Birth Control, Abortion & Religious Liberty

[Dr. Shane]

And you just shredded any credibility you may have had by posting this lie.

I think Nic's credibility was lost long before he posted in this thread. Let's not allow him to distract us.

My original point in this thread was to outline the danger the Extreme Left poses to religious liberty. For many decades we have been aware of the potential danger the Religious Right poses to religious liberty. Many Adventists have felt that voting for liberals was a safe move. However now the extremist liberals are showing that they too can give the lamb-like beast a voice like a dragon. The agenda the Radical Right has is much different from the agenda of the Extreme Left. However what both extremes have in common is their desire to force their worldview on others. When placed in a position of civil authority, both extremes are willing to use the strong hand of government to force their will on others even if it means trampling on religious liberty.

[Bravus]

I still disagree that this is in any way an attack on religious liberty. It is the employers who are seeking to dictate to their employees that are attacking religious liberty.

In an ideal world, employers would *not* have control over employees' healthcare.

[olger]

So you cannot see the line of control between Obamacare and demanding a church to dispense state mandated birth-control..?

Them are some really dark glasses, David.

[Dr. Shane]

I can't see how anyone can see this as anything other than a violation of religious liberty. This is the first thing the Obama Administration has done that has really made me think we would have been better off with McCain.

I agree that this has come about because of Obama's failed leadership. If Obama was a decent leader he could have easily gotten a single-payer system passed so that everyone would have a payroll deduction taken from their paycheck (like Social Security) and the government would run an insurance program to pay the healthcare costs. But his failed leadership has left us with this terrible bill that is mandating employers to insure employees. If that cannot be done without violating religious liberty, then the bill needs to be re-written or found unconstitutional. Religious liberty is too precious to sacrifice for healthcare insurance reform.

[Dr. Shane]

It is the employers who are seeking to dictate to their employees that are attacking religious liberty.

I am really not sure how a person arrives at this conclusion.

The employer advertises they have a job opening. A person applies for the job and is told what the compensation package is. The prospective employee is told the employer is a church which believe birth control and sterilization are sinful and therefore does not provide any healthcare benefits which include or encourage the use of what they believe to be sinful products or procedures. The prospective employee then has the right to accept the position or look elsewhere. If they accept the position, they still have the right to purchase birth control or sterilization services at their own expense.

[Neil D]

So you cannot see the line of control between Obamacare and demanding a church to dispense state mandated birth-control..?

Are we talking about "birth control" or "reproductive rights"?

My understanding is that currently, 77% of catholic institutions are offering "birth control" under "reproductive rights"....And have NO PROBLEMS over theology over it...

What are your concerns over this issue?

[Neil D]

The employer advertises they have a job opening. A person applies for the job and is told what the compensation package is. The prospective employee is told the employer is a church which believe birth control and sterilization are sinful and therefore does not provide any healthcare benefits which include or encourage the use of what they believe to be sinful products or procedures. The prospective employee then has the right to accept the position or look elsewhere. If they accept the position, they still have the right to purchase birth control or sterilization services at their own expense.

So, let me rephrase this....

The employer is telling the employee that the corporation has the right to control reproduction in it's employee's familys?

I'm sorry, but that is not a religious liberty issue in the sense that it affects the choice of the employee..it's a religious liberty issue in the sense that the corporation is controling the family...not the employee...

[Nic Samojluk]

Bravus Wrote:

“And you just shredded any credibility you may have had by posting this lie.”

You are probably not following the news. There are currently several legal challenges to Obamas’ right to be permitted to participate in the next election. The evidence against Obama’s right to be in the oval office have been mounting.

I am not saying that this is true or false, but why would so many people invest so much effort and so much money to fight this? Besides, why would he apply for admission to a school as a foreign-born individual; or why would he spend over a million dollars for his legal defense when he could produce the documentation which has been requested from him?

[bonnie]

So, let me rephrase this....

The employer is telling the employee that the corporation has the right to control reproduction in it's employee's familys?

I'm sorry, but that is not a religious liberty issue in the sense that it affects the choice of the employee..it's a religious liberty issue in the sense that the corporation is controling the family...not the employee...

Real novel and outdated idea.How about the employee taking control of their families reproduction. You know,like go to the drugstore and pick up your prescription and pay for it.Millions of us have done that

[bonnie]

Are we talking about "birth control" or "reproductive rights"?

My understanding is that currently, 77% of catholic institutions are offering "birth control" under "reproductive rights"....And have NO PROBLEMS over theology over it...

What are your concerns over this issue?

Force by the government in something they have no authority over.Now we can all pay thru increased premiumns for Obama's "free gift"

[Nic Samojluk]

Olger,

Are you oblivious to the fact that Samoa has altered its calendar. This means that Samoans went to sleep on Thursday evening and when they woke up next morning, it was officially Saturday morning instead of Friday AM. This means that now some Adventists are worshipping on the new calendar’s Saturday while others on Sunday.

Of course, this is not the first time Samoans have changed their calendar. They are next to the International Dateline. Every time you cross the line you have to either add or subtract a day of the week. As you can see, Samoa is a great place for Adventists to move to avoid the predicted persecution for keeping the Sabbath.

[Nic Samojluk]

Olger,

You might have also missed the following. There is a long joke on the Internet showing Obama seated in the Oval Office with the picture of our Constitution going through the shredder in front of his desk.

The irony is designed to emphasize the belief that that he was not a U.S. born citizen nor the son of U.S. born citizens, and the fact that he is imposing his Obamacare on the country, which some believe is unconstitutional.

[Neil D]

Bravus Wrote:

“And you just shredded any credibility you may have had by posting this lie.”

You are probably not following the news. There are currently several legal challenges to Obamas’ right to be permitted to participate in the next election. The evidence against Obama’s right to be in the oval office have been mounting.

I am not saying that this is true or false, but why would so many people invest so much effort and so much money to fight this? Besides, why would he apply for admission to a school as a foreign-born individual; or why would he spend over a million dollars for his legal defense when he could produce the documentation which has been requested from him?

Oh good grief...

I know that by denying all this, and saying that I am satisfied with the evidence that he has produced, and that you are behind the times along with all your conspiracy theorists and the like...that I am talking to the wind....

There is no convincing you...there is no evidence good enough to produce, real or other wise, independant or direct, that will convince you that he is who he says he is...that he has all the qualifications required of the presidency ....none of that will satisfy you.....

I wish you well....

[Nic Samojluk]

Shane wrote:

“I think Nic's credibility was lost long before he posted in this thread. Let's not allow him to distract us.”

Talk is cheap! Produce some evidence in support of your contention! I will be waiting. My guess is that you will ignore my request the way you did ignore similar requests of mine on another thread a long time ago.

I think I will take some of what I said back: It would be foolish for me to wait for any solid evidence from you. I will not waste my time again as I did before.

Of course, in the event you have changed your modus operandus, then make sure you quote my words when you attempt to represent my views.

[Neil D]

Force by the government in something they have no authority over.Now we can all pay thru increased premiumns for Obama's "free gift"

Oh? You mean that the goverment has no authority in protecting the rights of women to decide when they want to become pregnant? You mean that you want to be treated as a baby machine? You WANT to be abused, treated as an object, and not a person?

You see, bonnie, it's logic like this that I would definately support the sterilization of women who want to be nothing more than baby machines...

[Nic Samojluk]

Shane wrote:

“I can't see how anyone can see this as anything other than a violation of religious liberty. This is the first thing the Obama Administration has done that has really made me think we would have been better off with McCain.”

I am glad to learn that you have changed your views about Obama. It is amazing what three years of time can do. This means that perhaps there is hope that you will with the passing of time alter your views about abortion as well and finally agree with me. This is really encouraging! Perhaps I should not give up on you!

[Nic Samojluk]

hamilton-beach wrote:

“There is no convincing you...there is no evidence good enough to produce, real or other wise, independent or direct, that will convince you that he is who he says he is...that he has all the qualifications required of the presidency ....none of that will satisfy you.....”

Convincing for whom? you or the courts? There are several legal challenges to Obama’s eligibility to be our president, and while this is litigated through the courts, I am not siding with either position.

Did you hear what I said? I am not saying that this is either true or false. I am waiting for the court’s verdict! Nothing will satisfy me except the verdict of the courts and the verdict of history.

[bonnie]

Oh? You mean that the goverment has no authority in protecting the rights of women to decide when they want to become pregnant? You mean that you want to be treated as a baby machine? You WANT to be abused, treated as an object, and not a person?

[Dr. Shane]

The employer is telling the employee that the corporation has the right to control reproduction in it's employee's familys?

No. Not at all.

First we are not talking about a typical corporation. We are talking about an organized religious faith which is protected by the First Amendment of the US Constitution.

Second, the employees of the religious organization are free to purchase birth control, condoms or pay for sterilization with their wages. The religious organization, as an employer, is not forbidding or exercising any means to force the employees' behavior outside of the work place.

Third, the issue is that the religious organization believes birth control and sterilization are sinful so if they enable people to do those things they believe God will hold them accountable. Thus the religious organization cannot provide such products and services to their employees without violating their own religious beliefs.

[Neil D]

First we are not talking about a typical corporation. We are talking about an organized religious faith which is protected by the First Amendment of the US Constitution.

Second, the employees of the religious organization are free to purchase birth control, condoms or pay for sterilization with their wages. The religious organization, as an employer, is not forbidding or exercising any means to force the employees' behavior outside of the work place.

Third, the issue is that the religious organization believes birth control and sterilization are sinful so if they enable people to do those things they believe God will hold them accountable. Thus the religious organization cannot provide such products and services to their employees without violating their own religious beliefs.

[bonnie]

What right does the president of the US have to dictate any business provide free services.He is not ruler,dictator or king or is he?

[Neil D]

The government has the right to defend the defenseless when they are being attacked by those who would quell, subdue, and coerce them economically and politically. Business needs to take care of those who spend thier lives promoting the business they work for. That's why the government promotes competition....just so that there is no monopoly...And the issue here, is not religious liberty, but women's rights...

[bonnie]

The government has the right to defend the defenseless when they are being attacked by those who would quell, subdue, and coerce them economically and politically. Business needs to take care of those who spend thier lives promoting the business they work for. That's why the government promotes competition....just so that there is no monopoly...And the issue here, is not religious liberty, but women's rights...

Who is defenseless.Business needs to pay a fair wage for a fair hours work.Business is not responsible for family planning.

This isn't brain surgery.The cost of birth control pills is between 20-50.00 a month. Why are others responsible for paying for that. For those that can't,go to Planned Parenthood for a free or much reduced cost.Taxpayers are already funding that including abortions.

Suddenly we have become a nation of people that don't have any personal responsibility,it is all the government(other taxpayers) pay so "I don't have to"

[bonnie]

But you are right,it is not all about religious liberty.

It is a steady creep of erosion of rights period.

[Dr. Shane]

Romeny ordered catholic institutions to provide abortion services or loose government support...

Looks like someone has just been reading left-wing websites and not doing their homework. In Romney's case, the issue was abortion for incest and rape and the Catholic organizations did not have to provide abortion but rather direct victims to a where they could get such services.