Moderators John317 Posted April 28, 2012 Moderators Share Posted April 28, 2012 Do you sing praises to the Holy Spirit? Isn't singing praises to the Holy Spirit the same as praying, just as it is when we sing praises to the Father and the Son? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted April 28, 2012 Moderators Share Posted April 28, 2012 Why do you ask this? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Waite Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 Do you sing praises to the Holy Spirit? Isn't singing praises to the Holy Spirit the same as praying, just as it is when we sing praises to the Father and the Son? THE ANSWER IS NO. I DO NOT SING THE DOXOLOGY. ELLEN WHITE IS NOT MY EXAMPLE IN ALL THINGS. BUT, JESUS CHRIST, THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF THE LIVING GOD IS MY EXAMPLE IN ALL THINGS. Quote grw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted April 28, 2012 Moderators Share Posted April 28, 2012 ...I DO NOT SING THE DOXOLOGY. ELLEN WHITE IS NOT MY EXAMPLE IN ALL THINGS. Considering that she sang it and urged other SDAs to sing it, what do you believe her doing so suggests about her belief regarding the person and personality of the Holy Spirit? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted April 28, 2012 Moderators Share Posted April 28, 2012 I don't believe the prophet of God would have sung it and urged the SDA Church to sing it if she didn't believe she was authorized by God to do it. She also must have viewed singing the doxology as being in harmony with her writings. It is possible that people who think it is not in harmony with the Bible or her writings are misunderstanding both the Bible and Ellen White's writings. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted April 28, 2012 Moderators Share Posted April 28, 2012 ...I AGREE THAT WE WORSHIP ONLY ONE GOD, BUT WE DO NOT DEFINE "GOD" THE SAME. I DO NOT DEFINE "GOD" AS A UNITY OF THREE CO-ETERNAL PERSONS. JESUS CHRIST DEFINED "GOD" OR "THE ONLY TRUE GOD" AS BEING HIS FATHER ONLY AND NO ONE ELSE. THAT IS WHO I WORSHIP. Doesn't the Bible refer to the Father as "God," to Christ as "God," and to the Holy Spirit as "God"? Isn't Christ a part of the "Godhead"? How about the Holy Spirit-- is He also a part of the Godhead? Ellen White defines the "Godhead" as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, doesn't she? Do you agree with her? Here are her words: "Those who have by baptism given to God a pledge of their faith in Christ, and their death to the old life of sin, have entered into covenant relation with God. The three powers of the Godhead, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, are pledged to be their strength and their efficiency in their new life in Christ Jesus." {AUCR, October 7, 1907 par. 9} Pretty clear, isn't it? How could the Holy Spirit pledge Himself if He isn't a living, distinct, divine Person? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Waite Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 Originally Posted By: Dr. Waite ...I DO NOT SING THE DOXOLOGY. ELLEN WHITE IS NOT MY EXAMPLE IN ALL THINGS. Considering that she sang it and urged other SDAs to sing it, what do you believe her doing so suggests about her belief regarding the person and personality of the Holy Spirit? FIRST OF ALL ELLEN WHITE IS NOT MY EXAMPLE IN ALL THINGS. ONLY JESUS CHRIST CAN BE MY EXAMPLE IN ALL THINGS. PLEASE GIVE ME PROOF THAT SHE SANG THE SAME DOXOLOGY THAT IS SUNG IN SDA CHURCHES TODAY. THE DOXOLOGY CHANGED IN 1985 WITH THE NEW HYMNAL. Quote grw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted April 28, 2012 Moderators Share Posted April 28, 2012 ... JESUS CHRIST DEFINED "GOD" OR "THE ONLY TRUE GOD" AS BEING HIS FATHER ONLY AND NO ONE ELSE. THAT IS WHO I WORSHIP. Are you sure that Christ defined "God" as only the Father? Are you saying that Christ denied that He is God? Christ is either true God or a false God, right? Or do you believe He can be both? Didn't the Father command the angels to worship Christ? Why did God give this command to angels if He didn't intend for angels AND HUMANS to worship Christ? The children of Israel worshipped Christ, Dr. Waite. They did so whenever they worshipped Yahweh because Christ was known by the name of Yahweh prior to the time of Christ. Weren't they worshipping the same God whom they tested in the wilderness? That God, of course, was Christ Himself. Finally, Rev. 5: 11-14 shows that the whole universe apart from the earth worships both the Father and the Lamb of God, who, of course, is Jesus Christ. Verse 14 says: And the four living creatures said, "Amen!" and the elders fell down and worshiped. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted April 28, 2012 Moderators Share Posted April 28, 2012 ...PLEASE GIVE ME PROOF THAT SHE SANG THE SAME DOXOLOGY THAT IS SUNG IN SDA CHURCHES TODAY. THE DOXOLOGY CHANGED IN 1985 WITH THE NEW HYMNAL. I think you have your mind made up. Would it make any difference to you if she did sing the doxology? Or will you merely say it doesn't matter? The reason I say this, Dr. Waite, is that I showed you the quotes before. I showed them to you about a year ago, at least once. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted April 28, 2012 Moderators Share Posted April 28, 2012 ... ELLEN WHITE IS NOT MY EXAMPLE IN ALL THINGS. BUT, JESUS CHRIST, THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF THE LIVING GOD IS MY EXAMPLE IN ALL THINGS. Ellen White preached in a sermon that we should sing the doxology. Do you believe she preached error? I don't. I believe she meant what she preached and sang and that she believed she was authorized by God to do both. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Waite Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 Originally Posted By: Dr. Waite ...I AGREE THAT WE WORSHIP ONLY ONE GOD, BUT WE DO NOT DEFINE "GOD" THE SAME. I DO NOT DEFINE "GOD" AS A UNITY OF THREE CO-ETERNAL PERSONS. JESUS CHRIST DEFINED "GOD" OR "THE ONLY TRUE GOD" AS BEING HIS FATHER ONLY AND NO ONE ELSE. THAT IS WHO I WORSHIP. Doesn't the Bible refer to the Father as "God," to Christ as "God," and to the Holy Spirit as "God"? Isn't Christ a part of the "Godhead"? How about the Holy Spirit-- is He also a part of the Godhead? Ellen White defines the "Godhead" as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, doesn't she? Do you agree with her? Here are her words: "Those who have by baptism given to God a pledge of their faith in Christ, and their death to the old life of sin, have entered into covenant relation with God. The three powers of the Godhead, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, are pledged to be their strength and their efficiency in their new life in Christ Jesus." {AUCR, October 7, 1907 par. 9} Pretty clear, isn't it? How could the Holy Spirit pledge Himself if He isn't a living, distinct, divine Person? YES, CHRIST IS GOD (HEBREWS 1:8), BUT HE IS NOT THE "ONLY TRUE GOD" REFERRED TO IN JOHN 17:3 THE BIBLE DOES NOT REFER TO THE HOLY SPIRIT, A PERSON DISTINCT FROM THE FATHER AND SON), AS "GOD" Quote grw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted April 28, 2012 Moderators Share Posted April 28, 2012 ...PLEASE GIVE ME PROOF THAT SHE SANG THE SAME DOXOLOGY THAT IS SUNG IN SDA CHURCHES TODAY. THE DOXOLOGY CHANGED IN 1985 WITH THE NEW HYMNAL. Here it is again: I invite all to be especially liberal at this time. Let cheerful freewill-offerings be brought to the Lord, let us consecrate to Him all that we are, and all that we have, and then may we all unite to swell the songs,-- "Praise God, from whom all blessings flow; Praise him, all creatures here below; Praise him above, ye heavenly host; Praise Father, Son, and Holy Ghost." {Review and Herald, Jan. 4, 1881, "The New Year"} Notice, Dr. Waite, that praising God-- "Him"-- is actually praising the triune God, or Godhead, which consists of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Waite Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 Originally Posted By: Dr. Waite ...PLEASE GIVE ME PROOF THAT SHE SANG THE SAME DOXOLOGY THAT IS SUNG IN SDA CHURCHES TODAY. THE DOXOLOGY CHANGED IN 1985 WITH THE NEW HYMNAL. I think you have your mind made up. Would it make any difference to you if she did sing the doxology? Or will you merely say it doesn't matter? The reason I say this, Dr. Waite, is that I showed you the quotes before. I showed them to you about a year ago, at least once. NO, IT WOULD NOT MAKE A DIFFERENCE BECAUSE ELLEN WHITE TAUGHT THAT JESUS CHRIST IS OUR EXAMPLE IN ALL THINGS. JESUS CHRIST DID NOT WORSHIP THE HOLY SPIRIT AS A DISTINCT PERSON FROM THE FATHER, NOR DID HE SING PRAISES TO THE HOLY SPIRIT AS A DISTINCT PERSON FROM THE FATHER. Quote grw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted April 28, 2012 Moderators Share Posted April 28, 2012 If it makes no difference to you, why did you ask me for proof that she sang it? Now that it has been proved, it really doesn't mean anything, does it? So you must mean that Ellen White urged the church to do wrong and that she preached false doctrine. Is that right? If not, could you please explain? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted April 28, 2012 Moderators Share Posted April 28, 2012 Do you believe that only the Father and the Son were together in the council that planned man's salvation? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted April 28, 2012 Moderators Share Posted April 28, 2012 YES, CHRIST IS GOD (HEBREWS 1:8), BUT HE IS NOT THE "ONLY TRUE GOD" REFERRED TO IN JOHN 17:3 OK, Christ is God. He is God in the highest sense, is He not? If He is not "the only true God," what is He-- a false god? Is He another "God" besides the true God? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Waite Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 If it makes no difference to you, why did you ask me for proof that she sang it? Now that it has been proved, it really doesn't mean anything, does it? So you must mean that Ellen White urged the church to do wrong and that she preached false doctrine. Is that right? If not, could you please explain? ELLEN WHITE DID NOT TEACH FALSE DOCTRINE. SHE TAUGHT JESUS CHRIST IS OUR EXAMPLE IN ALL THINGS. "Christ was our example in all things. As we see His humiliation in the long trial and fast to overcome the temptation of appetite in our behalf, we are to learn how to overcome when we are tempted. If the power of appetite is so strong upon the human family and its indulgence so fearful that the Son of God subjected Himself to such a test, how important that we feel the necessity of having appetite under the control of reason." {Con 50.1} Did Ellen White teach that she is our example in all things?? Quote grw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted April 28, 2012 Moderators Share Posted April 28, 2012 ...YES, CHRIST IS GOD (HEBREWS 1:8), BUT HE IS NOT THE "ONLY TRUE GOD" REFERRED TO IN JOHN 17:3 I'd like to look at John 17: 3 closely here. What is the context of that verse? Is the context that Jesus is reminding the Father that only He alone is God and that Christ is NOT "true God"? Or is the context having to do with the living God vs. the false gods? How do we know the "true God" except through the God whom the Father sent into world? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted April 28, 2012 Moderators Share Posted April 28, 2012 ELLEN WHITE DID NOT TEACH FALSE DOCTRINE. SHE TAUGHT JESUS CHRIST IS OUR EXAMPLE IN ALL THINGS. "Christ was our example in all things. As we see His humiliation in the long trial and fast to overcome the temptation of appetite in our behalf, we are to learn how to overcome when we are tempted. If the power of appetite is so strong upon the human family and its indulgence so fearful that the Son of God subjected Himself to such a test, how important that we feel the necessity of having appetite under the control of reason." {Con 50.1} Yes, Christ is our example for sure, but she also preached that we should sing the doxology. Did she preach error when she preached this? Do you see a contradition between what she did here and what her writings teach in terms of the Godhead? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted April 28, 2012 Moderators Share Posted April 28, 2012 ... JESUS CHRIST DID NOT WORSHIP THE HOLY SPIRIT AS A DISTINCT PERSON FROM THE FATHER, NOR DID HE SING PRAISES TO THE HOLY SPIRIT AS A DISTINCT PERSON FROM THE FATHER. Jesus' teachings in John 14 and 16 definitely show that the Holy Spirit is distinct from the Father and from Christ. The writings of Ellen White show the same thing. In fact, she even said that the Holy Spirit is a "distinct personality." So He is "a divine person," He has "a personality," and "a distinct personality." He is one of "Three living Persons in the heavenly trio" and is a part of "the eternal Godhead." Would you agree that since the Holy Spirit is currently a part of the "eternal Godhead," He must always have been a a part of the "eternal Godhead"? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Waite Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 Originally Posted By: Dr. Waite ELLEN WHITE DID NOT TEACH FALSE DOCTRINE. SHE TAUGHT JESUS CHRIST IS OUR EXAMPLE IN ALL THINGS. "Christ was our example in all things. As we see His humiliation in the long trial and fast to overcome the temptation of appetite in our behalf, we are to learn how to overcome when we are tempted. If the power of appetite is so strong upon the human family and its indulgence so fearful that the Son of God subjected Himself to such a test, how important that we feel the necessity of having appetite under the control of reason." {Con 50.1} Yes, Christ is our example for sure, but she also preached that we should sing the doxology. Did she preach error when she preached this? Do you see a contradition between what she did here and what her writings teach in terms of the Godhead? Yes, I do see a contradiction. There is NO verse in the Bible that I can find that states that we are to worship the HOLY SPIRIT or pray to the HOLY SPIRIT. We are NOT to accept any doctrine unless there is a plain "THUS SAITH THE LORD" to support it. "But God will have a people upon the earth to maintain the Bible, and the Bible only, as the standard of all doctrines, and the basis of all reforms. The opinions of learned men, the deductions of science, the creeds or decisions of ecclesiastical councils, as numerous and discordant as are the churches which they represent, the voice of the majority,-- not one or all of these should be regarded as evidence for or against any point of religious faith. Before accepting any doctrine or precept, we should demand a plain "Thus saith the Lord" in its support." {GC88 595.1} Quote grw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Waite Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 Originally Posted By: Dr. Waite ...YES, CHRIST IS GOD (HEBREWS 1:8), BUT HE IS NOT THE "ONLY TRUE GOD" REFERRED TO IN JOHN 17:3 I'd like to look at John 17: 3 closely here. What is the context of that verse? Is the context that Jesus is reminding the Father that only He alone is God and that Christ is NOT "true God"? Or is the context having to do with the living God vs. the false gods? How do we know the "true God" except through the God whom the Father sent into world? The context is the Jesus Christ is asking his Father to glorify him with the glory He had with his Father before the world was. Jesus Christ used the term "only true God". The word "only" would mean one. Yes, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God (Hebrews 1:8), but he cannot be the only true God because he has a God who he worships. Does the Father of Jesus Christ have a God who he worships?? Quote grw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibs Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Ask yourselves this question of the above verse, Who else could it be but the Father that was in Christ, who else is left for it to be? Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. 1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Waite Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Ask yourselves this question of the above verse, Who else could it be but the Father that was in Christ, who else is left for it to be? Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. 1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. As John 317 advocates (The Father and the Holy Spirit are two distinct persons), did Jesus Christ have two distinct persons dwelling within himself? Quote grw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overaged Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 Why do you ask this? Quote "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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