stands without impeachment, and your continuous assailed attempts to thwart it have proven a tragic failure, time and time again. (and I predict, will continue to do so).

Rarely do you take into account all the scriptures in the Bible. Your selectivity is painful to watch. Never do you admit that the Apostles place the judgment in the future, yet the judgment is recognized as "past" in Revelation, prior to the Second Advent.

Excellent points, Lysimachus. I believe this will become even clearer as we continue this discussion and show the Bible evidence. We've only just begun.

[John317]

Chapter 11 of Revelation proves for fact that there is no such thing as an Invenstigaive Judgment, but that there is a judgment for the 144k and ten virgins before the judgment at the end when the 7th Trumpet blows.

Is this the main reason you reject the Investigative Judgment? If not, what are your primary objections to it?

[John317]

...

The Sanctuary Doctrine: Cultic or Biblical?

Part 1: http://www.greatcontroversy.org/gco/rar/pau-sdcb1.php

Part 2: http://www.greatcontroversy.org/gco/rar/pau-sdcb2.php

Part 3: http://www.greatcontroversy.org/gco/rar/pau-sdcb3.php

Thank you for posting these excellent links on the topic, Lysimachus. They're well worth posting again. I hope everyone reads them and considers the evidence they offer.