The Human Will/Choice and its Dilemma.

[rodgertutt]

Decretive from "decree"? Preceptive would be from "precept".

Yes, as I see it, everything that happens is in accord with what God decrees MUST happen, including the extent to which each person violates His preceptive will.

I believe that God will eventually fit every individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person’s life too.

The idea that it wouldn't be "right" for God to hold us accountable if we cannot help but choose what we do is an ethical opinion that is rendered irrelevant by the fact that we always, without exception, choose what our reasonings tell us is the choice that we prefer the MOST at any given point in time.

[dialoguewithus]

Romans 8:26 (CLV)

Now, similarly, the spirit also is aiding our infirmity, for what we should be praying for, to accord with what must be, we are not aware, but the spirit itself is pleading for us with inarticulate groanings.

Romans 9:

14 What, then, shall we be declaring? Not that there is injustice with God? May it not be coming to that! 15 For to Moses He is saying, "I shall be merciful to whomever I may be merciful, and I shall be pitying whomever I may be pitying. 16 Consequently, then, it is not of him who is willing, nor of him who is racing, but of God, the Merciful." 17 For the scripture is saying to Pharaoh that "For this selfsame thing I rouse you up, so that I should be displaying in you My power, and so that My name should be published in the entire earth. 18 Consequently, then, to whom He will, He is merciful, yet whom He will, He is hardening. 19 You will be protesting to me, then, "Why, then, is He still blaming? for who has withstood His intention?" 20 O man! who are you, to be sure, who are answering again to God? That which is molded will not protest to the molder, "Why do you make me thus?" 21 Or has not the potter the right over the clay, out of the same kneading to make one vessel, indeed, for honor, yet one for dishonor? 22 Now if God, wanting to display His indignation and to make His powerful doings known, carries, with much patience, the vessels of indignation, adapted for destruction, 23 it is that He should also be making known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He makes ready before for glory

[cheddar]

The idea that it wouldn't be "right" for God to hold us accountable if we cannot help but choose what we do is an ethical opinion that is rendered irrelevant by the fact that we always, without exception, choose what our reasonings tell us is the choice that we prefer the MOST at any given point in time.

The only person I know who fits this description is Mr. Spock.

[rodgertutt]

Originally Posted By: rodgertutt

The idea that it wouldn't be "right" for God to hold us accountable if we cannot help but choose what we do is an ethical opinion that is rendered irrelevant by the fact that we always, without exception, choose what our reasonings tell us is the choice that we prefer the MOST at any given point in time.

The only person I know who fits this description is Mr. Spock.

It's actually true with everyone.

"Free" will is an illusion.

Everyone always chooses what they prefer the MOST based on their reasonings and feelings as to why they prefer it the MOST. The combination of their reasonings and feelings is what causes them to make a certain choice instead of a different choice. No other choice could have been made.

Here's the way that James Coram puts it.

"In any certain moment, either we have a given preference (and consequently effect a corresponding choice and action) or we do not. We cannot have a new preference while our old preference still exists. Nor can we make a new choice while we still have an old preference. For the act of choosing is merely the exercise of existing preference."

Albert Einstein put it this way

“I do not at all believe in human freedom in the [popular] philosophical sense. Everybody acts not only from external compulsion but also in accordance with inner necessity. A man’s actions are determined by necessity, external and internal, so that he cannot be responsible [i.e., able to act otherwise], any more than an inanimate object is responsible for the motion it undergoes."

My own quote.

"After due deliberation we always make the choice that our combined reasonings and feelings (i.e. preferences and desires) convince us is the choice that we prefer and desire the MOST.

The fact that we choose it demonstrates that we prefer and desire it the MOST, or we would have made some other choice instead."

[Guest]

Looks like you're spamming us again with universalism.

[rodgertutt]

Looks like you're spamming us again with universalism.

Christian universalism is the belief that sooner or later, because of what Christ accomplished by His death and resurrection, He is eventually going to save everyone from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn will.

Scriptural evidence as to why I personally believe it can be examined here.

UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY

http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm

[M. T. Cross]

It was not even possible for you to not post what you posted above.

After you have put forth all of the arguments that you can think of, it will still remain true that you will always choose in the direction of what you perceive to be the choice that you prefer the MOST.

Sorry, but I just can not buy into that.

I would have preferred to have Christianity to make more sense to me. It would have been easier.

I would prefer to make more money

I would prefer to live where I use too

Many of the choices I have made were based on what I preferred. They were based on what I thought was right - even when I did not like it.

[dialoguewithus]

"Many of the choices I have made were based on what I preferred. They were based on what I thought was right - even when I did not like it."

All our choices are based on what we prefer, whether because we think it's right, or we enjoy it, or it's "what everyone does", or it seems most convenient, or we were raised that way, or it's all we feel we can afford, or...

[M. T. Cross]

Quote:

"Many of the choices I have made were based on what I preferred. They were based on what I thought was right - even when I did not like it."

That actually was meant to read

"Many of the choices I have made were NOT based on what I preferred. They were based on what I thought was right - even when I did not like it."

[miz3]

I see two different entities in rogertutt's posts.

1. His "theistic determinism".

2. His "universalism".

Roger Tutt has married the two into his belief system. However I don't think that it is a "must" that "theistic determinism" and "universalism" are married.

I think one can be a theistic determinist without also being a universalist and one can be a universalist without being a theistic determinist.

Quote:

Thus the only possibilities are:

a. Roger Tutt is correct on both his universalism and his theistic determinism.

b. Roger Tutt is correct on just his universalism and wrong on his theistic determinism.

c. Roger Tutt is correct on just his theistic determinism and wrong on his universalism.

d. Roger Tutt is wrong on both his universalism and his theistic determinism.

[miz3]

I think it is too bad that only Dr. Rich and Empty Cross seem to disagree with rogertutt and dialoguewithus.

I was sure there would be many more "heavy" thinkers from this forum that would be rushing to contradict the "theistic determinism".

Where are they? Have they given up that their position is wrong and rogertutt is correct in his "theistic determinism"?

[BobRyan]

After you have put forth all of the arguments that you can think of, it will still remain true that you will always choose in the direction of what you perceive to be the choice that you prefer the MOST.

1. Miz3 is right about option 2 being totally in correct.

2. Your statement above uses circular reasoning.

The question is WHY does someone prefer something over another - and your answer is "because they choose what they prefer the most". Which does not address the question.

And obviously Matt 7 totally rules out universalism, as well as Matt 18 and Ezek 18 and 1Cor 6 and 2Cor 5:10 and more or less the entire Bible.

Calvinism is bad enough with its predestination (which is merely a gimmick employed by the Calvinist model as it tries to "be god" and figure out how it is that God can possibly know the future).

But 5 point Calvinism (as extreme as it is ) does not to the more extended extreme of universalism in its rejection of the Bible statements on the subject.

Romans 3 and Genesis 6 and Ephesians 2:1-5 address the point of moral depravity. But in John 12:32 we have the "drawing of all" and in John 16 we have the Holy Spirit "convicting the world of sin and righteousness and judgment" - thus the morally depraved are "enabled to choose" the right course of action - to exercise faith.

It is interesting that even 5 point Calvinism will agree (at least to this) that the supernatural John 12:32 drawing of "all" enables the choice for salvation that Romans 3 depravity disabled.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Quote:

"Many of the choices I have made were based on what I preferred. They were based on what I thought was right - even when I did not like it."

That actually was meant to read

"Many of the choices I have made were NOT based on what I preferred. They were based on what I thought was right - even when I did not like it."

"prefer" covers a lot of ground. It is a circular argument because you can use it for almost anything - such as "I do not like staying up all night to study for the test tomorrow - but I prefer to get an A on the test not an F - so I stayed up all night".

All the students "preferred the A" - but not all were willing to endure the inconvenience and self-discipline of studying all night for the test.

As each hour passes and it gets later and later - the resolve to not get the A - is tested against the increased "inconvenience". Very often our desire for some noble goal is tested against our willingness to endure, to exercise self-discipline. And as Christians know - the willingness and ability to endure suffering is a function of the will connected to the power of God through the Holy Spirit.

Don't get pulled into that trap.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

I propose option 3 -

People do what they do as a result of the complex 3-way interaction between

1. Romans 3, Genesis 6:5, Gen 8:21 - depravity,

2. Gen 3's supernatural enmity (along with John 16 conviction and John 12 drawing of ALL),

3. the Genesis 2 teaching on free will being allowed for all of God's intelligent creation.

In fact if you think about it - God's own "choice" to allow free will in heaven COST Him the loss of 1/3 of the angels.

God's own "choice" to allow and preserve free will on earth with Adam and Eve - "COST" him the loss of mankind into a fallen state and ultimately the death of His Son to redeem "whosoever will".

God's own choice to allow and enable free will (to choose to repent or not) - "COST" him the loss of almost all of mankind at the flood, the loss of the Jewish nation at the cross, the loss of the organized Christian church in the dark ages.

in Christ,

Bob

[miz3]

Thank you BobRyan we will now await to see what the response to your posts is.

[Dr. Rich]

Perhaps the 'few good men' are all that God needs--just remember how many it took for Jerico's walls to fall.

[rodgertutt]

After you have put forth all of the arguments that you can think of, it will still remain true that you will always choose in the direction of what you perceive to be the choice that you prefer the MOST.

[BobRyan]

Not true. You chose only because you preferred that choice the MOST.

Circular reasoning again.

You prefer that the most because you prefer that the most. You take that action because you prefer that above the other options.

[rodgertutt]

Originally Posted By: rodgertutt

Not true. You chose only because you preferred that choice the MOST.

Circular reasoning again.

You prefer that the most because you prefer that the most. You take that action because you prefer that above the other options.

No, it's strait line reasoning.

At the beginning of the line you decided what you preferred the MOST.

At the end of the line you actually made that choice.

It is not even possible that you could have chosen any differently from what you decided was the choice you preferred the MOST.

[dialoguewithus]

John 12:32 – A Study

Jesus said, “And I, if I should be exalted out of the earth, shall be drawing all to Myself.” Now this He said, signifying by what death He was about to be dying. –verse 33. Christ was “exalted out of the earth”, on the pole or cross, suffering the death of the tree, which brought God’s curse upon Him: “Christ reclaims us from the curse of the law, becoming a curse for our sakes, for it is written, Accursed is everyone hanging on a pole,” –Gal. 3:13. Acts 5:30- “Now the God of our fathers rouses Jesus, on Whom you lay hands, hanging Him on a pole.” So, “…Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, and… He was entombed, and… He has been roused the third day according to the scriptures” 1 Cor. 15:3, 4. Therefore, we know for a fact that Christ will be drawing all to Himself. How can believers know what the word, “draw” in John 12:32 means? The best method is to examine how the word is used in other New Testament verses. “Draw” is the Greek, “[h]elk u’ o”; this word appears in six verses- Jn. 6:44; 12:32; 18:10; 21:6, 11; Acts 16:19. The variant, “[h]elk’o” appears in Acts 21:30 and James 2:6. It would be good for the Bible student to decide if these words mean "to cause to move in a given direction", or rather, “to woo”. It would also be good to answer this question: When will Christ draw to Himself the multiplied millions who die without having once heard about the one true God? (This would include hundreds of millions of small children.)

[dialoguewithus]

The purpose of God remains as the choice of Him Who is calling

God works in us to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight- Phil. 2:13. When we believe in Christ, it is God’s work- Jn. 6:29. No one can come to Christ unless God draw him, and Christ will under no circumstances cast him out- Jn. 6:44, 37. Salvation is not out of us; it’s a present from God, our faith being graciously granted to us- Eph. 2:6-10; Phil. 1:29. God “chooses us in Him before the disruption of the world”, for He is merciful to whom He will- Eph. 1:4; Ro. 9.

“…be of a sane disposition, as God parts to each the measure of faith.” Ro. 12:3. 2 Thes. 3:2: (At this time) “…not for all is the faith."

Acts 5:31

This Inaugurator and Saviour, God exalts to His right hand, to give repentance to Israel and the pardon of sins.

Acts 11:18

Now, on hearing these things, they are quiet, and glorify God, saying, "Consequently, to the nations also God gives repentance unto life!"

2 Timothy 2:25

with meekness training those who are antagonizing, seeing whether God may be giving them repentance to come into a realization of the truth,

Acts 13:48, “Now on hearing this, the nations rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and they believe, whoever were set for life eonian.”

1 Cor. 4:7: “…Now what have you which you did not obtain? Now if you obtained it also, why are you boasting as though not obtaining?”

[Guest]

Christian universalism is the belief that sooner or later, because of what Christ accomplished by His death and resurrection, He is eventually going to save everyone from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn will.

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/534028.html#Post534028

[dialoguewithus]

WHAT IS THE SCOPE?

The primary question concerning both the first and the second clause of 1 Corinthians 15:22, is the scope of the word "all" in the phrases, "in Adam, all...", and "in Christ, all...." As we have already explained, the scope of the "all" in each of these clauses, is determined by the noun appearing in each clause's corresponding clause in verse 21. In the case of both the "all" appearing in 1 Corinthians 15:22a and that in 22b, the antecedent noun in verse 21, is "man" or "human." Hence it is simply a fact that the elliptical noun to be supplied to the adjective "all" in both clauses of 1 Corinthians 15:22, is "mankind." The sense, then, of Paul's words is that, "even as, in Adam, all [mankind] are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all [mankind] be vivified." In the wisdom of God, the revelation of this vital passage is made in such a way that all who are able to receive its truth may find assurance that they indeed have done so. And, in the wisdom of God, its truth is also declared in such a way that those to whom its enlightenment has not been given, may, in their own minds, justify their unbelief.

http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/resurr.html

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: rodgertutt

Not true. You chose only because you preferred that choice the MOST.

Circular reasoning again.

You prefer that the most because you prefer that the most. You take that action because you prefer that above the other options.

[dialoguewithus]

God’s Preference

Proverbs 8:10 (CLV)

‘Take in my admonition, and do not prefer silver, And take knowledge rather than choice, fine gold."

Here we have a definition of “prefer” in the form of a parallel passage; it means to choose one thing rather than another. The dictionary says “to like one thing better than another”.

The Greek [h]air e’ o / [h]air e t iz’ o appears in four places. The first is

Matthew 12:18 (CLV)

“Lo, My Boy Whom I prefer! My Beloved, in Whom My soul delights! I shall be placing My spirit on Him, And He shall be reporting judging to the nations."

It also appears in Phil. 1:22 and Heb. 11:25. The final use is in

2 Thessalonians 2:13 (CLV)

“Now we ought to be thanking God always concerning you, brethren, beloved by the Lord, seeing that God prefers you from the beginning for salvation, in holiness of the spirit and faith in the truth,”

What does it mean that God preferred them from the beginning for salvation? First, they were preferred above others; it’s impossible to prefer all; there must be a “lifting” of one above another, as the root of the Greek word indicates. Paul mentions this dichotomy in Romans chapter 9, and assures us that “it is not of him who is willing, nor of him who is racing, but of God, the merciful.” –Verse 16. Verse 23 informs us that the vessels of mercy are made ready before for glory. Romans 8:28-30 further describes God’s working in those He chooses to enjoy life during the oncoming eons. Therefore, we read in Acts 13:48, “Now on hearing this, the nations rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and they believe, whoever were set for life eonian.” You might ask, “By whom were they set for eonian life?” God leaves no doubt in that regard; It is God’s choice in grace. The purpose of God remains as the choice of Him who is calling- Ro. 9:11. See also Ro. 11:5; Eph. 1:4; John 12:37-40.

This separation, or election, which God makes, is concerned with eonian salvation, during the present wicked eon and in the two oncoming, glorious eons. God chooses final and unending salvation for all universally after the eons have run their course. John 12:32; Ro. 11:32; 1 Cor. 15:20-28; Col. 1:15-20; Phil. 2:9-11; 1 Tim. 4:9-11.

When we say we prefer whatever we choose to do, we mean that, under the circumstances as they are, and according to how, especially, we, as an individual, perceive those circumstances, we chose what we feel is best. Whether or not it seems "pleasant" is another question.