Please! Sign the Petition!

[Overaged]

All this is is someone who has started a petition, if one does not want to sign that it is fine. If someone wants to start a petition to make adventist hospital provide abortions that is fine, No one has to sign either.

I guess that's true Stan. I think it's great the way you allow equal say & expression of viewpoints here. We'd be lost without you.

[Overaged]

Gordon, I am passionate about babies being murdered. I don't understand why more people are not...maybe it would be good if you were a little more passionate....

Tammy; it does not follow that someone is not passionate about opposing abortions, because they do not think it wise to sign such petitions. That is an assumption that we have no credible way of making.

[Nic Samojluk]

Naomi asked:

“Of the 28 who have signed it, I recognize some of the names, are there other "petitions" being circulated?”

Yes, I started one with the same purpose and the same goal in mind. The main difference is that I went an extra inch to explain the reason for the petition and included the need for the church to apologize for its past involvement with the abortion industry. Here is the link to my own petition:

Petition Stop & Apologize for Elective Abortions in Adventist Hospitals

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/stop-apologize-for-elective-abortions-in/

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Tammy

It appears as most SDA's are ONE ISSUE SDA's ~ and the ONE ISSUE is the SABBATH....the other 9 commandments don't really matter much....I'm sorry, but that is how it appears.

No wonder they call it "narrow way ministry"

Why, because they believe in all ten of the commandments?

[Nic Samojluk]

Gordon1 wrote:

“Tammy: Naomi asks the right questions. But in direct response to your Opening Post, where you request others both sign their names (reveal identity) AND promote this petition (draw others into association):”

The only details participants are asked to reveal is their names and their email address. Such requirements were designed by the media—CNN, REUTERS, MSNBC, AND BBC. My guess is that the idea is to avoid fraudulent signings. Most people have only one email address. Nevertheless, my understanding is that the email address is not revealed and it is not used for commercial purposes.

“Why should others sign and promote this petition?”

The answer to your question is contained in the title of the petition. If you believe that it was wrong for the Adventist Church to profit from the provision of elective abortions in our Adventist hospitals, and if you believe that it is morally wrong to deprive the unborn of their God-given right to life, then you are given the chance to sign the petition.

“Please provide a complete & detailed reply if you are convicted of this cause.”

If you want a comprehensive answer to you question, perhaps you should secure a copy of the book I recently published dealing with the topic of abortion and our Adventist involvement with the profitable business of killing innocent human beings. Here is a link for my book: http://lulu.com. You will need to type my name—Nic Samojluk—in the blank search space to access it.

“I'm sure Stan will grant all space necessary to make a full disclosure.”

My book is 374 pages long. I don’t think Stan would allow me to post this on his forum.

[Nic Samojluk]

Tamm asked:

“Why wouldn't every SDA sign a petition that SDA hospitals STOP doing abortions or take the name SDA off the hospital. It seems so simple and clear to me...”

Excellent question! I believe that both pro-life Adventist and those who hold a pro-choice position should sign either one of those petitions. Most Adventists agree that abortions on demand are a violation both of Bible teachings and the teachings of the Adventist Church.

This is clearly stated in the Ten Commandments and also in our Adventist “Guidelines on Abortion.” Said Adventist document states that the church does not condone abortions on demand.

Why then, did he church allow our own Adventist hospitals to participate in the lucrative business of killing innocent unborn children? How can we say to the world with a straight face that we do not approve elective abortions and at the same time allow our own medical institutions to profit from shedding the blood of innocent human beings?

Thousands of innocent unborn babies have perished inside some of our own institutions. How can our message of salvation include the worst harm we can do to others? Didn’t Jesus state that on the Day of Judgment our eternal destiny will be determined by the way we have treated “the least of these”? Jesus identified himself with the “least.” This means to me that if we kill the least of these, we are killing Jesus.

Funny, but the biblical reference to “the least” was included in our Fundamental Belief # 16, but when we added another FB, for some reason the reference to Matthew 25 was deleted from FB # 17, the counterpart for FB # 16. My question is: Why was this biblical reference deleted? Isn’t what Jesus said about the Judgment fundamental anymore?

Is the Sabbath more fundamental than the respect for the right to life? Are innocent people being killed for worshipping on a certain day of the week? How does this compare with abortion? Isn’t the death of 50 million human beings a real genocide? Hitler exterminated his six million, but Americans have deprived of life ten times that many.

We Adventist led the way for the legalization of abortion. We started offering elective abortions back in 1970—three years prior to the legalization of abortion in the U.S. mainland. Should we not apologize for this dereliction of moral and religious duty?

If you agree with me, then please, sign either one of those petitions--or sign both!

[Nic Samojluk]

Overaged wrote:

“No wonder they call it "narrow way ministry"”

Do you realize that Jesus was probably the first one who made a reference to the “Narrow Way”? Jesus said that most people avoid the narrow way. They have a preference to the wide way--which leads to perdition.

[Gordon1]

Hi Nic, you may have a similar petition, but unless you're Tammy's husband, are you equipped to answer in her place?

Those who don't straightly heed the call to sign up are viewed as lacking passion, cowards, unChristian, etc. We should expect this - Christ faced the same for not following the whims of men.

The same rhetoric will be used by the persecuting power "you're ether with us, or you're with the terrorists."

But Christ will be found in neither camp, nor will His followers.

Nic, if your history on this issue was balanced and Biblical, I might read your book. But I've not seen it as complete nor your approach charitable toward even mild opposition. Charity (agape love) is the foundation of the gospel. Without this we are clanging cymbals - we are nothing - not going through. Christ would address the issue differently, not compromising salvation. The end does not justify the means.

A complete picture of the elective abortion issue will address the underlying causes.

Al & Tammy Roesch have emailed me over the years, including strong calls to support Tammy's 2010 bid for Representative in the Ohio legislature. I replied that political office is no solution nor preparation for the times ahead. And in a TV interview just days before the vote Tammy declared that she did not know if God was calling her to run for office. We should be more sure, less double-minded, the head, not the tail. The narrow way, not the broad way. For Tammy's petition there is the same uncertainty - who started it? who is the recipient? etc.

[Gordon1]

BTW, it's likely that many of these petitions (and forums & social media) will be used to identify & target dissenters from the status quo. (Heretics like Christ, Paul, the prophets before them).

We should move more circumspectly. Be not unequally yoked together with unbelievers.

[Tammy]

Hi Nic, you may have a similar petition, but unless you're Tammy's husband, are you equipped to answer in her place?

Those who don't straightly heed the call to sign up are viewed as lacking passion, cowards, unChristian, etc. We should expect this - Christ faced the same for not following the whims of men.

The same rhetoric will be used by the persecuting power "you're ether with us, or you're with the terrorists."

But Christ will be found in neither camp, nor will His followers.

Nic, if your history on this issue was balanced and Biblical, I might read your book. But I've not seen it as complete nor your approach charitable toward even mild opposition. Charity (agape love) is the foundation of the gospel. Without this we are clanging cymbals - we are nothing - not going through. Christ would address the issue differently, not compromising salvation. The end does not justify the means.

A complete picture of the elective abortion issue will address the underlying causes.

Al & Tammy Roesch have emailed me over the years, including strong calls to support Tammy's 2010 bid for Representative in the Ohio legislature. I replied that political office is no solution nor preparation for the times ahead. And in a TV interview just days before the vote Tammy declared that she did not know if God was calling her to run for office. We should be more sure, less double-minded, the head, not the tail. The narrow way, not the broad way. For Tammy's petition there is the same uncertainty - who started it? who is the recipient? etc.

Gordon, I've already told you who started the petition...

...and it was very true...I didn't know if God was calliing me to run for office or not....there are many things in life that we don't KNOW....we pray....and ask God to open/close the doors and to work through Providence to make known to us His will.

By the way, I don't mind at all if Nic answers for me on this subject...he has been studying the subject of Abortions in SDA Hospitals much longer than me and knows much more than I know... Thank you, Nic! I really don't have any extra time to spend going back and forth with people who look for every excuse they can to not take a stand for life.

[doug yowell]

The same rhetoric will be used by the persecuting power "you're ether with us, or you're with the terrorists."

But Christ will be found in neither camp, nor will His followers.

[doug yowell]

BTW, it's likely that many of these petitions (and forums & social media) will be used to identify & target dissenters from the status quo. (Heretics like Christ, Paul, the prophets before them).

We should move more circumspectly. Be not unequally yoked together with unbelievers.

Unfortunately, the status quo is the unrestrained killing of the unborn.If this petition is designed to identify dissenters then I'll gladly put my John Hancock in larger lettering and joining with others who,like Daniel,urge the powers that be to "...break off your sins by being righteous, and your iniquities by showing mercy to the unborn. Perhaps there may be a lengthening of your prosperity."

[phkrause]

Well; if anything in my signature is a problem just let me know. it can go anytime.

But it should be noted I do not have my web site in my sig, it is just a link to Steps To Christ for people to read...I think Tammy doesn't like what I said so she is miffed.

I agree

[Tammy]

Come on guys....I didn't realize that putting a forum address in the signature was breaking the rules...I don't want to break the rules.... I'm not upset... I wish you were as concerned about the topic - and what can we do to stop abortions in SDA hospitals as much as you seem concerned about my signature....

[Gordon1]

Hi Doug, your questions are valid.

(I'm not sure why you raise slavery in the 1800s. I don't know of pioneer Adventists who supported slavery. I don't actively support slavery. But if you've studied slavery, you'll know it's more widespread today than ever before. It's probable that most North American members of this forum lend passive support to the slavery system - albeit unknowingly - simply as active consumers of goods and services. Slaves were once highly valued in America, but today slaves are dirt cheap and disposable - though many are also out of sight - toiling in penury offshore. Thanks to Globalization & free trade Agreements, modern slaves will never see emancipation, many worked to death at a young age.)

There is no excuse for an SDA hospital killing healthy fetuses, but there is a balanced approach to the abortion issue. Having read many posts by Nic, I've not seen this. And when it was raised, only met with vitriol. But Christ did not debate, I'm not called to either.

What is the cause of women seeking abortion?

Is it the presence of clinics?

Or is it because they are pregnant?

What steps led to their impregnation?

Will closing all the clinics keep these women and men from conceiving?

It appears Nic's focus is the Adventist angle - IOW pregnant women within the sphere of an Adventist institution who are seeking to abort the planted seed. How much SDA talent and resource dollars went into local programs on abstinence, self control or contraception? Is this not the Church mandate?

I'll agree it's easy to rail at the problem, but working at the root is the Christian way. NOT suggesting chastity belts or sterilization, rather a change of heart & mind. How about some support and clean friendship for those youth and adults seeking fellowship? And some training in personal responsibility. Unfortunately standards seem somewhat lowered in SDA Churches today. Ministers marry and remarry, members hug & kiss, hemlines rise with the summer breeze.

Injunctions on the clinics or guilt trips for the pregnant women & men is a works-program without end. Too Late!

Lay the axe at the root of the tree, not at the fruit.

[Overaged]

Will closing all the clinics keep these women and men from conceiving?

It appears Nic's focus is the Adventist angle - IOW pregnant women within the sphere of an Adventist institution who are seeking to abort the planted seed. How much SDA talent and resource dollars went into local programs on abstinence, self control or contraception? Is this not the Church mandate?

I'll agree it's easy to rail at the problem, but working at the root is the Christian way. NOT suggesting chastity belts or sterilization, rather a change of heart & mind. How about some support and clean friendship for those youth and adults seeking fellowship? And some training in personal responsibility. Unfortunately standards seem somewhat lowered in SDA Churches today. Ministers marry and remarry, members hug & kiss, hemlines rise with the summer breeze.

Injunctions on the clinics or guilt trips for the pregnant women & men is a works-program without end. Too Late!

Lay the axe at the root of the tree, not at the fruit.

Excellent posts here Gordon1. I agree with your views on this subject; and I particularly agree with what you said about laying the axe to the root of the tree, NOT AT THE FRUIT. This is essentially what we are seeing here.

[Overaged]

Come on guys....I didn't realize that putting a forum address in the signature was breaking the rules...I don't want to break the rules.... I'm not upset... I wish you were as concerned about the topic - and what can we do to stop abortions in SDA hospitals as much as you seem concerned about my signature....

Well thats the other half of the problem is that you wont stop insisting something that isnt true and that you have no way of knowing. To keep insisting that those who object to what you & Nic are doing, and how you are doing it are "not concerned" is a very superficial, and unproven statement, and at best a VERY NARROW WAY.

[Stan]

Cease the personal attacks.

[Nic Samojluk]

Gordon1 wrote:

“Hi Nic, you may have a similar petition, but unless you're Tammy's husband, are you equipped to answer in her place?”

I thought this was a public forum where everybody was free to post his/her opinion on any idea presented here! Am I wrong?

“Those who don't straightly heed the call to sign up are viewed as lacking passion, cowards, unChristian, etc.”

Who are you talking about? Did I ever make such remarks? Can you quote a pro-lifer Adventist writing such comments? I fully agree with Stan on this. These are simply petitions which people can sign or refuse to sign.

Are you perhaps fabricating false claims against pro-life Adventists in order to discredit them and destroy their reputation and effectiveness in carrying the mission the Lord has assigned to them? If you are, is this the Christian way to treat your Christian brothers and sisters?

“We should expect this - Christ faced the same for not following the whims of men.”

These petitions represent a call to repentance and reformation. They invite Adventists to return to the faith of the Adventist pioneers who described abortion as murder, but you label said call as “the whims of men”? Are you applying these labels correctly and according to Scripture?

Who has departed from the teachings of Scripture: pro-life or pro-choice Adventists? Which group is teaching the validity and permanence of the Ten Commandments? Which group is sticking to the biblical description of God’s Remnant on earth—those who keep God’s Commandments?

When I joined the SDA movement the church was pro-life. What happened? Who has deviated from the straight path? The Adventist Church is still pro-life in the country I was baptized, and I am sending my tithes there and to the Quiet Hour.

I cannot send God’s money to a church which condones the killing of innocent human beings in our own hospitals with impunity! I cannot have the blood of the innocents on my hands!

“The same rhetoric will be used by the persecuting power "you're ether with us, or you're with the terrorists."”

Who is persecuting the innocents today? Are pro-life Adventists guilty of this crime? Can you name some? Mark Price started a web forum called “Adventists for Life” not long ago, and the General Conference attorneys demanded that he de-register his domain name and his web page was eliminated from cyber space. He stated in his web page that he recognized all the Fundamental Beliefs of the church.

His sin was speaking on behalf of those some Adventist hospitals were killing by the thousands. At the same time, an Adventist hospital located near the GC office was busy profiting from abortion with impunity.

The message we were sending to the world was: If you speak in defense of the unborn, the church will make your life miserable, but if you profit from killing those innocent babies, you will be allowed to do your evil work with impunity. Is this the saving message we have for the world?

“But Christ will be found in neither camp, nor will His followers.”

Christ will be with those who stick to Scripture and its teachings—those who keep God’s Commandments and have the faith of Jesus.

“Nic, if your history on this issue was balanced and Biblical, I might read your book.”

Do I need to approve the evil actions of the church in order to be biblical? My church has compromised with evil in 1970. It allowed Adventist hospitals to offer abortions on demand, which is contrary to Scripture and contrary to our own “Guidelines on Abortion.”

“But I've not seen it as complete nor your approach charitable toward even mild opposition. Charity (agape love) is the foundation of the gospel. Without this we are clanging cymbals - we are nothing - not going through.”

The Bible states that God disciplines those he loves. The message of all the prophets we find in the Bible has always been the same: Repent and live. This is the message the Lord has laid on my shoulders. If you think that this is unloving, then you need to read again the message of Isaiah, Jeremiah, John the Baptist, and Jesus.

“Christ would address the issue differently, not compromising salvation. The end does not justify the means.”

Have you read the strong condemnation of abortion by the Adventist pioneers. Would you argue that their message was deficient of love? Love should be equitable. It must include the victims and those who are harming said victims. Who deserves more love, the one doing the killing or the one being killed?

“A complete picture of the elective abortion issue will address the underlying causes.”

Yes, the underlying cause of abortion is a lack of love towards the victims of abortion. The woman whose baby is killed is loaded with guilt for the rest of her life, and the innocent baby is deprived of it most valued assed: life. The root of abortion is sin, adultery, fornication, and a preference for lifestyle over life itself.

“For Tammy's petition there is the same uncertainty - who started it? who is the recipient? etc.”

There is neither uncertainty nor mystery here! Tammy did not start said petition. It was started by “Restoration Ministries” and here is the link: http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/stop-abortion-in-seventh-day-adventist-hospitals/

The other one was started by me. Here is the link: http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/stop-apologize-for-elective-abortions-in/

You are free to sign either one, both, or neither one. Nobody will condemn you for refusing to sign said petitions. The goal is to invite the church to reconsider its support of and toleration of elective abortions on demand which have destroyed so far 55 millions of innocent unborn babies.

[Gordon1]

[Nic Samojluk]

Gordon1 wrote:

“We should move more circumspectly. Be not unequally yoked together with unbelievers.”

Yes! This is exactly where our church has failed. Ellen White did warn us against being unequally yoked with the world, and the Bible issued the same warning. Did our leaders heed said warning? What is the evidence?

When the State of Hawaii legalized abortion back in 1970, the non-Adventist doctors at our “Castle Memorial Hospital” [CMH] demanded the right to offer elective abortions and threatened to take their patients elsewhere in the event their demand was not granted. Our leaders feared the loss of revenue and compromised with evil.

The fear of men prevailed and the fear of the Lord went out the window. Abortions on demand was against the teachings of the Bible and against the teachings of the church, but the church decided to look the other way and to see no evil. The result was that at least five Adventist hospitals decided to follow the example of CMH in direct violaton of the Sixth Commandment and our own “Guidelines on Abortion.”

This is where we failed as God’s Remnant on earth and this is the reason we need to repent of this great evil and ask for God’s forgiveness. Public sins must be confronted publicly. This is what Paul did when he reprimanded Peter—the president of the Christian church. Pro-life Adventists are doing the same today.

Being unequally yoked with those who break God Law is dangerous and this sin must be confronted by those who fear the Lord!

[Nic Samojluk]

Gordon1 wrote:

“But Christ did not debate, I'm not called to either.”

Christ did not debate? You probably need to read the Gospel account again. Jesus was constantly accosted by his enemies, and he did answer their false accusations with the right answer. He also did debate even with the Tempter in the desert, and he answered each argument with a “It is written.” Have you missed all this?

“Nic's focus is the Adventist angle - IOW pregnant women within the sphere of an Adventist institution who are seeking to abort the planted seed. How much SDA talent and resource dollars went into local programs on abstinence, self control or contraception? Is this not the Church mandate?”

I am not opposed to a more comprehensive approach to the problem. This is where people like you come in. A single pro-lifer cannot play all the instruments of an orchestra! The work of pro-lifers should include everything which needs to be done on behalf of the victims of abortion.

“I'll agree it's easy to rail at the problem, but working at the root is the Christian way.”

I agree! Nevertheless, the first step if to highlight the problem. This is what the Lord asked me to do. I cannot do all the work which needs to be done alone. I am taking the first step towards a revival of the faith of our pioneers regarding the abortion issue. The Lord will use others to do what I cannot do alone.

My time and my financial resources could not be more limited. For nearly two decades I dedicated half of my working hours to this cause “ad honorem”—without pay. I invested a fortune into this project. I should be commended for this instead of being hit on the head with a two by four.

“How about some support and clean friendship for those youth and adults seeking fellowship? And some training in personal responsibility.”

Great idea! Any volunteers? I cannot do all things alone! The Lord will not clobber me on my head for the little I can do to solve this problem. The Lord needs an army of Adventist pro-lifers doing things he gifted them for. I am responsible only for the one talent he gave me, and not for the ten he gave others.

“Lay the axe at the root of the tree, not at the fruit.!”

Yes! Tell me what you have been doing to solve this problem! If you are not doing everything which needs to be done, I will not condemn you for your limitations. I will rather encourage you to continue doing what the Lord has gifted you for.

[Nic Samojluk]

Gordon,

The Lord needs an army of Adventist pro-lifers--a lone ranger will never succeed in his God assigned task unless his work is complemented by the work of others. We need to join hands instead of trying to destroy what others are doing.

[phkrause]

Gordon,

The Lord needs an army of Adventist pro-lifers--a lone ranger will never succeed in his God assigned task unless his work is complemented by the work of others. We need to join hands instead of trying to destroy what others are doing.

I disagree that we need pro-lifers, what we need is people that will stand up for what's right.

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

Gordon,

The Lord needs an army of Adventist pro-lifers--a lone ranger will never succeed in his God assigned task unless his work is complemented by the work of others. We need to join hands instead of trying to destroy what others are doing.

I disagree that we need pro-lifers, what we need is people that will stand up for what's right.

Amen to that pk!