Did Jesus die the 2nd death?

[LifeHiscost]

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And BTW, Jesus as God had to assume our sinful, fallen life in order to meet the legal demands of God's law. Rejecting this truth is damnable (see Gal 1:6-8)

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Please feel free,Robert, to give the Scripture that states Jesus to have a fallen human nature.

[:"red"] "For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin." [/] Hebrews 4:15 NASB

Keep the faith!

[Robert]

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Please feel free, Robert, to give the Scripture that states Jesus to have [ASSUMED] a fallen human nature.

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No problem:

Romans 6:6 "...Our old self was crucified with Him, that our body of sin might be done away...."

Did you get that? "Our old self" died in Christ so that our sinful life might be done away with.

Romans 7:4 "you also were made to die to the Law in the body of Christ...."

Who is the "you" specifically? Context: Romans 7:1 "...do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?"

Paul is talking to the believers in Roman. Are they sinners...or better yet, are they sinful? YES... So somehow these sinners died to the law in the body of Christ!

Generally speaking it refers to our death in Him. Since we too are sinners (saved by grace) then our sinful life also died "in Christ" some 2000 years ago.

Jesus didn't come to save the righteous, He came to legally redeem sinners. He did this by assuming our fallen, sinful life under the curse.

Rob

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Life, I'm glad I'm able to share with you. There is a great blessing in knowing what nature our Lord and Savior had. This shows us how much God loves us; that he would take on our fallen nature. See these verses.

Phi 2: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

This means He took on our nature, if He didn’t then how could He condemn sin in the flesh? If He overcame in some different nature or flesh it would do us no good.

Romans 8: 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Look at these verses to help you see the graciousness and love of our Lord.

Heb 2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, what is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visitest him? 7. Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

Notice that this is talking about mankind; people like you and me.

Vs. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. 10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

Look at the language that is used to describe Jesus: who was made a little lower than the angels & crowned with glory and honor. That’s the same as mankind with fallen natures described above.

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

The seed of Abraham means our fallen nature. Galatians 4:4 But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Heb 4: 12. Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

He can understand us because He had our fallen nature but never gave in to the cravings it had or the temptations of the devil.

John 19: 34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. 35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.

Why did John have to include that, what was so important about this fact? This is referring to the fallen nature that we have and Jesus took on. Again Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh.

And 1 John 4: 1, Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God:

Jesus did not come as a spirit everyone can plainly see that, then what would cause John to write this? Could it be that he was talking about Jesus’ nature being just like ours? I don’t see any other reason for John to say that especially if you look at it in context with all the other scripture that talks about His nature being the same as ours.

It’s a beautiful doctrine and I don’t know why it isn’t clear. Jesus came here in a body like ours. That was a huge sacrifice and He will keep the human body (although glorified now) forever; as it is written God gave His Son not lent. Look at these verses in 1 Cor 15:

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits (has to be of the same nature to be a firstfruit)of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. 29

Jesus took our fallen nature to reveal to us what man can become now with a full surrender and what man will become at His return. If you have a Jesus with a different nature, that is not fallen, then we can never be made like Him (character) on this earth. And that is not scriptural read this 2 Peter 1: 9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11 for so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

There are many texts in the Bible that state that Jesus had our fallen nature. They either outright state it or you have to see it by the Holy Spirit. And when it’s understood the depths of what God has done and will do to save us, a greater love and appreciation will be revealed in the life of His followers. By beholding we are changed and if you see a God that loves only a little you will only be changed into that image.

I have tried to use as many Bible text as possible, there are many more but I don’t want to have a super long post. I can add more at some other time. I will pray that you see this beautiful truth. It does not lessen anything in Jesus but it exalts Him because of His sacrifice to save us, reveal the Father’s love and destroy the devils and his works.

God bless,

Norman

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

These verses refer to Christ and help to show His nature. It just came to mind as I was reading.

Deuteronomy 18

15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; 16 According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not. 17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. 18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

hope it helps my friend,

Norman

[LifeHiscost]

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Norman said:

These verses refer to Christ and help to show His nature.

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Norm & Robert,

I know your trying the best you can to get me to see the Scripture in the same light as yourself. However the more times it is said, 'This is what those words mean', or 'This is what the Lord means', the less light I see in them. I've found studying the Scripture for myself, while asking for our Father's Spirit to give me understanding has become a habit that makes all other authors who believe themselves capable of setting me on the right track, far less effective.

Thank you for your effort. I'm sure that if we each are more concerned about glorifying Jesus as Lord, than we are about proving ourselves right, none of us will ever get too far off track.

[:"red"] "And when I am lifted up on the cross, I will draw everyone to myself." [/] John 12:32 NLT

[:"red"] "And I know his instructions lead to eternal life; so I say whatever the Father tells me to say!" [/] John 12:50 NLT

Blessings!

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Life, the reason I posted these verses is because you asked for verses that prove Jesus had our fallen nature. Through years of study and prayer God has revealed these things to me and I share them as I am moved by the Holy Spirit. I hope you do continue to study prayerfully this topic because it will make a difference in your experience with God and others. It will deepen your love for God. That is my hope for you, not to try and convert you to my way of thinking.

You need to understand that I am not saying that Jesus ever sinned. I am stating only what the Bible plainly reveals, He had our fallen nature yet did not sin.

As I was praying and studying this morning I found some other verses. If this were a private conversation I would not share any more verses, but since others are reading this post I will post these beautiful verses from Hebrews chapter 5 and Revelation 3.

1 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins: 2 Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity. 3 And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins.

And,

4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron. 5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made a high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. 6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchisedec. (Note that Christ did not glorify Himself in any way to become our high priest and that includes taking on a different nature)

And

Vs. 7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; 8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him

And

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. KJV

21 He who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I myself conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. RSV version. We can only overcome if the we have the same opportunities and nature as He had.

I hope you can prayerfully study these verses and open your mind to the Spirit of God and not simply think this is some human attempt to change your way of thinking.

God bless my friend

Norman

[Robert]

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Norman said:

Hi Life, the reason I posted these verses is because you asked for verses that prove Jesus

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our fallen nature.

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Of course by native right Jesus as God didn't "have" our sinful nature. The humanity that He became (while fully remaining Himself (God)) contained our sinful nature....But to say Christ by native right "had" a sinful nature would make Him a sinner. It was always "our" fallen nature.

Here’s AT Jones:

“He [Jesus] was made under the law, He was made all that it means to be under the law. He was made guilty; He was made condemned; He was made a curse. But bear in mind forever that all this He "was made." He was none of this of Himself, of native fault, but all of it he "was made."….He was made under the law to redeem them that are under the law. He was made a curse to redeem them that are under the curse because of being under the law.

[LifeHiscost]

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He had our fallen nature yet did not sin.

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[:"red"] "A third time he said to them, Why? What wrong has He done? I have found [no offense or crime or guilt] in Him nothing deserving of death" [/] Luke 23:22 AMP

[:"red"] "Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me" [/] John 8:46

KJV

[:"red"] "But I say, anyone who even looks at a woman with lust in his eye has already committed adultery with her in his heart." [/] Matt 5:28 NLT

Because I do not reach the same conclusions you reach from the same Scripture, I am satisfied that your description of

a closed mind on my part will have to rest there with you.

As you have described, other people on this forum are involved in this discourse, therefore I expect it is best left for me to allow the Spirit to move upon them according to His best efforts.

For the record, it is my belief that when Jesus condescended to take upon Himself human form, it was the same nature received by Adam directly from our Father before Adam's transgression, when Adam was still capable of resisting temptation without any other powers than he already had received in himself.

This condition in itself would be evidence that neither Adam or Eve were left without the necessary spiritual strength to combat temptation, before they first succumbed to the serpent's voice, as proven by Jesus' ability to overcome the worst of temptations with the power our Father left Him with at the beginning of His journey of the flesh on this earth.

[:"red"] "But I do nothing without consulting the Father. I judge as I am told. And my judgment is absolutely just, because it is according to the will of God who sent me; it is not merely my own." [/] John 5:30 NLT

We each know we are all flawed individuals, and therefore subject to mistake. However when the previous statement is followed as revealed by Jesus, we can have the same successes as Jesus.

[:"red"] " Therefore be imitators of God as dear children." [/] Ephesians 5:1 NKJV

[:"red"] "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."[/] 1 John 1:7 KJV

[:"red"] "....apart from me you can do nothing"[/] John 15:5

[:"red"] "I am able to do nothing from Myself [independently, of My own accord--but only as I am taught by God and as I get His orders]. Even as I hear, I judge [i decide as I am bidden to decide. As the voice comes to Me, so I give a decision], and My judgment is right (just, righteous), because I do not seek or consult My own will [i have no desire to do what is pleasing to Myself, My own aim, My own purpose] but only the will and pleasure of the Father Who sent Me. " [/] John 5:30 AMP

When we as humans follow the example of Jesus as He walked this earth, we will have the same victories. The fact that we don't is evidence enough that the nature of Jesus was Adam's nature before the fall. A nature that we do not have.

[:"red"] "And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter (Counselor, Helper, Intercessor, Advocate, Strengthener, and Standby), that He may remain with you forever" [/] John 14:16 AMP

[:"red"] "MY LITTLE children, I write you these things so that you may not violate God's law and sin. But if anyone should sin, we have an Advocate (One Who will intercede for us) with the Father--[it is] Jesus Christ [the all] righteous [upright, just, Who conforms to the Father's will in every purpose, thought, and action]. " [/] 1 John 2:2 AMP

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

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ROBERT said:

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Norman said:

Hi Life, the reason I posted these verses is because you asked for verses that prove Jesus

had

our fallen nature.

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Of course by native right Jesus as God didn't "have" our sinful nature. The humanity that He became (while fully remaining Himself (God)) contained our sinful nature....But to say Christ by native right "had" a sinful nature would make Him a sinner. It was always "our" fallen nature.

Here’s AT Jones:

“He [Jesus] was made under the law, He was made all that it means to be under the law. He was made guilty; He was made condemned; He was made a curse. But bear in mind forever that all this He "was made." He was none of this of Himself, of native fault, but all of it he "was made."….He was made under the law to redeem them that are under the law. He was made a curse to redeem them that are under the curse because of being under the law.

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That's closer to what I believe, Robert. However my conclusion of that is probably partially influenced by my recognition that the penalty Jesus received was rightfully my penalty, and Jesus deserved none of it, ie:His nature.

[:"red"] "But the other one reproved him, saying, Do you not even fear God, seeing you yourself are under the same sentence of condemnation and suffering the same penalty?

And we indeed suffer it justly, receiving the due reward of our actions; but this Man has done nothing out of the way [nothing strange or eccentric or perverse or unreasonable].

Then he said to Jesus, Lord, remember me when You come in Your kingly glory!

And He answered him, Truly I tell you today, you shall be with Me in Paradise." [/] Luke 23:40-43 AMP

[Robert]

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...but this Man has done nothing out of the way

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True...Jesus never sinned, however the humanity that He took into Himself was our sinful, fallen humanity that is under the curse.

The Romans/Jews had no legal right to crucify Christ for He was without sin. He lived a perfect life of obedience to God's law in our fallen humanity. Nevertheless that humanity stood condemned since it came from Adam. Hence according to God's law (not man's) our humanity had to die "in Him". That's why Paul can say, "You died to the law in the body of Christ".

Here's a somewhat limited example:

Let's say I have a Bible. It represents Jesus as God. It is fully sinless.

Let's say there's a Playboy (but not at my house) It, of course, represents sin.

Now what happens if I place the Playboy in the Bible? Does the Playboy become the Bible? No...the two have become one (because all you can see is the Bible) yet they are distinct.

Now if I burn the Bible, what happens to the Playboy? Right, it burns too. In other words the history of the Playboy becomes the history of the Bible.

If I could some how resurrect the Bible what would the Playboy look like? It would be sinless....The ladies would be pictured in a Bible study fully clothed!

Does that make sense?

So when God put your old, sinful life "in Christ" Jesus didn't become you...He remained Himself (God).

Now when He tasted death you died "in Him." Hence the law has been legally satisfied.

In the resurrection God raised you "in Christ" with a glorified, sinless, immortal human life and took it to heaven "in Christ Jesus."

At the 2nd coming you receive this "life" now residing in Him in the heavenly places.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Amen to that Robert.

Norman

[Robert]

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi life, for the record, I am not saying your are closed minded, I was saying that I would be praying for God to open you mind to this truth. If you were closed minded you would believe in God

I do have some questions for you about what you stated for the record. You said,

"For the record, it is my belief that when Jesus condescended to take upon Himself human form, it was the same nature received by Adam directly from our Father before Adam's transgression, when Adam was still capable of resisting temptation without any other powers than he already had received in himself."

How could Jesus have Adam's unfallen nature if He was born of a woman who had a fallen nature? Didn't He inherit His mother's flesh? If not, can you show me in the Bible how you come to this conclusion? I am not trying to be contrary, I really want to understand how you come to this conclusion.

The other questions I have are; What difference would it make if Jesus had a fallen nature as I believe or if He had the nature of Adam before his fall as you believe?

Since you mentioned Jesus temptation in the wilderness can you answer the above in context of His conflict with Satan in the wilderness.

eg.When He was tempted by Satan in the wilderness what advantage would He have possessing Adam's unfallen nature? What advantage would He have possessing Adam's nature after he sinned? Or, what disadvangtages in both cases?

I'm sure that you must have thought of these things at some point. If you could explain this I would be thankfull. Again, I truly want to understand.

Thanks much,

Norman

[LifeHiscost]

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Norman said:

If you were closed minded you would believe in God

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Typo? BTW I'm a seed sower, not too good at cultivating. I leave most of that to the Holy Spirit. I'm hoping the texts below, with a little commentary will answer most of the questions in your post.

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I do have some questions for you about what you stated for the record. You said,

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"For the record, it is my belief that when Jesus condescended to take upon Himself human form, it was the same nature received by Adam directly from our Father before Adam's transgression, when Adam was still capable of resisting temptation without any other powers than he already had received in himself."

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>>How could Jesus have Adam's unfallen nature if He was born of a woman who had a fallen nature?<<

The other questions I have are; **What difference would it make if Jesus had a fallen nature as I believe or if He had the nature of Adam before his fall as you believe?**

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Re: >> << Not fully sure on this one unless the texts below answer your question.

[:"red"] ".....an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream. "Joseph, son of David," the angel said, "do not be afraid to go ahead with your marriage to Mary. For the child within her has been conceived by the Holy Spirit." [/] Matt 1:20 NLT

[:"red"] "Mary asked the angel, "But how can I have a baby? I am a virgin."Luke 1:34" [/]

[:"red"] "Mary responded, "I am the Lord's servant, and I am willing to accept whatever he wants. May everything you have said come true." And then the angel left." [/] Luke 1:38 NLT

Re: ** ** You recall the sacrificial ceremony from the Old Testament for the sin offering required a lamb without blemish? That sacrifice was representing Jesus, the Lamb of God. If that Lamb had a blemished nature of it's own, it would have had to die for its' own sin. It would not then have been sufficient to meet the requirements of taking the penalty for other's sin.

[:"red"] "Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:" [/] Exodus 12:5 KJV

[:"red"] "The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look! There is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!" [/] John 1:29 NLT

[:"red"] "....knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. " [/] 1 Peter 1:18-20 NKJV

And I have accepted that without blemish or spot would indicate the nature of the Spirit as well as the flesh, Jesus being known as the Son of Man/God.

While Jesus met one of His most severe tests when in direct conflict with the prince of darkness, the principle of overcoming power for Jesus always remained in His doing what His Father asked Him to do. The same principle applies to all His disciples but, sad to say, we haven't fared as well. Thus our need for a Savior, another difference between Jesus' disciples and Himself.

[:"red"] "Immediately the Holy Spirit compelled Jesus to go into the wilderness." [/] Mark 1:12 NLT

Please be assured I wish not to convince you of any Truth. That is the work of the Holy Spirit. If I am faulty in my reasoning, we have a better Teacher to set things right.

[:"red"] "If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority. " [/] John 7:17 NKJV

Keep the faith!

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Life, yes that was a typo, you know what I meant right?

(You may want to print this out and read it when you have time; I went a long on this)

Thanks for telling me why you believe what you do. Our interpretations of scripture and understanding of Jesus’ nature are different. Jesus taking on my fallen nature means a lot to me. It tells me that He would go to any lengths to save me. He became one with us through the flesh. That speaks to my heart and mind. What a loving self-sacrificing God. If I were to believe that He had some other nature than what I have I would be discourage and have to spend the rest of my life feeling inferior knowing that I’ll never be like Him in this life time. That is how important this belief is to me.

For me, not only is my hope future (glorified Norman), but also it is overcoming now. So naturally the question comes to mind if I believe that we can be like Jesus now (in character and without willful sin) then why are others and I not living that way? No one is like Jesus are they? Here’s where I believe the theory of holy flesh or unfallen nature can be brought in. I mean, that people see their lives and can’t get it together and then come to the conclusion that Jesus must have had an advantage by having a different nature to be able to overcome. This can further lead people to live a compromising life believing that they can’t overcome anyway. (I am not suggesting that you are that way, this is just to explain my thoughts)

So I am now left with the same question if I don’t accept Jesus having an unfallen nature. Why are others and I not living a life like Jesus? I have come up with three reasons. 1st most people have a self-defeating, partial understanding of what sin is. 2nd most people (Christians included) are trying to earn their salvation without knowing it, there is a misunderstanding of the gospel and for the most part it is not being preached. (Rom 1:16)

3rd Most people don’t understand the difference between sin and temptation.

1. Here’s what most people believe about sin. Question, what is sin? Answer, Sin is the transgression of the law. Is that true, yes it sure is that’s what it says in 1 John 3: 4 “Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.” I am going to say that if someone believes that sin is only the transgression of the law they will spend their life trying to do good in order to avoid sinning. The way man thinks is that he must do something to please God. So naturally if sinning is “breaking the law” and breaking the law is cussing, having some other god (nice car, beautiful home or what ever) cheating, stealing, lying etc, then all we have to do is to not do those things and we are not sinning. (This is how the people of Jesus time thought; think of the rich young ruler, the Pharisees, Lawyers, Priests and Sadducees. Jesus came in the fullness of time when the misunderstanding of God was at it’s greatest and so they did not recognize Him.) It is also the way most people think today.

If we look at 1 John 3:4 carefully I see something else in the verse that clearly tells me that sin is something else as well as breaking the law. The word is “Also.” “Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.”

Here is the other more important definition of sin: “Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;”

Notice, Jesus said that the Spirit would convict people of sin because they did not believe on Him. When I first saw that I was amazed! That was telling me that sin is unbelief and not only actions that reveal that I am law breaking. This is a paradigm shift. Now instead of focusing on our works to avoid sinning, I focus on believing Jesus. If we do that, it follows that we will not transgress by actions. If we don’t believe in Jesus, that is sin and the transgression of the law by actions will follow just as sure as the sun comes up after night.

To put this to the test, lets go back and visit Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden before the fall. Satan calls to Eve, “Hey Eve, did God say that you shouldn’t eat of every tree in the garden?” You know the rest of the story. But she believed the lie and that is when she sinned and the transgression by action followed. (Adam ate also but he outright chose to be disobedient he was not deceived. Nevertheless he acted on the lie.) She did not believe Jesus and ultimately both of them did not believe that God is love.

When the last Adam was here, the question came to Him; do you believe that God is love? He answered that in the Garden of Gethsemane and on the cross. Yes, Father I believe you, I trust you to see me through. He revealed to us what it is like to have a loving relationship with the Father; to trust him fully. As Adam chose to separate himself from God (By unbelief) and it brought death; so Christ chose to separate Himself from God (By belief) and it brought life. (By going through with the sacrifice, Jesus knew there would be a separation, but He trusted God, “into thy hands I commend my spirit) “But not as the offence, so also is the free gift.” Romans 5:15

Not believing in Jesus is sin, which will be followed by the actions of transgressing the law. Sin takes place in the mind. (That, to me, is the complete interpretation of 1 John 3: 4.) In fact all the good works that the whole world could do is of no value without believing in Christ. All those works could not bring us into God’s favor or make us holy. I believe this is a problem in the world that keeps us from living a life that will reveal the character of Christ.

2. Having a misunderstanding of sin is one aspect that can keep us from living the life of Christ and the other is: not understanding or believing the Gospel of Christ for ourselves. Romans 1: 16. “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.” As the last Adam, Christ came and lived here, died here, was raised here and went to be with the Father as our brother and High Priest. When he took upon Himself humanity He took upon Himself the people of the world and humanity was one with Him. When the last Adam or mankind died we died in Him when He was resurrected we were too and when He went to be in heavenly places we went too. (This is why I believe that Jesus had to have the same fallen nature as us or we could not be one with Him. Therefore His death would not atone for us. He could not have died for our sins because He would be going contrary to what God wrote in Ezekiel 18: 20 “The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.” That’s what this whole post that Yougttay started is about. But now we have Jesus and we one in Him as humanity so that when He dies, we die and when He’s raised, we are raised and as He sits in heavenly places so do we. Eph. 2: 4-6 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus) Now it is left up to us if we shall believe the love of God which will bring the experiences of Jesus in our life both the good and the bad (persecution). Believing the Gospel truly fees us to concentrate our love on God and we will reveal that to our fellow man.

3. The misunderstanding of temptation: I am as you are and you are as I am, we have the same basic needs as humans. We know what we’re a like. I say this because as I came to understand the difference between temptation and sin and I know that we all can understand and relate to what I will say next. As the result of not knowing what sin is and not understanding or believing the Gospel we leave ourselves open to the devils games. This one is one of his most successful. It is to tempt you and then tell you that you are the author of his thoughts and therefore you have sinned. After all, how could a true Christian think those thoughts? And look at what James says about this! James 1: 14. But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. This is true temptation but is not what I’m referring to.

Here’s what I mean: you are tempted to think about something that is wrong. Let’s say you are tempted to get angry with your pastor, well you have two choices: entertain that thought and get mad at him or think for a minute and say, “this is not my thought, this is not coming form me or God.” Let it go and do think about it any more and then overcome evil with good and either pray for your pastor and go and talk to him. Only good things come from the Father of lights above. A lot, if not all people have a strong tendency to think that they have done wrong for thinking those kinds and other thoughts. It is best to realize and admit that these are not our thoughts and praise God that we can see this! It will be freeing to the soul. At the same time it’s not wise to deceive ourselves either, we know when we have let these thoughts go too far. Still, at that point ask for forgiveness and believe with all your heart that God has so done. Rejoice in the Lord always and again I say rejoice.

So these are the points that I have concluded which tells me why we are not living the life we want.

1. Not knowing what sin is and trying to avoid bad deeds to show that we are not breaking the law and thereby sinning.

2. Not understanding or not believing the Gospel. This leaves us burdened and unhappy, not enthusiastic about sharing the good news of God in Christ. What is there to share if you don’t get it?

3. Not knowing what temptation is we take it and believe that we are the authors of such thoughts and basically weaken our witness and desire to seek God.

Overcoming these points, I believe, will make a great change in our lives. (My people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge.) My belief is that until we can clear our minds of this type of thinking, we cannot attain the level of Christ likeness that God has planned for us individually. We will continue to live in failure and try to reason away our failures and come up with self-defeating and faith weakening theories that will not bring us the joy we so desperately want and need in Christ.

This is why I believe as I do and it is of utmost importance to me. I know that my life would be very different if I believed other wise. I have gone through a lot in my life to come to this understanding. I still feel that I have inadequately explained my thoughts; I believe I’d need to write a book to get it right. I think there’s enough to get across what I am saying and how I believe though.

God bless,

Norman

[Yong T Tay]

Norman,

You have Great postings, I wish more club members will read them. I myself was very much inspired by them.

The sin of unbelief is the unpardonable sin. We are saved by believing in the birth, the life, the death and the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Anyone of these four events missing will not save us from the wages of sin, namely death.

By His birth, Christ became a member of the human family, a chip of the fallen Adam. He had a fallen sinful human nature like us. He had no advantage over us. He could have sinned like we do, but He did not sinned.

By His life, Christ Changed the fallen sinful human nature to perfect sinless human nature in Him by living a perfect sinless life in His 33 1/2 years of earthly ministery.

By His death, Christ destroyed the fallen sinful human nature life in Him. He died the second death. Had He not lived a perfect sinless life of His 33 1/2 years on earth, He would remain in death forever.

By His resurrection, Christ overcome death, because death cannot contain Him there. Death can not keep a sinless person in its prisonhouse.

At the resurrection, Christ only brought back the perfect sinless human nature life with Him and left the fallen sinful human nature life in the grave forever. He will give that sinless life to whosoever believe in Him.

When we are born, we are born with the fallen sinful life of Adam. When we believe in Jesus, we will be born again with the perfect sinless life of the last Adam. That's why after our resurrection, those of us who believe in Jesus will have sinless life(eternal) and those of us who do not believe in Jesus will have the sinful life of Adam back. Since Jesus will not die again for the unbelievers, they will individually face the second death which mean goodbye to life.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Yongttay, my hope is that people who read my posts will be blessed. This is the reason I joined Club Adventist. It started by reading one of Nicodema's posts. I was moved by her pain and then began to share what God put on my heart.

I don't like to argue, I like to uplift the One who has given His life so that I can be changed into His image. I thank you for the kind words, you have encouraged me my friend.

Norman