bonnie Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 Walter Russell Mead's Blog June 26, 2012 German Court Declares Judaism A Crime Hard to believe, but that’s what the decision handed down by the regional court in Cologne, Germany means: circumcising a child under the age of consent is a crime, notwithstanding the religious beliefs of the parents. Many judges who loyally served the Third Reich finished their careers in perfect peace and quiet after World War Two; in some cases, they are still collecting pensions for administering Hitler’s laws. However, Germany’s moral sensibilities are so refined and so pure today that the thought of Jewish parents (or Muslims for that matter) performing an immemorial religious rite is unacceptable. Jews believe that the circumcision of infants is a necessary act; the command to circumcise male children at the age of eight days is the first command that God gives Abraham to mark their covenant; for thousands of years this has been a foundation of Jewish life. To ban infant circumcision is essentially to make the practice of Judaism illegal in Germany; it is now once again a crime to be a Jew in the Reich. Some may have worried that the memory of past, ahem, problems in German-Jewish relations would inhibit German judges from the single most anti-Semitic state action taken anywhere in the west since 1945. Holm Putzke, a legal expert at the University of Passau, praised the court’s dedication to duty, telling the Financial Times Deutschland that “Unlike many politicians, the court has not allowed itself to be scared off by charges of anti-Semitism or religious intolerance.” Well, thank goodness for that! If courts start letting themselves be inhibited because people will denounce them for being intolerant anti-Semites, how can we possibly build a clean and beautiful New Europe? Perhaps those convicted of wrongful circumcision could be required to wear a yellow star? Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cricket Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 I never have understood why circumcision should be done to persons of unconsenting age. To me, that is a crime against humanity. Likewise, I do not believe in other forms of permanent body alteration for persons of unconsenting age (piercings, tattoos, plastic surgery, use of steroids or non-prescription drugs/alcohol). Let the adult persons decide these things for themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted June 27, 2012 Author Share Posted June 27, 2012 I have four sons,all of whom were circumcised shortly after birth.I don't believe I committed a crime against humanity or my sons. I have four grandsons,all of whom are circumcised.I don't think My sons fell they committed a crime against humanity or their children Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon1 Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 I never have understood why circumcision should be done to persons of unconsenting age. To me, that is a crime against humanity. Likewise, I do not believe in other forms of permanent body alteration for persons of unconsenting age (piercings, tattoos, plastic surgery, use of steroids or non-prescription drugs/alcohol). Let the adult persons decide these things for themselves. But are you speaking of the modern age only? What of Gershom, son of Moses & Zipporah in Exodus 4:24-26? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cricket Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 To me, that is a crime against humanity. It is against their human rights to be mutilated at birth. I understand that you don't believe you committed a crime, and I respect your opinion. I respect your sons' opinions as well. Many others will have the same opinion. However, not all persons will feel as you do, nor as your son does. And, for those persons, body mutilation at childbirth is viewed as a crime against the right to keep their bodies untainted. In all fairness, I do believe that any choice to permanently alter one's body should be done at a consenting age,by the individuals themselves, and not someone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cricket Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 But are you speaking of the modern age only? What of Gershom, son of Moses & Zipporah in Exodus 4:24-26? Yes. Moses and Zipporah would have had to address that issue themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cricket Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 This site is interesting: http://www.circumstitions.com/Rights.html And, from this site, http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/2313097.html#f1, an intersting note on female circumcision as it is related to religion: Quote: *Although female circumcision is often thought to be associated with Islam, it predated Islam in Africa. Neither the Koran, the primary source for Islamic law, nor the "hadith," collections of the sayings of the Prophet Mohammed, include a direct call for the practice (see: reference 6). According to these oral histories, when Mohammed was asked his opinion on female circumcision, he told his followers "to circumcise, but not to destroy (the clitoris), for not destroying would be better for the man and would make the woman's face glow." Islamic clerics are divided, however, with some actively supporting the practice and others opposing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted June 27, 2012 Members Share Posted June 27, 2012 I don't believe that God would've started something that was a crime, or against nature. Or something that was not healthy. And from what I've heard the reason for the 8 days old is because this is the best time for it. Not sure of the actual reason for waiting till the eight day. I'll see if I can find it and post it. Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted June 27, 2012 Members Share Posted June 27, 2012 Here is the followup to my other post: Why Bris? Recently, I was at a website for expectant mothers when I happened upon a forum entitled "To circumcise or not." One Jewish woman posted a message asking for opinions on whether or not she should give a Bris to her unborn baby. She had many women respond to her (quite strongly, I may add) that it is a cruel, barbaric procedure that can traumatize the baby. People went so far as to cite medical studies proving that a Bris is traumatic for a child, decreases future tolerance to pain, increases the risk of infection, has long term psychological effects, etc. I was horrified that people were trying to dissuade a Jewish mother from giving her son a Bris, so I posted my opinion. I explained to the woman that before she makes any decision she should find out more about the meaning and importance of a Bris. I told her jokingly that my husband, father, and brother have all been circumcised and none of them ever regretted the decision. My questions are: Did I deal with this issue in the correct way? How can one refute these medical studies? And how can one prove that a Bris is not barbaric? The Aish Rabbi Replies: The truth is, there is no "logical" argument for such an elective procedure. Yet circumcision has been practiced on Jewish males for close to 4,000 years, ever since Abraham was so commanded by God. Why? Let's tackle the issues: It is a foundation of Judaism that we are to control our animal desires and direct them into spiritual pursuits. That's why the Bris is done on the organ where many people unfortunately express "barbaric" behavior. If we bring holiness into our life there, then all other areas will follow. Another aspect of circumcision is that it is integral to Jewish identity. This point was made quite powerfully in a movie called "Europa Europa," the true story of a young Jewish boy trying to escape detection by the Nazis. The boy looks Aryan and speaks German fluently, so he poses as a non-Jew and is eventually recruited into an elite training program for the next generation of SS officers. This boy was on his way to a fully non-Jewish life, except for one thing: His circumcision. He couldn't hide it. And that is what kept him Jewish throughout the entire ordeal. The man survived the war, and made a new life for himself in Israel. Instead, he may have ended up becoming a Nazi officer. It all depended on the Bris. It is a principle of Jewish life that we do not perform mitzvot based on the "practical benefit." At the same time, the mitzvot frequently have positive observable effects in our everyday life. Regarding the medical issues, Rabbi Yonason Binyomin Goldberger writes in "Sanctity and Science": As an operation, circumcision has an extremely small complication rate. A study in the New England Journal of Medicine (1990) reported a complication rate of 0.19 percent when circumcision is performed by a physician. When performed by a trained mohel, the rate falls to 0.13 percent or about 1 in 1000. When a complication occurs, it is usually excessive bleeding, which is easily correctable. No other surgical procedure can boast such figures for complication-free operations. One reason why there are so few complications involving bleeding may be that, according to recent studies, the major clotting agents, prothrombin and vitamin K, do not reach peak levels in the blood until the eighth day of life. Prothrombin levels are normal at birth, drop to very low levels in the next few days, and return to normal at the end of the first week. One study showed that by the eighth day prothrombin levels reach 110 percent of normal. In the words of Dr. Armand J. Quick, author of several works on the control of bleeding, "It hardly seems accidental that the rite of circumcision was postponed until the eighth day by the Mosaic law." Furthermore, circumcision has been known to offer virtually complete protection from penile cancer. According to a recent review article in the New England Journal of Medicine, none of the over 1,600 persons studied with this cancer had been circumcised in infancy. In the words of Cochen and McCurdy, the incidence of penile cancer in the U.S. is "essentially zero" among circumcised men. Several studies reported that circumcised boys were 10-to-39 times less likely to develop urinary tract infections during infancy than uncircumcised boys. In addition, circumcision protects against bacterial, fungal and parasitic infections and a variety of other conditions related to hygiene. The extremely low rate of cervical cancer in Jewish women (9-to-22 times less than among non-Jewish women) is thought to be related to the practice of circumcision. As a result of studies like these, a number of prestigious medical organizations have recognized the benefits of circumcision, and the California Medical Association has endorsed circumcision as an "effective public health measure." The bottom line, however, is that Bris is the sign of the covenant, maintaining one’s spiritual attachment to the Jewish people. Maybe posting this on the forum will help. Comes from a Jewish website and one I would trust more than any other website that thinks they know better than Jews and the Bible. Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted June 27, 2012 Author Share Posted June 27, 2012 it is a cruel, barbaric procedure that can traumatize the baby. People went so far as to cite medical studies proving that a Bris is traumatic for a child, decreases future tolerance to pain, increases the risk of infection, has long term psychological effects, etc. Most parents do what they feel is best for their babies medically and this is hardly a new unknown procedure.As to the above underlined sounds like a load of nonsense. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Quote: viewed as a crime against the right to keep their bodies untainted. It would appear from this thought above that God is now guilty of criminal mutilation. Not surprising in the world we live in. "He who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money must be circumcised, and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant." Genesis 17:13 NKJV I wonder if those who are willing to give up the everlasting covenant, know they are giving up the New Testament Covenant also. "And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3:29 NKJV God blesses! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cricket Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 HEY ALL I think they do circumcision for health reasons now dgrimm60 Here's an interesting article:NYC officials suggest law change after Jewish circumcision is tied to infant herpes and death Wonder if some people here may think that some religious practices might be harmful after all? Should there be regulation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted July 12, 2012 Members Share Posted July 12, 2012 I disagree, read my post #555804 Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cricket Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 pkrause, you disagree with WHAT? (I did read your post. I read it again today even though I read it sometime ago when it was posted.) Do you disagree that the article I posted was interesting? After all that's the ONLY opinion I wrote in post #558715. Did you read the article I posted? Do you think that the practice of metzitzah b'peh, as performed by the Jews referenced in the article, should be allowed to continue--even at the peril of some infant boys? Do you think that some religious practices might be harmful after all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 It would appear from this thought above that God is now guilty of criminal mutilation. Not surprising in the world we live in. "He who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money must be circumcised, and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant." Genesis 17:13 NKJV Can men be wiser than God? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cricket Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Apparently there are some who think the practice of metzitzah b'peh is okay in the eyes of God. I don't think He ever mentioned doing it quite that way though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Quote: The truth is, there is no "logical" argument for such an elective procedure. Yet circumcision has been practiced on Jewish males for close to 4,000 years, ever since Abraham was so commanded by God. Why? Does God need to explain Himself to His creation? However since He has condescended to do just that, maybe this reasoning might be of value. "“Come now, and let us reason together,” Says the LORD,..."Isaiah 1:18 KJV Man has proven himself incapable of controlling himself, even having subjected himself to circumcision, which allows for diminishing the sensitivity of a very sensitive area, circumcision leading to naturally constant contact taking place with abrasive clothing . Can you imagine the increase of depravity if there were less male individuals who had experienced circumcision. The evidence of hatred by the uncircumcised towards the Jew is probably partly due to the constant witness of the Jews that they have better control of themselves as a result of circumcision, that giving constant witness to the uncircumcised of the mercy of God to His children while living in a depraved world which the circumcised find easier to live with, without "falling" into sinful practices. God blesses! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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