I have a question regarding liberals...

[olger]

What the 'question' in the OP seems to boil down to is "there are some apparent conflicts within the set of irrational prejudices, poorly correlated with and untroubled by truth and reality, that I hold. Rather than seek to test my prejudices, I will turn these apparent conflicts into another stick with which to beat liberals, and reject any clarifications they offer".

Of course, since its a stick made of horse feathers, the beating doesn't hurt.

Horse feathers A tip of the hat from Ohio..

Nevertheless, the opening paragraph in this salvo has been weighed in the balances of reason and coherence and found wanting.

Question restated for clarity. Why would liberals, who tend to decry religion, pander to the Grand Poobah of all false religions, when most of the things they "believe" are at lethal variance with that 'religion?' Doesn't make sense.

Carry on brethren.

[olger]

Ahem. We recently bought our new Honda from a Mooslim. Sat with them in their house and had a snack with them. No worries.

Back to the excellent question....

[Bravus]

Liberals are against discrimination against everyone, and believe in the rights of everyone to believe as they wish without interference, so long as those beliefs are not enforced on others.

Part of being a liberal, kind of by definition, is extending tolerance toward those who are intolerant toward us (and, as it happens, Jesus had a few words to say on the topic).

So liberals are *not* seeking to help Muslims establish the power to legislate their religion on others, just as they oppose it when Christians try to do the same thing. But they *are* supporting Muslims' right to believe as they will for themselves.

It's actually a completely coherent perspective, within the assumptions of those holding that perspective.

The fact that it's difficult to understand from the perspective of those who are trying to enshrine their own right to discriminate against others is unsurprising.

[lazarus]

The big question is quite simple. If there exists such a wide diversity within Islam (as I believe there does), why do we not see moderate and/or liberal Muslim condemning radicals like we see going on in the Christian community?

So here's what I did. I googled the term "Muslims condemn terrorism". In 0.12 seconds there were over 3 million hits. Here's the first link: http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php. A number of the links are now defunct considering that 911 was over 10 years ago but many still work. My guess is that you can find a bunch of other links to other events.

You don't see it because its not what you want to see.

[lazarus]

Ahem. We recently bought our new Honda from a Mooslim. Sat with them in their house and had a snack with them.

Just curious, how did you know they were Muslim?

[Dr. Shane]

You don't see it because its not what you want to see.

I watch Al Jazerra English. Please don't judge me. The Christian world quickly condemns its radicals like Pat Robertson and Jeremiah "G*d-damn-America" Wright. The Muslim world does not condemn its radicals so vocally.

[Dr. Shane]

That's because in USofA Christians have nothing to fear, but most Muslims are afraid to say anything one way or the other, for fear of reprisils(sp) either from their own or from others outside their own.

Perhaps but what does that say about the difference between Christianity extremism and Muslim extremism? And we can compare Christians in the US with Muslims in the US. Why do moderate and liberal Christians not fear extremist Christians but moderate and liberal Muslims do fear extremist Muslims - here in the US?

[Bravus]

I think the differences are largely social and socioeconomic rather than religious: in other time periods Christianity has perpetrated its horrors, and been enthusiastically in support of them. The fact that it is less so now has more to do with being wealthy and comfortable and living in stable countries than with religion. And the violence of (a vanishingly tiny proportion of) Muslims is related more to the desperate circumstances in which they live than to religion. The 'Christian gunmen' in Lebanon during the conflict there are evidence that Christians in the same circumstances behave in the same ways.

This is *not* to excuse violence, ever, on the part of anyone. It is to note that it is simplistic and silly to claim that Christianity is in-principle less violent based on a very brief snapshot of history. It also ignores the fact that 'Christian' violence is state-sponsored rather than carried out by small radical groups. But the 100,000 Iraqis who died because God told Dubya to invade Iraq are every bit as dead as the casualties of any bombing attack.

[Dr. Shane]

The claim is not that Christianity is less violent. The claim is that Christians are more willing to criticize the extremes within their religion. And they are. Even during the Dark Ages, reformers were burned at the stake for daring to criticize the sins of the papacy.

Many American Muslims live in wealth and comfort in developed areas of the world and are still unwilling to publicly rebuke the extremists while poverty-stricken Christians in the third world willingly speak out against the sins of Christian extremists. Many Adventist Christians in heavily Catholic areas of the world still loudly proclaim the papacy as the anti-christ and tell of her many sins.

[Bravus]

I'm with Lazarus on this: that criticism does happen, it just doesn't happen where you see it. You are making a claim about reality based on your limited experience of it.

[Bravus]

e.g. do you read Arabic? Are there Muslims condemning the excesses of Muslims in Arabic publications? Perhaps as important, are there Christians condemning the excesses of Christians in Arabic publications.

Use empathy and imagination to place yourself in the life of an Arab Muslim in Saudi Arabia, or an Indonesian Muslim... and think carefully about all the media *that* person consumes. Do you think s/he would make the same observation that you have made?

Not through ideology, but through access to a different set of life experiences.

[Dr. Shane]

I watch Al Jazeera English It is one of my favorite news sources.

[lazarus]

I watch Al Jazerra English. Please don't judge me. The Christian world quickly condemns its radicals like Pat Robertson and Jeremiah "G*d-damn-America" Wright. The Muslim world does not condemn its radicals so vocally.

If Al Jazeera English is your window on the Muslim world then it's a small window.

Interestingly, the American Media "world" is what you call the Christian world. Do you really think Christians in Africa condemned Jeremiah Wright in the same way that FOX news did. How about Christians in South America? Would it surprise you to know that perhaps the majority of Christian world have never heard of Pat Robertson?

Are you serious about the Muslim Clerics not being condemned? Many of these guys end up in exile in western nations because they are essentially told in some counties to get out or be killed.

If you rely on mainstream American media for your views on the world you'll end up with a distorted perspective. America is not the world. American Christianity is not the Christian world.

Swedish authorities say that Obid-kori Nazarov, the Muslim cleric in exile in Sweden shot yesterday, has been transferred to another clinic following an operation but his conditions has worsened

In Egypt: “A radical cleric, Yusef Qardawi, who had been in exile, led prayers at this rally, ultimately hijacking the rally. When the young Google executive, Wael Ghonim, wanted to get up and speak after Qardawi, the Muslim Brotherhood barred him from speaking. That is not to say that Qardawi can dispatch terrorists tomorrow, but he is a dangerous Islamist ideologue, who had effectively silenced a secular opposition leader who was for reform. “

Tunisia: A radical Islamic cleric who was kept out of power in his home country by Tunisian President/strongman Zine El Abidine Ben Ali, has now jetted back from 21 years of exile in London.

[Dr. Shane]

If Al Jazeera English is your window on the Muslim world then it's a small window.