Did Jesus die the 2nd death?

[Yong T Tay]

"Jesus didn't come to save our natures....Jesus came to save us from the curse of the law...the 2nd death."

This is a very true statement and I don't dispute it. Jesus didn't come to save our natures, He came to save us from our sinful fallen human natures, He came to destroy them so that He can replace in us with His perfect sinless human natures which He lived for 33 1/2 years on earth.

"Jesus (at the incarnation) had to assume "us"....Not our body, not our nature, but the whole fallen, man."

Exactly. He became the whole fallen sinful man. When He died on the cross, His whole person or entity died the 2nd death. How did He came back to life when there is no resurrection for those who die the 2nd death. So far my question has not been answered yet.

Thanks,

Yongttay

[wicklunds]

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You need to try to ween yourself off of TOTALLY relying on Paul's version of events

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Acts 9:15: But the Lord said to Him, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to carry my name [or to bear my truth] before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel.

• Paul, a slave of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle [but notice this next statement] and set apart for the gospel of God. Rom 1:1

Paul was the Theologian of the New Testament. Almost half of the New Testament is Paul’s writing. He was set apart for the preaching of the gospel of God! Think about it…the other disciples wrote on the life of Christ, but Paul did much more….He explained the gospel!!!

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We still don't interpret the whole of the Bible through Paul!! Sorry to disappoint your plans to disjoint the whole scriptural account because of the wresting of the Pauline epistles. If it were a right dividing of the word of truth then you might have a bonafide argument, but you havent even addressed the man's initial question. You are sullying up the thread needlessly with your Pauline, Sequieraine, obscurantism.

[Ron Corson]

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Many Adventists believe that Jesus died the 2nd death. How did Jesus came back to life when there is no resurrections for those who die the 2nd death? Can anyone help me with answers.

Thanks,

Yongttay

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What you have witnessed here is the complete failure to answer your question. The reason is that to answer your question they must redefine the 2nd death. Scripture says there is no resurrection from the 2nd death the SDA tradition says Jesus not only died the 2nd death but was resurrected from it. The requirement for the 2nd death is to have died once previously, and be supernaturally raised for the judgment. Again Jesus did not die twice.

And lastly for those who say Jesus suffered the wrath of God. There is not one New Testament verse that says Jesus suffered the wrath of God or anything like that. The Bible is very clear that men killed Jesus, the book of Acts states this 5 times. Again the 2nd death is not caused by man since the 2nd life is a supernatural event whereby man is raised from death to stand in the judgment.

So the simple answer to your question is no Jesus never died the 2nd death. when the Bible talks about the result of sin being death it is not referring to the second death. Because were it not for the supernatural gift of God in life after death, death would be the end forever. God raises at the judgment some to life and some to everlasting destruction. It is those who have rejected God and stand at the judgment as rejectors of God that will suffer the 2nd death, the cessation of the supernatural life that they were temporarily granted to see their life in respect to the God that they have rejected.

Hope that helps. It is important to remember that the only place in the Bible that talks about the 2nd death is in the book of Revelation and it does so exclusively in the terms of resurrected life as part of the judgment scenero. Being a highly symbolic book too much speculation on the judgment scenes may not always be helpful as our expectations of the future are often colored by thoughts that may not be appliable.

[Denise]

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I think 2 Cor 2:17,18 (RSV) sums it up nicely:

17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord [His love see Ex 33:18], are being changed into his likeness from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

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Hi Robert, I love reading your posts, for it is truth, and is such a blessing! I am learning so much by reading them! Thanks so much for telling the good news of the gospel. I am trying to find this verse you quoted as 2 Cor 2:17, 18. I looked it up there, but didn't find it there, can you tell me where I can find it? I really liked that verse, as I do so many others! lol Thanks, God Bless. Denise :-)

[wicklunds]

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First of all Christ didn't die just for those who believe and keep His commandments. That is a lie. He died for "all men"....In fact all men died "in Him":

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mmmm He might have died in order that all men might have the choice to choose life, but this says something altogether different...

Mat 20:28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."

Christ, the omniscient, knew not all people would choose to obey and follow His leading people!!! Don't let overzealous

Pauline gospelizers interpret the scriptures for you.

[Robert]

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How did He came back to life when there is no resurrection for those who die the 2nd death. So far my question has not been answered yet.

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I answered that question.... Christ’s divinity did not die...our sinful life from Adam died eternally. Sunday morning Christ gave of Himself (i.e., from His divinity) and raised us as a glorified people now able to walk through walls...no longer flesh and blood. Hence our sinful life died eternally at the cross.

[Robert]

"The many" examined in its context yields "all"....Read Paul again.

[bevin]

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Can anyone help me with answers.

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Lets blow away all the theological sophistry and nonsense.

There is only ONE kind of death. Some people get to do it TWICE. The "second death" is what happens at the end of the thousand years. Noone has done it yet.

We are nothing more (or less) than an incredibly complex chemical reaction. Put all the right atoms in the right places, and - voila - there is me.

Not all those atoms are needed to keep my memories, instincts, behavior patterns intact. Cutting off my arm, pouring glucose into my veins, or teaching me new tricks changes me, but does not make a new me.

When we "die" there are two steps.

First we loose consciousness - the ability of our brains to detect our environment and to form thoughts and memories. The critical and delicate chemical reactions in the brain have been disrupted.

Then we loose our chemicals - their own reactions destroy them, or we are cremated, or we get eaten by other organisms.

Consider, for example, the Japanese at ground zero in Hiroshima - instantly vaporized. Consider Terry Schiavo - critical brain chemistry destroyed but much of the rest functional.

God has the power to put together a new collection of atoms into the right configuration to restore all the memories, etc. that make "me". This is no different to a computer user backing-up and restoring their data.

So - did Jesus die the Second Death?

Of course not. The only difference between the First and Second is WHEN it happens and the fact that God won't resurrect you afterwards, not WHAT happens.

All this stuff about 'separation from God' etc. is just fancy nonsense.

/Bevin

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. Ezekiel 18: 20. Jesus never sinned so He had the power to take up His life at the call of our Father. If we die the 2nd death we have no power to take up our lives because we have sinned. By becoming one with us He could die for sin and we (humanity) being one with Him, through the flesh, died with Him at the cross. That's how God can justify us by grace and not contradict what is written in Ezekiel 18: 20.

If we want to experience that justification we must believe that God justifies the ungodly, (sinners) not by our works for we can only sin without Him, but by faith.

This answers the lies of Satan that started sin in Eden. Satan described God as selfish and Eve believed the lie and Adam went along with it. So death and sin were passed on to us all. Now we have the question asked to us, "Do you really believe God is love and would die the 2nd death and that He will justfy you the way you are?"

Your answer reveals what you believe God thinks about you and what you think about Him. If we say no, then we are left with our own works as a means of justification. If we say yes, then our life changes and we can rest assured that our salvation is secure in Christ. Walk, (or live) in this truth, not being tossed around by feelings or what you see or any teachings that may disturb you. As we live in that truth, God (the Trinity) will be revealed more and more and as we behold we are changed from glory to glory. All this is possible because Christ was willing to die the 2nd death.

Hope that helps

Norman

[wicklunds]

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"The many" examined in its context yields "all"....Read Paul again.

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I could read Paul a million times but I would never see what you are saying it to mean.

[Robert]

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So - did Jesus die the Second Death?

Of course not.

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Right...our fallen humanity died eternally "in Christ"....No coming back! That's the 2nd death - the no hope of a resurrection death....

In exchange Christ gave of Himself....Therefore "in Christ" we have a glorified humantiy in the heavenly places. See Eph 2:6 (if you even use your Bible)!

[Robert]

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"The many" examined in its context yields "all"....Read Paul again.

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I could read Paul a million times but I would never see what you are saying it to mean.

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Compare Romans 5:18 to verse 19

• 18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

  19 For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous....

"The many" = "all men"

[wicklunds]

no... Just because Paul says that all men are justified, not all men would choose to be justified and in the end, saved. Robert, I hope you are not deceiving people by teaching universal salvation without free will!!! Dont be deceived and don't deceive.

"The many" does not equal "all men"

[bevin]

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Right...our fallen humanity died eternally "in Christ"....No coming back! That's the 2nd death - the no hope of a resurrection death....

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Hey, Robert and I agree on something!

Jesus died once.

People who are saved die either zero on one times and end up alive forever.

People who are not saved died either one or two times and end up no longer existing at all forever.

/Bevin

[Robert]

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no... Just because Paul says that all men are justified, not all men would choose to be justified and in the end, saved. Robert, I hope you are not deceiving people by teaching universal salvation without free will!!! Don’t be deceived and don't deceive.

"The many" does not equal "all men"

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See...there's your problem. You do not even understand the fundamentals of the gospel you purport to know....

The Bible clearly teaches that Christ saved all mankind at the cross. Since you deny this truth you naturally present a perverted gospel of works....

Let's go to the clearest Bible statements on this issue...It is found in Eph 2:4-10

• 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions [sinful, condemned and under law], made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Please note that God saved you "in Christ" when you were dead in transgressions....He linked you together with Christ and hence YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED! Note the past tense....

• 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus,

Christ has saved you and has taken your glorified life into heaven itself....You can't add your works to your fully restored life "in Christ"...."In Him" YOU ARE COMPLETE.

• 7 in order that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

Eventually you became an individual and God revealed to you "the riches of His grace...in Christ Jesus." God used someone or something to introduce you to the good news."

• 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, that no one should boast.

Again, God saved you in Christ some 2000 years ago....As an individual you received this by faith. Faith does not save...because "in Him" you already have it....But you do need to receive the gospel....Yes you were saved 2000 years ago, but when God invites you to accept His "finished work"...well, you would be crazy not to...

• 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Because Christ defeated the law of sin (self-love) in our humanity some 2000 years ago, He is willing to help you to experience that reality. The fruits do not add to your glorified life in Him....What is "in Christ" can't be touched...it is a righteousness that fully qualifies you now and in the judgment.

Rob

[Yong T Tay]

Quote Norman:

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die. Ezekiel 18: 20. Jesus never sinned so He had the power to take up His life at the call of our Father. If we die the 2nd death we have no power to take up our lives because we have sinned. By becoming one with us He could die for sin and we (humanity) being one with Him, through the flesh, died with Him at the cross. That's how God can justify us by grace and not contradict what is written in Ezekiel 18: 20."

I have not been able to do any posting until today. I would like to thank every one who try to help me with answers to my question.

The above quote by Norman is the answer I have been looking for. Had Jesus Himself committed one single sin, He could not have been able to come back to life. The key to Jesus being able to come back to life from the eternal death is His 33 1/2 years of sinless living inspite of the fallen sinful human nature that He took from us. Death could not keep Him there. For the law to be absolutely just, it has to release Jesus from the death prisonhouse. Thanks Norman.

Thanks All,

yongttay

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Yongttay,

I'm glad I was able to help.

Take care and God bless.

Norman

[Robert]

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Had Jesus Himself committed one single sin, He could not have been able to come back to life.

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Just remember that Christ never died! Of course I am talking of Christ as God....What died was the humanity that Christ assumed.

Now if Christ as God had sinned...well, I don't even want to think about it.

Lucifer sinned and look at all the terrible things...but He wasn't God! If Jesus would have sinned He would have joined Lucifer and together they would have opposed God. Terrible....But of course the Trinity knew this wouldn't happen long before the incarnation.

[Yong T Tay]

"Just remember that Christ never died! Of course I am talking of Christ as God....What died was the humanity that Christ assumed.- Robert"

If Christ as God had never died and only the humanity that Christ assumed that died, then Christ did not really died. He simply let the humanity that He assumed to die. Is that what you are saying? That would mean there was no sacrifice from Christ or God. Lucifer could not stop laughing at this joke.

yongttay

[LifeHiscost]

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inspite of the fallen sinful human nature that He took from us.

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Not to be picky, but Jesus did not have a sinful nature. If He did He would have had to die for His own sinfulness. His death was caused by "becoming sin" for us, yet not being found with sin in Himself. Only a perfectly sinless Creator could justifiably substitute Himself for the just penalty of death deserved by the sinful. It was the second death He died as it is the second death He takes away from those who deserve that death. Each man bears their own first death.

[:"red"] "....it is appointed unto men once to die" [/] Hebrews 9:27 KJV

[:"red"] "For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." [/] 2 Cor 5:21 NKJV

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Life,

If Christ did not have our sinful nature then what do these verses mean?

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

God bless,

Norman

[LifeHiscost]

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Norman said:

Hi Life,

If Christ did not have our sinful nature then what do these verses mean?

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

God bless,

Norman

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The only way I would be able to explain it, in order to be consistent with all other Scripture considering His assumed nature, would be to say there is a difference between "the sinful nature", and the "physical nature", as expressed in some translations.

[:"red"] "Since, therefore, [these His] children share in flesh and blood [in the physical nature of human beings], He [Himself] in a similar manner partook of the same [nature]....[" [/] Heb 2:14 AMP brackets theirs

[:"red"] "Which of you can truthfully accuse Me of sin? And since I am telling you the truth, why don't you believe Me? " [/] John 8:46 NLT

[:"red"] "For we do not have a High Priest Who is unable to understand and sympathize and have a shared feeling with our weaknesses and infirmities and liability to the assaults of temptation, but One Who has been tempted in every respect as we are, yet without sinning." [/] Hebrews 4:15 AMP

I have in previous moments questioned how Jesus could sympathize with me when never being in the position of having tasted purposeful sinful conduct. But I do believe if I could answer that question, I could answer this one__

[:"red"] "[That is] because the mind of the flesh [with its carnal thoughts and purposes] is hostile to God, for it does not submit itself to God's Law; indeed it cannot.

So then those who are living the life of the flesh [catering to the appetites and impulses of their carnal nature] cannot please or satisfy God, or be acceptable to Him.

But you are not living the life of the flesh, you are living the life of the Spirit, if the [Holy] Spirit of God [really] dwells within you [directs and controls you]. But if anyone does not possess the [Holy] Spirit of Christ, he is none of His [he does not belong to Christ, is not truly a child of God]." [/] Rom 8:7-9 AMP

Blessings!

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Life

I have just a moment to reply before I go to work. Here's what Hebrews is saying. Jesus had to take our flesh, fallen as was handed to to Him from Adam,havest as we are. He was tempted as we are but never sinned. If Jesus, our Lord and Savior, did not have the same sinful flesh that we have, then He could not be our example or be our substitute in death.

Got to go, have a great day

Norman

[LifeHiscost]

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Norman said:

Hi Life

I have just a moment to reply before I go to work. Here's what Hebrews is saying. Jesus had to take our flesh, fallen as was handed to to Him from Adam,havest as we are. He was tempted as we are but never sinned. If Jesus, our Lord and Savior, did not have the same sinful flesh that we have, then He could not be our example or be our substitute in death.

Got to go, have a great day

Norman

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If you mean Jesus was tempted the same as Adam before he (Adam) succumbed to temptation, I agree. Whether or not the correct understanding of this is important to our salvation probably depends upon whether we accept it according to the way Jesus understands it, and passes on that information to us. It does appear that you might not understand it the same way I do.

I do not accept the Scriptures given as indicating any sinfulness whatsoever connected to Jesus, except what He accepted as from us, that for which He received our penalty of death. Had He not been assaulted, unjustifiably since He had no sin, by the prince of darkness, He would/could have lived without seeing death. Of course then those He came to save could not have been.

[:"red"] "Keep my commandments, and live; and my law as the apple of thine eye." [/] Proverbs 7:2 KJV

[:"red"] "For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them." [/] Romans 10:5 KJV

This Jesus did without flaw.

Blessings!

[Robert]

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For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them." Romans 10:5 KJV

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Why are you quoting the above out of its context? Are you trying to put believers under law?

The context:

4 For Christ is the end [completion] of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness [in other words you must obey in order to live]....8 “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10 for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.”

And BTW, Jesus as God had to assume our sinful, fallen life in order to meet the legal demands of God's law. Rejecting this truth is damnable (see Gal 1:6-8)