Woody Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 Should we be talking about the Wrath of God? May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 Should we be talking about the Wrath of God? You don't want to go there.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyblue888 Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 On the contrary, we should take every opportunity which is given to us to study this topic so that there may be no misunderstanding as to what the Bible means when speaking of "the wrath of God" or "the anger of the Lord." By comparing 1 Chronicles 21:1 and 2 Samuel 24:1 we find that Satan himself is the anger of the Lord, His fierce anger, His wrath. This is a very interesting topic, one that we should study earnestly and prayerfully. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibs Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 The last end of God's furious anger, indignation with sin is revealed here and it's depth. Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.. Da 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be. (indignation used here is-) za`am zah'-am from 2194; strictly froth at the mouth, i.e. (figuratively) fury (especially of God's displeasure with sin):--angry, indignation, rage. Yes it is sin and who could be more in Yah's sights than the originator and leader of men and angels to cohort with him than Satan. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. A Freeman In Jesus Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 Here's God's wrath in a nutshell: Deut 31:17 In that day my wrath (God's wrath) will be moved against them, and I will be turned away from them, veiling my face from them, and destruction will overtake them, and unnumbered evils and troubles will come on them; so that in that day they will say, Have not these evils come on us because our God is not with us? Here's a better, more clear version: 17 On that day I will become angry with them and forsake them; I will hide my face from them, and they will be destroyed. Many disasters and difficulties will come upon them, and on that day they will ask, 'Have not these disasters come upon us because our God is not with us?' If you read on God's wrath is because "they turn to other gods". When God is rejected and despised, then God can do no other than to abandon those who reject Him. Why? Because "God is agape". Agape, by its very nature, cannot impose itself on others. Agape cannot coerce or force. When God forsakes those who have rejected Him calamity comes because His protection is also removed. It is not God that causes the calamity, but rather the absence of God brings trouble. Go to Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools.... Notice that they turn away from God. Do things get better? verse 26 God gave them up to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones..... So God gives them up. The result? The fruit of ungodliness - the fruit of rejecting God: 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Doesn't this like Sodom and Gomorrah? But God told Abraham that He was going to destroy these cities. Did He or did He abandon these cities and hence calamity struck? Hosea 11:8 "How can I give you up (abandon you), Ephraim? How can I hand you over, Israel? How can I treat you like Admah? How can I make you like Zeboyim? My heart is changed within me; all my compassion is aroused. Notice the cities Admah and Zeboyim. Now go to Deut 29:23 The whole land will be a burning waste of salt and sulfur--nothing planted, nothing sprouting, no vegetation growing on it. It will be like the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboyim, which the LORD overthrew in fierce anger (wrath). So God didn't literally rain down fire & brimstone on these cities, rather He abandoned them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 Ellen White: "God destroys no man; but when a man stifles conviction, when he turns from evidence, he is sowing unbelief, and will reap as he has sown.... No soul is ever finally deserted of God , given up to his own ways, so long as there is any hope of his salvation." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted July 4, 2012 Author Share Posted July 4, 2012 Quote: On the contrary, we should take every opportunity which is given to us to study this topic Whoops - What about this: "God calls upon you to believe. Heed His voice. Cease talking of the wrath of God and talk of His compassion and His abundant mercy." HP 113 May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyblue888 Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Woody, you just punched a key and you came up with that statement? Why did you start the thread then? or you just became aware of that statement? Of course we should not dwell on the wrath of God but on His compassion and abundant mercy. What I had in mind was to show that the wrath of God is not what is commonly understood to be and that when it is understood as it should be, we are in a better position to appreciate His compassion and abundant mercy. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyblue888 Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Robert, no offense but when you highlight the way you do sometimes and using huge characters it is considered in forum etiquette as yelling. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted July 4, 2012 Author Share Posted July 4, 2012 Well Sky - I knew I had to come up with something from EGW - as you don't accept the General Conference or other references. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibs Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 We are required to be willing to give our will to be His Will and our Love as His Love, It is actually a death of self, total surrender, but, Wrath is the strange act of LOVE, God is love and love wouldn't be love if it didn't destroy all sin and sinners not willing to take up His proffered salvation and power over committing sin. We all must surely know sin will not rise up again as any that have not weeded it out with His Power and Help can not be in the heavenly kingdom. He won't do it totally as He must have man to do his little bitty part. He is not going to MAKE anyone sinless. If He was going to have done that He would have needed not to come and died. That way none would be free as He will only have His subjects to be. We must be fully and totally free within His Will. He has poured out His Love and His Heart and made the way so easy and possible to the last man born. So why wouldn't Love have Wrath for such obstinacy. We are to be of Him, For Him and With Him in all things. Our will His Will, our love the same as His Love. His commandment are our pleasure to do. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. A Freeman In Jesus Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted July 5, 2012 Author Share Posted July 5, 2012 God will not force anyone to overcome. But if we submit to Him - then it is up to HIM as to what He does. And our job is to accept that. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddar Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 On the contrary, we should take every opportunity which is given to us to study this topic so that there may be no misunderstanding as to what the Bible means when speaking of "the wrath of God" or "the anger of the Lord." By comparing 1 Chronicles 21:1 and 2 Samuel 24:1 we find that Satan himself is the anger of the Lord, His fierce anger, His wrath. This statement is outrageous! Understanding God’s character is almost as important as understanding the gospel and blaming all the negative aspects of God’s character on Satan is not found in the bible. There were a few times that even Jesus got angry. How can you say that when he turned over the tables of the money changers that it is somehow the ‘wrath of Satan’ – absurd! Jesus did say that we should turn the other cheek but there were times when even he didn’t follow that. Case in point – the money changers and animal sellers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyblue888 Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 Cheddar, If you find it outrageous to compare Scripture with Scripture, thus letting the Bible being its own interpreter, then your statement that the wrath of God was displayed through Christ when He overturned the tables of the money changers is that much more outrageous for it is merely a private opinion. By quoting these passages of Scriptures which I did, I was only hinting at the way we are to approach all the other passages of Scriptures which refer to the wrath of God. You stated that some times Jesus followed the golden rule and sometimes He did not. This, again, is a private opinion. But if there is a statement that is totally outrageous, that would have to be this one you just made. We have not yet scratched the topic. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 Case in point – the money changers and animal sellers. John 2:15 And he made a whip of small cords and put them all out of the Temple, with the sheep and the oxen, sending in all directions the small money of the changers and overturning their tables. Jesus make a whip of small cords to drive the sheep and oxen out of the Temple. Jesus didn't take a whip to the money changers...that's your imagination is you think He did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyblue888 Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 What Jesus did there with the money changers is the same that He did with the Egyptians through Moses. As long as the rod was in Moses' hand the powers of nature were under control but as soon as the rod was no longer in Moses'hand, it became a serpent of destruction. Christ held on to the whip which meant that there was still time for the Jews to come into harmony with God but a time would come and did come when the whip would no longer be in Christ's firm grip and would become a whip of destruction in the hand of Satan and this happened in A.D. 70 in the destruction of Jerusalem. See G.C.35,36. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddar Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 So let me get this straight, so there is no misunderstanding. Jesus never not angry and when the bible speaks of God's wrath it really means the 'wrath of Satan'. Once again - ABSURD!!! God does get angry. Anyone with a third grade reading level who reads the OT can figure that out. Jesus Christ also gets angry '...Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?' Rev. 6:16,17 He may not have gotten very angry at the first coming but he's going to make up for it at the second coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyblue888 Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 There is coming a time when probation will close and then the wrath of God will be complete (Rev.15:1) which means that Satan will have entire control of the finally impenitent. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddar Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 So God gives them up. The result? The fruit of ungodliness - the fruit of rejecting God:.... Doesn't this like Sodom and Gomorrah? But God told Abraham that He was going to destroy these cities. Did He or did He abandon these cities and hence calamity struck? .... So God didn't literally rain down fire & brimstone on these cities, rather He abandoned them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyblue888 Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 As I have stated before, the Bible is its own interpreter. The death of Saul is a perfect example as to how we are to read these verses you just quoted. Notice these two verses: "So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the Lord, even against the word of the Lord, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of a medium, to inquire of her, and inquired not of the Lord; therefore He slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David, the son of Jesse." 1 Chronicles 10:14. "Then said Saul to his armor-bearer, Draw your sword, and thrust me through with it, lest these uncircumcised come and abuse me. But his armor-bearer would not; for he was very much afraid. So Saul took a sword, and fell upon it." 1 Chronicles 10:4. Therefore we are to understand that the judgments of God do not come directly out from the Lord upon the sinner but in this way: the sinner places himself beyond His protection. This is what happened to Saul. In other words, "The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul and no protectioin from the malice and enmity of Satan." G.C.36. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyblue888 Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 As I have stated before, the Bible is its own interpreter. The death of Saul is a perfect example as to how we are to read these verses you just quoted. Notice these two verses: "So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the Lord, even against the word of the Lord, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of a medium, to inquire of her, and inquired not of the Lord; therefore He slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David, the son of Jesse." 1 Chronicles 10:14. "Then said Saul to his armor-bearer, Draw your sword, and thrust me through with it, lest these uncircumcised come and abuse me. But his armor-bearer would not; for he was very much afraid. So Saul took a sword, and fell upon it." 1 Chronicles 10:4. Therefore we are to understand that the judgments of God do not come directly out from the Lord upon the sinner but in this way: the sinner places himself beyond His protection. This is what happened to Saul. In other words, "The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul and no protectioin from the malice and enmity of Satan." G.C.36. sky "I was shown that Satan would entangle and then destroy, if he could, the souls he had tempted. God will bear long, but there is a bound to His mercy, a line which marks His mercy and His justice. I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way--they place themselves beyond His protection. He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then, if those who have been the objects of His special care follow their own course, independent of the Spirit of God, after repeated warnings, if they chose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them." E.G. White, Manuscript Releases, Vol.14,3.1. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 1) God literally rained fire and brimstone down on Sodom and Gomorrah. No, God retreated and trouble followed. I never said Satan did it..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 Here we go with this whole "God does not destroy, never has, never will" debate again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 Here we go with this whole "God does not destroy, never has, never will" debate again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 Here we go with this whole "God does not destroy, never has, never will" debate again. Jesus said "If you have seen Me you have seen the Father." Please show me where Christ destroyed folks? I can show you warnings of His departure: Matt 5:37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling . 38 "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate ! "Your house" refers to the temple. Matt 24:1 Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. 2 And He said to them, "Do you not see all these things ? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down." Jesus was referring to the Romans siege of Jerusalem. That happened in 70AD. Why did it happen? The Jews were God's people! Answer: They rejected Christ and because He was not welcome He retreated. Deut 31:17 I will forsake them and hide My face from them, and they will be consumed, and many evils and troubles will come upon them; so that they will say in that day, 'Is it not because our God is not among us that these evils have come upon us?' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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