The Case For the Investigative Judgment

[John317]

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The Sanctuary Doctrine: Cultic or Biblical?

Part 1: http://www.greatcontroversy.org/gco/rar/pau-sdcb1.php

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Originally Posted By: Kevin Paulson

...If one accepts the popular evangelical gospel, which teaches salvation by justification alone, one will have a very serious problem with the investigative judgment doctrine. But if one believes that salvation is accomplished by both justification and sanctification, the investigative judgment is found to be in perfect harmony with the gospel.

Does anyone on this discussion disagree with Kevin's statement?

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: John3:17

NOTE: Peter did not preach that their sins were already forgiven, prior to repentance and faith in Christ. Such a teaching is never found in the preaching of the gospel in the book of Acts.

Originally Posted By: Samie

Never found? Look again.

Notice what He said when face to face with Cornelius:

Acts 10:28

And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

God's telling Peter not to call any man common or unclean had nothing to do with whether a person's sins are forgiven. It has to do with the fact that all men may be saved through faith in Christ. It has to do with Christ's death being for all people-- whether Jew or Gentile-- so that anyone might be saved.

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

... when you take only the OT and the words of Jesus given to us by His eyewitnesses, then, and only then will you have unity and the real truth concerning salvation and judgment. Try it and find out what the real truth is regarding this issue.

This discussion will include all of the New Testament Scriptures as well as all of the Hebrew Scriptures. We won't get sidetracked with arguments about the validity of the New Testament. Kindly leave those arguments for another discussion devoted to that topic.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

...Notice that Paul says "having forgiven all OUR trespasses". Did you catch that? He's talking to Christians who have REPENTED, "OUR".

You are not forgiven until you repent.

Excellent point, Lysimachus. God wants to forgive all people, and He demonstrated this by giving His beloved Son to die for us, but people can receive God's forgiveness only through faith and by repentence and confession. It wouldn't be a benefit to anyone for God to forgive people who don't even believe they need forgiveness.

John317 once again you demonstrate that you think the Plan of Salvation (and by extension everything else in the Bible) is about the "human entity".

This is because you think in "human centric" terms and NOT IN GOD CENTRIC TERMS.

That is the fallacy of your theology. I told you this before but here is a prime example as exposed by the "highlighted" portion above.

Like everything else in the Bible the Plan of Salvation is "about God!" that is God centric thinking. It is about God, His Glory, His Greatness, His Mercy, His Justice, etc. etc. all as God defines these terms (not the way humans define these terms).

The FACT that we humans benefit from God seeking His Own is a bonus for us. Nothing is about us.

For example:

"Human Centric" thinkers think the Creation of the Earth (other created beings like angels) and humans was about them for various reasons including but not limited to: God needed something to interact with as if God was lonely, God need to create to demonstrate to demonstrate that God believed in freedom because to not create (like not creating satan) would show arbitrariness on the part of God, etc. etc.

Even though God was the only Existent One He "HAD" to create satan, Adam and Eve or it would have been a sin for Him not to create these entities knowing that they would "sin" even though God would have been the only One who knew that such a "possibility would exist". Thus, God had "NO CHOICE" but to create satan and Adam & Eve.

Amazing that "Human Centric" thinkers give God "NO CHOICE" but they give "human beings" the full latitude of "CHOICE".

Thus, "human centric" thinkers are always putting God lower than the human entity. They lift the CREATURE above the CREATOR.

Human centric thinkers real god is their "freedom of choice" as "independent" beings apart from God. Such is the sin of "Idolatry" (see Genesis chapter twenty).

Doesn't such thinking sound a whole lot like what the "serpent" told Eve in the Garden; "you will be like gods". In other words you will like God have the "freedom of choice" to do whatever your heart desires.

Human centric thinkers do not always realize the dangerous ground upon which they stand. They think they are espousing the "truth" when in FACT they are espousing satan's lie in the Garden of Eden.

You see John317 the Plan of Salvation, like everything else, is for the Benefit of God. It exists to demonstrate the Greatness of God. Like Romans chapter nine says, God did the things He did in order to demonstrate His Great Mercy to us humans.

We humans had nothing to do with it. God did it all.

Such assertions like I just made drive the Human Centric thinkers crazy because it robs them of their "control". The Human Centric thinker wants to always be in "control". God is standing by (in the Human Centric mind) waiting for the human entity to "exercise their control" over the situation.

In human centric thinking God "HAD TO":

1. Create or violate His own law of "freedom".

2. Save humans or be accused of abandoning His creation as a failure project (sullying God's Perfection as a being).

3. Answer satan's (undocumented in the Bible) accusations that God is not about "freedom". In addition God cannot keep His own Law.

Thus, satan and the human entity are given all the "freedom" while God is "trapped" and must (forced to, does not have freedom of choice) do something to alleviate these pressures brought on by a fully free creation (satan, Adam & Eve, all humans).

The Bible does not teach the Human Centric view of things.

The Bible teaches the God Centric view of things. Where God has the fullness of Freedom to do as He CHOOSES and the creation is the one that is trapped, forced to, does not have freedom of choice.

The only "option" open to the human entity is REJECTION OF GOD. That is it.

John317 you and other "human centric" thinkers have flipped everything on its head which is why you always analyze the Scriptures the wrong way.

This is typical since the human entity is ridden with sin and as such cannot really see things correctly. This is why the human entity needs God/Holy Spirit to teach the human entity what the TRUTH actually is.

This is why relying one human sources for your interpretation of Scripture leads you the wrong way. For example: when you cite 75 expositors that believe the way you do in the Investigative Judgment as a reason for its truth should send alarm bells off that this could be flawed. Why because these same 75 expositors are also "human centric" in their views.

Anything that elevates the "human anything" above God is human centric. Anything that gives "human anything" all the options and God no options is human centric. Human centric makes God the slave and the human entity the master.

GOD CENTRIC is where God has unbounded options and the human entity has one or fewer options. God is the Master with unbounded freedom and the human entity is bound tight in slavery and has no freedom.

There are ONLY TWO VIEWS OF LIFE:

1. God Centric view.

2. human centric view.

Everything but everything falls under one of these two views.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: Samie

The fact that men are now capable of repenting is proof enough he had been previously made alive and therefore already forgiven.

Colossians 2:13 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses

God's Spirit makes it possible for everyone to repent but this is no evidence that God has already forgiven everyone's sins. If he forgave everyone's sins, He would be unjust to destroy anyone, yet the Bible is clear that many people will be destroyed because of their sins.

Amen! Preach it!

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

It seems to me that the most succinct example of "Investigative Judgment" is found in Dan 7 - where see that the saints are the subject of the judgment, that it consists of a review of the content in "books" in a courtroom context and that it completes before the 2nd coming and after the division of the Roman empire.

Judgment "passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22 is a judgment involving saints. And as Dan 7 points out - this all happens before the 2nd coming and after the fall of the Roman empire.

Another text - 2Cor 5:10 shows us that the future judgment that includes the saints - is a judgment based on deeds "we must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ to given an account for the deeds done in the body whether good or evil".

Then of course we have Rom 2:13-16 where it is not the "hearers of the law of God that are just before God but the doers of the Law will be justified... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge".

Hence the "everlasting gospel" Rev 14:6 message at the heart of the Seventh-day Adventist mission - "fear God and give glory to Him for the hour of His judgment HAS come".Rev 14:7

in Christ,

Bob

[John317]

John317 once again you demonstrate that you think the Plan of Salvation (and by extension everything else in the Bible) is about the "human entity".

This is because you think in "human centric" terms and NOT IN GOD CENTRIC TERMS.

That is the fallacy of your theology. I told you this before but here is a prime example as exposed by the "highlighted" portion above.

... 1. God Centric view.

2. human centric view.

Everything but everything falls under one of these two views.

All you've done here is set up a "straw man" argument, completely misrepresenting my position. Your post attributes to me many ideas that I don't accept or believe.

It's true-- as John 3: 16-17 show-- that the plan of salvation is about God's plan to save human beings, but it's also much more than that. At bottom, the plan of salvation is about God's character and the entire universe, because it demonstrates who He is and what kind of God He is.

Here are some Bible verses which prove this:

Rev. 15:3-4

And they sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying,

"Great and amazing are your deeds,

O Lord God the Almighty!

Just and true are your ways,

O King of the nations!

[4] Who will not fear, O Lord,

and glorify your name?

For you alone are holy.

All nations will come

and worship you,

for your righteous acts have been revealed."

Rev. 16:5-7

And I heard the angel in charge of the waters say,

"Just are you, O Holy One, who is and who was,

for you brought these judgments.

[6] For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets,

and you have given them blood to drink.

It is what they deserve!"

[7] And I heard the altar saying,

"Yes, Lord God the Almighty,

true and just are your judgments!"

Rev. 4:11

"Worthy are you, our Lord and God,

to receive glory and honor and power,

for you created all things,

and by your will they existed and were created."

Rev. 5:13-14

And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!" [14] And the four living creatures said, "Amen!" and the elders fell down and worshiped.

The Investigative Judgment is God-Centric, as we will see as we continue our study. The SDA view of the Investigative Judgment deals directly with the above verses, showing that God is worthy to receive glory and honor and power.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

John317 once again you demonstrate that you think the Plan of Salvation (and by extension everything else in the Bible) is about the "human entity".

This is because you think in "human centric" terms and NOT IN GOD CENTRIC TERMS.

That is the fallacy of your theology. I told you this before but here is a prime example as exposed by the "highlighted" portion above.

... 1. God Centric view.

2. human centric view.

Everything but everything falls under one of these two views.

All you've done here is set up a "straw man" argument, completely misrepresenting my position. Your post attributes to me many ideas that I don't accept or believe.

It's true-- as John 3: 16-17 show-- that the plan of salvation is about God's plan to save human beings, but it's also much more than that. At bottom, the plan of salvation is about God's character and the entire universe, because it demonstrates who He is and what kind of God He is.

Here are some Bible verses which prove this:

Rev. 15:3-4

And they sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying,

"Great and amazing are your deeds,

O Lord God the Almighty!

Just and true are your ways,

O King of the nations!

[4] Who will not fear, O Lord,

and glorify your name?

For you alone are holy.

All nations will come

and worship you,

for your righteous acts have been revealed."

Rev. 16:5-7

And I heard the angel in charge of the waters say,

"Just are you, O Holy One, who is and who was,

for you brought these judgments.

[6] For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets,

and you have given them blood to drink.

It is what they deserve!"

[7] And I heard the altar saying,

"Yes, Lord God the Almighty,

true and just are your judgments!"

Rev. 4:11

"Worthy are you, our Lord and God,

to receive glory and honor and power,

for you created all things,

and by your will they existed and were created."

Rev. 5:13-14

And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!" [14] And the four living creatures said, "Amen!" and the elders fell down and worshiped.

The Investigative Judgment is God-Centric, as we will see as we continue our study. The SDA view of the Investigative Judgment deals directly with the above verses, showing that God is worthy to receive glory and honor and power.

We judge your words not your claims.

[miz3]

It's true-- as John 3: 16-17 show-- that the plan of salvation is about God's plan to save human beings, but it's also much more than that. At bottom, the plan of salvation is about God's character and the entire universe, because it demonstrates who He is and what kind of God He is.

Once again you make the mistake by being "human centric" (see highlight above).

Also using your next sentence to try and make it look like you are God Centric does not work.

The FACT is John317 your main thrusts are indeed "human centric" and that this "human centricity" is the basis of all your theology and Bible interpretations.

The Plan of Salvation was/is God made in order as Paul says (see Romans chapter nine) to show God's Great Mercy. In addition as the text you cited above John chapter three says God demonstrates His Great Love.

The Plan of Salvation also demonstrates that God does what He wants and that the Plan of Salvation had nothing but nothing to do with what the creation elements did.

God did not institute the Plan of Salvation because God was trapped, God was forced to demonstrate His Love, His Mercy, etc. etc. because of satan's accusations. God did not institute the Plan of Salvation to meet some emergency, and/or in order to "REACT" to anything the creation perpetrated.

Such things are nothing but "human centric" because it creates a "reactive god" who is not in "control" of anything.

The God of the Bible is always but always in CONTROL and further the God of the Bible is always ACTIVE and is never ever REACTIVE.

human centric = reactive god, not in control, defensive, having to prove he is god.

God Centric = active God, in total control, offensive, does not have to prove He is God because He actually is God.

[miz3]

Rev. 15:3-4

And they sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying,

"Great and amazing are your deeds,

O Lord God the Almighty!

Just and true are your ways,

O King of the nations!

[4] Who will not fear, O Lord,

and glorify your name?

For you alone are holy.

All nations will come

and worship you,

for your righteous acts have been revealed."

Rev. 16:5-7

And I heard the angel in charge of the waters say,

"Just are you, O Holy One, who is and who was,

for you brought these judgments.

[6] For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets,

and you have given them blood to drink.

It is what they deserve!"

[7] And I heard the altar saying,

"Yes, Lord God the Almighty,

true and just are your judgments!"

Rev. 4:11

"Worthy are you, our Lord and God,

to receive glory and honor and power,

for you created all things,

and by your will they existed and were created."

Rev. 5:13-14

And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!" [14] And the four living creatures said, "Amen!" and the elders fell down and worshiped.

Let us look at the texts you cite to see whose point they prove.

1. Revelation chapter fifteen. Look at the Words the saints speak.

"Great and amazing are your deeds".

"just and true are your ways".

"King of the nations".

"Who will not fear you".

"Who will not glorify your Name."

"You (God)[supplied] alone are holy".

"the nations will come and worship you".

"your righteous acts have been revealed".

Do these Biblical Words sound "reactive" or "active" to you?

This sounds like a God Centric God as opposed to your "human centric" view of God.

2. Revelation chapter sixteen.

"Just are you holy one".

"Who is, and who was".

"you brought these judgments".

"you have given them blood to drink".

"true and just are your judgments".

Again this sounds God Centric as opposed to your "human centric" views of God.

God is active and not as your "human centric view" makes god as reactive.

Notice also who brings about the Judgment and who instigates the Judgment........ It is God and God alone. There are no humans who "judge God" instead it is all about God being the Judge and God making the Judgments.

There is not even a scintilla of humans being the "center" of anything. It is all about God and what God does not what humans have done.

You see nowhere that it is humans who have repented; Humans that "chose" God; Humans that had faith; etc. etc.

It is all God. So far these texts you cite make my point and destroy you "human centric points".

3. Revelation chapter four.

"Worthy are you, our Lord and God to receive Glory and Honor and Power".

"you [God] created all things".

"by your will they existed and were created".

Once again these are God Centric Words as opposed to your "human centric view" of God.

Notice God receives the Glory, the Honor, the Power. Nothing here about the Plan of Salvation being for humans. It is all about being for God and Himself.

Notice that it is God who creates. Not the "reactive" god you create. God is ACTIVE.

Third point is underlined, which states that it is God's Will that satan, humans, angels, and everything was Created by God.

God did not create in order to foster "human freedom", God did not create in order to show that He is "fair", God did not create because He was "trapped", etc. etc. etc.

Notice also that it is God who is worthy, nothing but nothing about humans being shown to be worthy.

The Plan of Salvation is not to show that humans are worthy of anything. God is "showing off" how He is everything about the Plan of Salvation.

God is just "using humans" like one would use a "tool" to demonstrate his greatness. It is not about the "tool", it is about the One who uses the "tool".

Humans are nothing but "tools" used by God to demonstrate God.

4. Revelation chapter five.

"the whole creation speaks blessing, honor, and glory, and might forever and forever".

Notice again it is not about the "human anything". It is all about God.

Thank you John317 these are marvelous texts that demonstrate that my God Centric view of Salvation is correct.

It also demonstrates that your "human centric view" of God and the Plan of Salvation are NOT BIBLICAL in any way shape or form.

The Plan of Salvation like everything else is about God and God alone. It is not about humans as you assert.

In addition your view of the Investigative Judgment is all about satan's thoughts, humans doubts, angelic doubts and is done by a "reactive god" in order to defend himself or the whole would never ever "trust this reactive god".

Surely against the texts you cited you can see how silly your unBiblical doctrine of the Investigative Judgment is? Such an unBiblical doctrine only satisfies the "human centric" and does nothing but nothing in showing us the God of the texts you cited above.

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: John3:17

NOTE: Peter did not preach that their sins were already forgiven, prior to repentance and faith in Christ. Such a teaching is never found in the preaching of the gospel in the book of Acts.

Originally Posted By: Samie

Never found? Look again.

Notice what He said when face to face with Cornelius:

Acts 10:28

And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

God's telling Peter not to call any man common or unclean had nothing to do with whether a person's sins are forgiven. It has to do with the fact that all men may be saved through faith in Christ. It has to do with Christ's death being for all people-- whether Jew or Gentile-- so that anyone might be saved.

The Bible seems not to agree with your observation, John. It is sin that makes us unclean in God's sight:

Psalm 51:1 Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions. Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.

Unless forgiven, we are unclean.

Prior to forgiveness, man is dead in sin (Eph 2:1; Col 2:13), The reason why Christ came to give the world life (John 6:33) is because it is dead otherwise He would not have given it life.

KJV Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins

KJV Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses

Clearly, it was while we were still dead in sin when God made us alive. Did He wait for us to repent first before forgiving us? NO. That would be waiting for NOTHING. He knows we cannot, being yet dead.

Those who cannot accept what Scriptures say and instead insist repentance first before forgiveness may do well to explain how the DEAD can REPENT.

All had been forgiven; all had been saved and are being saved from sin, with current sins committed not imputed against us (2 Cor 5:18,19). But only overcomers (Rom12:21; Rev 3:5) will be ultimately saved (Matt 24:13) and inherit life eternal (Rom 2:5-11).

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: John317

God's telling Peter not to call any man common or unclean had nothing to do with whether a person's sins are forgiven. It has to do with the fact that all men may be saved through faith in Christ. It has to do with Christ's death being for all people-- whether Jew or Gentile-- so that anyone might be saved.

The Bible seems not to agree with your observation, John. It is sin that makes us unclean in God's sight:

Psalm 51:1 Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions. Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.

Unless forgiven, we are unclean.

Prior to forgiveness, man is dead in sin (Eph 2:1; Col 2:13), The reason why Christ came to give the world life (John 6:33) is because it is dead otherwise He would not have given it life.

KJV Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins

KJV Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses

Clearly, it was while we were still dead in sin when God made us alive. Did He wait for us to repent first before forgiving us? NO. That would be waiting for NOTHING. He knows we cannot, being yet dead.

Those who cannot accept what Scriptures say and instead insist repentance first before forgiveness may do well to explain how the DEAD can REPENT.

All had been forgiven; all had been saved and are being saved from sin, with current sins committed not imputed against us (2 Cor 5:18,19). But only overcomers (Rom12:21; Rev 3:5) will be ultimately saved (Matt 24:13) and inherit life eternal (Rom 2:5-11).

[Dr. Rich]

...If one accepts the popular evangelical gospel, which teaches salvation by justification alone, one will have a very serious problem with the investigative judgment doctrine. But if one believes that salvation is accomplished by both justification and sanctification, the investigative judgment is found to be in perfect harmony with the gospel.

Does anyone on this discussion disagree with Kevin's statement?

[John317]

God's telling Peter not to call any man common or unclean had nothing to do with whether a person's sins are forgiven. It has to do with the fact that all men may be saved through faith in Christ. It has to do with Christ's death being for all people-- whether Jew or Gentile-- so that anyone might be saved.

Originally Posted By: Samie

The Bible seems not to agree with your observation, John. It is sin that makes us unclean in God's sight.

It had nothing to do with the Gentiles being either sinful or forgiven. Even before the death of Christ, the Gentiles weren't any more unclean than the Jews.

The point is that Peter was wrong about the Gentiles being considered "unclean" by God. God didn't consider Gentiles unclean any more than He considered the Jews unclean. Peter didn't understand this until God gave him the vision.

[John317]

Here is my take-not saying it is correct, but Justification takes place when one repents and asks the victims and God for foregivness and seeks the truth while practicing what truth he knows. If this person dies without finding and knowing the full truth on how salvation works while practicing what truth he knows, then this person is saved by justification.

However, if this person sins and practices a lie and gives up his search for truth, and about face so to speak, then justification will not save him as he has made the choice to sin and keep on sinning.

....Therefore, the IJ as EGW thought, was and is not correct.

I'm in fundamental agreement with you about Justification.

But I don't understand how you arrived at the conclusion that the Investigative Judgment as EGW taught it is not correct.

One of the purposes of the Investigative Judgment is to distinguish between those who are Christ's true followers and those who merely made a claim to be His followers but who "made the choice to sin and keep on sinning."

[John317]

...

Let us look at the texts you cite to see whose point they prove.

1. Revelation chapter fifteen. Look at the Words the saints speak.

"Great and amazing are your deeds".

"just and true are your ways".

"King of the nations".

"Who will not fear you".

"Who will not glorify your Name."

"You (God)[supplied] alone are holy".

"the nations will come and worship you".

"your righteous acts have been revealed".

This sounds like a God Centric God as opposed to your "human centric" view of God.

2. Revelation chapter sixteen.

"Just are you holy one".

"Who is, and who was".

"you brought these judgments".

"you have given them blood to drink".

"true and just are your judgments".

Again this sounds God Centric as opposed to your "human centric" views of God.

....Thank you John317 these are marvelous texts that demonstrate that my God Centric view of Salvation is correct.

It also demonstrates that your "human centric view" of God and the Plan of Salvation are NOT BIBLICAL in any way shape or form.

I disagree with, and reject, your categories of "God Centric" and "human centric".

As I said, you have set up a "straw man" argument which doesn't represent the views I'm taking.

The Investigative Judgment is not "human centric".

The Investigative Judgment is actually the foundation of the "marvelous texts" you refer to. Those statements in the book of Revelation are the result of the Investigative Judgment.

We're actually in agreement that the verses you've quoted are not human centric. I quoted those verses in order to show that the Investigative Judgment is fundamentally about God.

It leads the whole universe to the conclusion that God is just and worthy to be worshipped.

[Dr. Rich]

While it would seem that the dream that Peter alegedly had was to show him that there was no difference between Jews and Gentiles, Peter must have remembered what Jesus said as found in Matthew 15:24.

However, since there really is no way of knowing if Pater had this dream or not as Peter never said anything about it later and Luke got this information third hand at best, it seems like a moot point because Jesus told the disciples to go to everyone--all nations, not just to the Jews, making them disciples, baptizing them and teaching them to observe (do something) all that Jesus commanded them. (Matthew 28:19-20)

Also, Jesus made it clear to His disciples that the KOH had been taken away from the Jews and would be given to another nation (Matthew 21:43), so why would Peter even consider that the Jews were favored by God anymore?

Another thing to remember is that Peter heard Jesus say that it was NOT what went into your mouth that defield them, but what came out of their mouth. Peter then fully knew that at that time, there was no longer any difference beween clean and unclean animals. After all, Peter surely had to have been with Jesus when Jesus ate food prepared by Gentiles and the food must have been considered unclean by the Jewish standards because of what they said about this and of course John 12:20-26 shows that Jesus had already told them that it didn't matter anymore if one was a Jew or Gentile, as long as they honestly and completely repent, obey and serve Jesus.

[John317]

...

Another thing to remember is that Peter heard Jesus say that it was NOT what went into your mouth that defield them, but what came out of their mouth. Peter then fully knew that at that time, there was no longer any difference beween clean and unclean animals. ...

Jesus' point in Mark 7: 15-19 was not that there is no longer any difference between clean and unclean animals. Jesus was answering the question posed to him in Mark 7: 5:

And the Pharisees and the scribes asked him, "Why do your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat with defiled hands?"

Jesus' answer was that people aren't defiled by not washing the hands like the Jews of that time did before eating. What defiles a person is his thoughts and his words because they show what's in his heart.

Mark 7:19

Because it [the food] enters not into his heart, but into the belly, and goes out into the sewer, [thus] purifying all foods.

Is there any record of the followers of Jesus' eating unclean animals, such as pigs? Notice that Peter in Acts 10: 14 still understands that some animals are not fit to eat. This shows that the disciples didn't understand Jesus to be saying that there was no longer any difference between unclean and clean animals.

It's important to remember that the difference between clean and unclean animals occurs in the Bible before the Flood, long before the existence of the first Jew. See Genesis 7: 2,8.

[John317]

While it would seem that the dream that Peter alegedly had was to show him that there was no difference between Jews and Gentiles, Peter must have remembered what Jesus said as found in Matthew 15:24.

Matthew 15:24

He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

What do you believe Peter must have understood from this statement by Jesus?

[Dr. Rich]

John, while I do see your opinion, it is not the point I was makeing. Did Jesus say what He said--or not? Regardless of what you or anyone else thinks, what Jesus said was the truth! It is NOT what goes into the mouth that defiles anyone! Period--case closed!

Also, is being "defiled" or "unclean" the same as commiting a sin? If so, then simply petting a horse, dog or cat would be the same thing as eating pigs meat. (See Lev. 11:24-35 but look at verse 26. Anyone riding a horse would then be unclean--and Jesus rode an unclean animal, yet He did not sin.

As to the 'dream' that Peter allegedly had and told to us by Luke, it is just that, hearsay evidence at best. Interestingly though, while I have serious doubts that this happened, it did show us clearly that Peter was to go to the Gentiles--just the opposite as what Saul/Paul preached. Get my point?

[John317]

... there really is no way of knowing if Pater had this dream or not as Peter never said anything about it later and Luke got this information third hand at best....

How do you know this? How do you know that Luke didn't talk to Peter about it?

The books Luke wrote show that he was a very reliable authority and that he did his research well. Luke indicates that he talked directly to the eyewitnesses:

Luke 1:1-4

Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile a narrative of the things that have been accomplished among us, [2] just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word have delivered them to us, [3] it seemed good to me also, having followed all things closely for some time past, to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, [4] that you may have certainty concerning the things you have been taught.

[Dr. Rich]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

While it would seem that the dream that Peter alegedly had was to show him that there was no difference between Jews and Gentiles, Peter must have remembered what Jesus said as found in Matthew 15:24.

Matthew 15:24

He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

What do you believe Peter must have understood from this statement by Jesus?

That all of the Jews (Israel) were lost because they failed to do as found in Daniel 9:24.

[John317]

Also, is being "defiled" or "unclean" the same as commiting a sin? If so, then simply petting a horse, dog or cat would be the same thing as eating pigs meat. (See Lev. 11:24-35 but look at verse 26. Anyone riding a horse would then be unclean--and Jesus rode an unclean animal, yet He did not sin.

The Bible doesn't say that riding a horse is sinful. You are misunderstanding the Scriptures.

There's a difference between being ritually unclean from touching unclean animals and eating unclean animals. It was never a sin to touch unclean animals.

[Dr. Rich]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

... there really is no way of knowing if Pater had this dream or not as Peter never said anything about it later and Luke got this information third hand at best....

How do you know this? How do you know that Luke didn't talk to Peter about it?

The books Luke wrote show that he was a very reliable authority and that he did his research well. Luke indicates that he talked directly to the eyewitnesses:

Luke 1:1-4

Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile a narrative of the things that have been accomplished among us, [2] just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word have delivered them to us, [3] it seemed good to me also, having followed all things closely for some time past, to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, [4] that you may have certainty concerning the things you have been taught.

Rev. 2:2 "...that you cannot endure evil men, and you put to the test those who call[ed] themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false." Luke and Paul called themsleves apostles.

Read Luke 1:1-3. Never did Luke say he talked directly to the eyewitnesses.

Acts 1:4--is complely false as Jesus never said anything about not leaving Jerusalem! See Matt. 28:10 and all of John 21.

[John317]

Matthew 15:24

He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

What do you believe Peter must have understood from this statement by Jesus?

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

That all of the Jews (Israel) were lost because they failed to do as found in Daniel 9:24.

But Jesus said that He was sent only to the Israelites. Wouldn't Peter have understood that the gospel was to go first of all to the Israelites?

Consider Matt. 10: 5,6--

These twelve Jesus sent out, instructing them, "Go nowhere among the Gentiles and enter no town of the Samaritans, [6] but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."