Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted April 30, 2012 Members Share Posted April 30, 2012 ***drums fingers*** Should groups of people "blame" someone for the sinful works of his/her ancestors? If so, how far should it go? ("Blame" isn't really the right word, but I can't seem to come up with what I want to convey..) There has been several threads recently on the feelings of some African Americans involving the issue of past slavery in America. I think that's a valid claim. One's ancestors "shape" how we think of ourselves. I'm wondering, though, how far should that "blame" go? To what other sinful works? Christianity and the Crusades? I have an ancestor who died in Jerusalem - he was a Crusader. What about the Emperor Constantine changing the worship day to Sunday? Believe it or not, I just traced my genealogy back to Constantine, and beyond that. Perhaps the great travesty of Constantine should be relegated to me.... Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted May 1, 2012 Moderators Share Posted May 1, 2012 on the last point. I guess I would look at ways of finding fairness and solutions, more than at blame. To some extent it's as though I was to keep going into someone's house and stealing their stuff. I do this for years, so my house is all full of great stuff, and theirs is empty. Then I say "Well, it's not about blame, you should just get over it and move on. Let's just start with the stuff we have now..." And, like it or not, if it was my grandpappy who did all the thieving and I'm still living on the proceeds... that ain't fair either. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted May 1, 2012 Members Share Posted May 1, 2012 You bring up an interesting topic Pam. For myself I haven't seen anyone telling anyone that they are to blame. I think what has tried to be conveyed, is that there is a situation in the USA and all parties need to sit down and discuss and talk about how to make this a better world. Its not a matter of blame, its a matter of forgetting what happen and not letting it happen again! How many have tried for years to say that the holocaust didn't happen? Here again its not a matter of, do we blame the Germans or whoever, but lets discuss so that this doesn't happen again. Unfortunately as we've seen from history, its easier said than done. Anyway that's my opinion. Quote phkrause Obstinacy is a barrier to all improvement. - ChL 60 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasd Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 >>Then I say "Well, it's not about blame, you should just get over it and move on. Let's just start with the stuff we have now..." And, like it or not, if it was my grandpappy who did all the thieving and I'm still living on the proceeds... that ain't fair either.<< Well, one gathers that in the land of Oz - there exists a popular sentiment to reparate lands siezed from the Aborigines, yes? I'd like to own an Opal dig. Would I be amiss to assume that should I manage to be adopted by the Aborigines - I may get that Opal dig? Per the above - what was stolen is easily identifiable - lives and land; whereas, that stolen from our slave population earlier-on would be tallied more in the way of punitive damages - quite the evanescent thing... So, given that, one may assume a rather quickly-done reparation in favor of the Aborigines of Australia, yes? Whereas, our problem here seems rather more complex... And that's without addressing the indigenous AmIndians upon whom we committed genocide. I vote "Olly olly oxen free!" and we accept the present as the status quo. Good for me, tough for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasd Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 >>How many have tried for years to say that the holocaust didn't happen? Here again its not a matter of, do we blame the Germans or whoever, but lets discuss so that this doesn't happen again.<< [ed.jasd] My wife is mostly Jewish, but I’m part German – so, you can see that I would have an interest in the subject. So, I ask, “Did the Holocaust happen?” Of course, it did; however, to what extent did it happen and did it track the numbers of deaths occurring in other wars? Let’s see..., Re Auschwitz: The numbers of Jews killed and cremated in Auschwitz range from a high number of 9,000,000 cited by the French documentary “Night and Fog”. to a low of..., 135,000 to 140,000, which number is supplied by the “the International Tracing Service of the Red Cross, which has a complete set of registration documents. This is thought to include a complete set of roll-call data which includes twice daily tallies of those who died. The estimate of 135,500 is roughly corroborated by the "Auschwitz death books." The death books themselves are wartime German camp records, which were captured by the Soviets towards the end of the war, and hidden in Soviet achieves, until released to the Red Cross in 1989. The death books consist of 46 volumes which document each death at Auschwitz (each death certificate consists of the deceased person's full name, profession and religion, date and place of birth, pre- Auschwitz residence, parents' names, time of death, and cause of death as determined by a camp physician). The records for the most important years, 1942 and 1943, are almost complete (there are also a few volumes for the year 1941, but none for the year 1944 or January 1945 (when Auschwitz was evacuated)). The Auschwitz death books contain the death certificates of some 69,000 individuals, of whom about 30,000 were listed as Jews (a point of salience). You may view various entries in the Auschwitz Death Books by clicking on links to the Auschwitz museum. [ed.jasd: bolded and italicized] The Grand Total? Using all available wartime records from the various camps it has been estimated that between 400,000 and 500,000 people died in the entire German concentration camp system (from all causes).” One can do worse than place credibility in the International Red Cross; however, this is a no-win subject upon which to dwell – so I, in the main, simply let it slide... Que sera, sera. There is enough evidence that may be researched to satisfy anyone's druthers - wherever they lie..., some of it absolutely audacious in its proffer - and some of it revealing, to say the least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 Quote: There is enough evidence that may be researched to satisfy anyone's druthers - wherever they lie..., some of it absolutely audacious in its proffer - and some of it revealing, to say the least. OTOH, in the U.S. Quote: Car Accident Statistics Car-Accidents.com Home Page Car Crash Stats: There were nearly 6,420,000 auto accidents in the United States in 2005. The financial cost of these crashes is more than 230 Billion dollars. 2.9 million people were injured and 42,636 people killed. About 115 people die every day in vehicle crashes in the United States -- one death every 13 minutes. In 2003 there were 6,328,000 car accidents in the US. There were 2.9 million injuries and 42,643 people were killed in auto accidents. In 2002, there were an estimated 6,316,000 car accidents in the USA. There were about 2.9 million injuries and 42,815 people were killed in auto accidents in 2002. There were an estimated 6,356,000 car accidents in the US in 2000. There were about 3.2 million injuries and 41,821 people were killed in auto accidents in 2000 based on data collected by the Federal Highway Administration. Perhaps we ought to consider whether or not Henry Ford's family, descendants of the inventor of the modern mode of transportation ought to be blamed for the multiplied millions of injured and dead, just in the U.S. of A. Seems only fitting. God blesses! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasd Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 >>I'm wondering, though, how far should that "blame" go? To what other sinful works? Christianity and the Crusades? I have an ancestor who died in Jerusalem - he was a Crusader. What about the Emperor Constantine changing the worship day to Sunday? Believe it or not, I just traced my genealogy back to Constantine, and beyond that. Perhaps the great travesty of Constantine should be relegated to me....<< Having a wife who spends more time researching her genealogy than she does cooking chops and gravy for my breakfast - and seeing all the avenues she takes to gain the smallest clue - I say re your genealogical efforts, "That's fantastic!" Nevertheless, I now know that you and yourn are to blame for our imminent collapse as a society... 'swhy I bought lots of marshmallows - anticipatin' the Summer fires of '012 - as harbinger. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted May 1, 2012 Author Members Share Posted May 1, 2012 thanks to all for your input!!! LOL jasd, I've been very busy lately with genealogy... the only reason I could go back so far on the ancestry is because my father's side has descended from English/Welsh/Irish royalty, and the data has always been kept on them. The Welsh royalty married into the Roman nobility, and that's how I could trace it back to Constantine, and back further to Marcus Aurelius...and even further back to about 115BC to Marcus Licinius Crassus. Genealogy is kinda cool. My cousin traced one of my mom's lines back to the Mayflower (yes, Tom W., our ancestors were shipmates!!!).. Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 Genealogy is kinda cool. My cousin traced one of my mom's lines back to the Mayflower (yes, Tom W., our ancestors were shipmates!!!).. Not wanting to seem as one-up-manship, but I've traced my lineage back to Jesus. "and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;" Ephesians 3:9 NKJV God blesses! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted May 2, 2012 Members Share Posted May 2, 2012 Well guys that's great and I love it, but if I actually could trace my ancestry back beyond my fathers father, I would get all the way to Abraham. At least! :) Quote phkrause Obstinacy is a barrier to all improvement. - ChL 60 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 Well guys that's great and I love it, but if I actually could trace my ancestry back beyond my fathers father, I would get all the way to Abraham. At least! Quote For what will a man be profited, if he gains the whole world, and forfeits his soul? Mat. 16:26Please, support the JDRF and help find a cure for Type 1 Diabetes. Please, support the March of Dimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kevin H Posted May 2, 2012 Moderators Share Posted May 2, 2012 If you study out the people who had curses in the Deuteronomic History (Joshua-Kings) most of them (maybe even all of them) are the ancestors of the prophet Jeremiah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasd Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 >>English/Welsh/Irish royalty, and the data has always been kept on them. The Welsh royalty married into the Roman nobility, and that's how I could trace it back to Constantine, and back further to Marcus Aurelius...and even further back to about 115BC to Marcus Licinius Crassus.<< Oy! Oy! Oy!—I’m looking at 115 BC! ...ain not never heard of anyone tracing their ancestry back that far. I read about him in Colleen McCullough’s ‘Rome’ series! Sheesh, I don’t think I can trace mine past ol’ granpappy... what a cuss. Anyway, I printed out the above and the next time I want my chops and gravy – I’m goin’ to walk over and lay it down on top of the little lady’s charts and books – and say, “No royalty on them thar charts, eh girl?—give it up and come cook some chops for me.” Of course, I’ll smile real nice like. I do give her credit though, as she’s been able to trace her ancestry back to old Spain, Italy, and Germany. My second wife traced hers back past the Mayflower into Britain, France, and Belgium. She is now a prideful and happy Daughter of the American Revolution – so I tell my son to respect his mom as she’s given him bloodline whereas, I’ve only given him orneriness. When you’ve traced your line further back than Crassus – I want to hear the yell all the way down here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 the only reason I could go back so far on the ancestry is because my father's side has descended from English/Welsh/Irish royalty, and the data has always been kept on them. The Welsh royalty married into the Roman nobility, and that's how I could trace it back to Constantine, and back further to Marcus Aurelius...and even further back to about 115BC to Marcus Licinius Crassus. When I was a young teenager my gramma on my mom's side told me she did a genealogy and arrived at the same source,Marcus Aurelius,so maybe we're related! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 My second wife traced hers back past the Mayflower into Britain, France, and Belgium. She is now a prideful and happy Daughter of the American Revolution – My gramma on my dad's side was a proud DAR.Hey, maybe we're related too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasd Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 >>My gramma on my dad's side was a proud DAR.Hey, maybe we're related too!<< Hush your mouth lest it be so! I wouldn't wish that on anyone unnecessarily - let alone a seemingly nice guy like you... Re the DAR: sadly, WASPs have now been for awhile - a minority in the land of their fathers - so much for progeny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted May 3, 2012 Moderators Share Posted May 3, 2012 There has been several threads recently on the feelings of some African Americans involving the issue of past slavery in America. I think that's a valid claim. One's ancestors "shape" how we think of ourselves. As a point of clarity. I don't think the threads were about the feeling of AA about slavery. Slavery was injected by non-African Americans. The suggestion was that AA had not forgiven whites for slavery or are still angry about it. It was a diversion. Its' a way of not addressing current issues which is what the threads were primarily about. NB there was only on AA who posted on those threads btw. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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