The Wrath of God

[Robert]

Quote:

The meaning of the verses above is that for any of us to be alive, God has to be constantly at work in order to keep and maintain our existence even the existence of Satan and all his demons

That's a very bad interpretation. Our humanity doesn't need constant tinkering with in order to keep it going. On the 7th day God rested from His perfect work of creation - especially mankind. That rest didn't end on the 7th day, but continued until sin entered our world. God's work required no intervention. It was perfect....

"He (God) has made of one blood (Adam) all the nations of men living on all the face of the earth". God set into motion His creation. He made it immortal and self-sustaining.

[Felix Florimon]

Our humanity doesn't need constant tinkering with in order to keep it going. On the 7th day God rested from His perfect work of creation - especially mankind. That rest didn't end on the 7th day, but continued until sin entered our world. God's work required no intervention. It was perfect....

God set into motion His creation. He made it immortal and self-sustaining.

Regretfully, you are coming from a wrong perspective again. People usually end up with wrong doctrines when they approach truthful biblical statements from a wrong perspective. The Apostle Paul wrote: “…God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever” (1 Timothy 6:16).

God only rested from creating new things. God has never rested or stopped sustaining all things by his powerful word (Hebrews 1:2). Even Jesus said: “your Father in heaven causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous (Matthew 5:45). Again, God’s rest on the seventh day of creation was only a rest of creating new things. He has never rested or stopped having some kind of interaction with His creation. Otherwise, Jesus would have never said that God causes the sun to rise on good as well as on evil individuals.”

FF

[Guest]

Robert,

You better take my post more serious and not be so antagonistic of what others see of God. You see He says what He means and means what He says but you want to make of it what you want it to say. Do so at your own peril and don't blame me as I have given you the truth, His Word! I suggest you complain to Him!

That's exactly right.

[Robert]

People usually end up with wrong doctrines when they approach truthful biblical statements from a wrong perspective.

[Robert]

No, if you knew your Bible, God created perfect in Adam. He created the human race in one man. He set in motion our humanity. It was perfect - it was self-sustaining...it was not defective. And He rested from that perfect work.

Psalms 139:13 For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother’s womb. 14 I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Wonderful are Your works, And my soul knows it very well.

Look, it seems you are right! God made you in your mother's womb; He formed your inward parts - your brain, lungs, liver, etc. He did a wonderful job.

But wait, how many infants die every second? Three - many from defects. Also, if God created you in your mother's womb He is responsible for making you are sinner! That's right! Oh, you don't believe me? Okay, read:

Psalm 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

So if we take your minute by minute intervention of God theory as gospel, then God created you a sinner.

Anyway, back to the rest of the story. Let's continue with Psalms chapter 139, verse 15

My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth; 16 Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written the days that were ordained for me, when as yet there was not one of them.

In other words God made you & me from the dust of the ground. When did God do that?

Genesis 2:7 ..The LORD God formed the man (Adam) from the dust of the ground (the earth) and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

So God created you when He created Adam. What did it say in Acts?

Acts 17:26 From one man (Adam) He (God) made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth....

When He created Adam God put into process our humanity. We come from Adam, via procreation. God's work was perfect, but then the fall ruined that. That's why we are dying...that's why all the trouble in the world. In fact both Jesus and Paul said that "Satan is the Lord of this world." That's why things are in terrible shape.

[Robert]

When He created Adam God put into process our humanity. We come from Adam, via procreation. God's work was perfect, but then the fall ruined that. That's why we are dying...that's why all the trouble in the world. In fact both Jesus and Paul said that "Satan is the Lord of this world." That's why things are in terrible shape.

Luke 4:1 Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit in the desert, 2 where for forty days he was tempted by the devil. He ate nothing during those days, and at the end of them he was hungry.

3 The devil said to him, "If you are the Son of God, tell this stone to become bread." 4 Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone.' "

5 The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. 6 And he said to him, "I will give you all their authority and splendor, for it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to.

[Robert]

Quote:

Robert...both Jesus and Paul said that "Satan is the Lord of this world."

Development of Sin

While sin originated in the mind of Lucifer in heaven, it was never allowed to develop in heaven. It was on this earth that Satan and his angels developed sin. Let us see how this was done:

Genesis 1:26, 28. God created this earth for man and, therefore, gave him dominion over it.

Luke 4:5, 6. By deceiving our first parents (Adam and Eve) and causing them to fall, Satan took possession of this world and made it his own; this is based on the principle recorded in 2 Peter 2:19. Please note that Jesus did not question Satan’s claim that the world was delivered to him.

John 14:30. Since the fall of man, Satan has become the “prince of this world.”

2 Corinthians 4:3-4. Paul refers to Satan as the “god of this world.”

1 John 5:19. The whole world, apart from the Christian, is under the control of Satan, or as the Greek text actually says, “the wicked one.”

2 Peter 2:19. Man defeated by Satan is in bondage (slavery) to him [John 8:34; Romans 6:17].

[Robert]

Because God allowed Lucifer to become the god of this world and develop his kingdom based on self-love, God actually assumes the responsibility as if He did these things Himself. Why? Because ultimately sin & it's effects wouldn't be happening if God had not allowed Lucifer to test his love of self.

That's why you see God saying, "I will harden Pharaoh's heart" - "I will caused them to be deceived" - "I create evil" - "I sent an evil spirit" - "I killed Saul" - etc,

[Robert]

Satan's rebellion was to be a lesson to the universe through all coming ages, a perpetual testimony to the nature and terrible results of sin. The working out of Satan's rule, its effects upon both men and angels, would show what must be the fruit of setting aside the divine authority. It would testify that with the existence of God's government and His law is bound up the well-being of all the creatures He has made. Thus the history of this terrible experiment of rebellion was to be a perpetual safeguard to all holy intelligences, to prevent them from being deceived as to the nature of transgression, to save them from committing sin and suffering its punishments. [EGW]

[Robert]

My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth; 16 Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written the days that were ordained for me, when as yet there was not one of them.

Gen 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; 2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

Adam has a collective sense. When God created Adam, He created all mankind - He created you. And He created you (your unformed substance) in Adam's humanity. You share Adam's life.

The problem is you share Adam's fallen life, one indwelt by iniquity! You are conceived with a bent-to-self....You are born in love with yourself. So everything you do, before Christ, is for your benefit. Even the so-called good things you do, are for your advancement. So we are born speaking lies.

Why? Because the things we do outwardly are not for others welfare, but for our own advancement. That why the Bible states we are "born speaking lies".

So what God created in Adam was ruined by Lucifer. That's why we need a Savior.

BTW, the Sabbath no longer points to God's perfect work. If you are resting each Sabbath because of God's perfect work, then you are resting in vain. You need to rest because of God's perfect work of redemption in Christ. Back to topic.

[Gibs]

Robert,

There is one thing I am sure of and that is, IF and a big IF God did not destroy sin and sinners and all rebellion and completely annihilate it then the Kingdom of our Saviour could not be a heavenly place.

IT WOULD JUST BE A RERUN OF THE PRESENT BOTTOMLESS PIT WE ARE IN.

I don't know about you but He has shown me how to be delivered out of it and has shown me He will not allow it no more for all eternity.

No, not ONE in this life continuing in sin will be in paradise! Die a sinner of this life and you will be raised the same, but in the second resurrection to be consumed to never be no more.

Yes His Perfect Work as you like to speak of is the building of your soul temple of which each must do his little bitty part is His power in you that you are an overcomer. None, no not one will have any excuse that they could not overcome the devil and sin in their lives. He came not only to save you from past sins but to save you from committing sin that He can safely take you into His Kingdom!

This is not a free for all in sin, but a program of deliverance from sinning.

He would not needed to come and died if it were going to be as so many are disposed to think. He would have made us all to be zombie puppets, and not totally free to enter into sin or do His Will and His Love.

Is your heart set now for all eternity to do His Will and His Love?

You will prove it by not falling into sin now!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Felix Florimon]

You are taking liberties with the above that Paul did not intend. It is true that without God there would be no life; we wouldn't just evolve from nothing, but to think that God actually makes my heart beat once a second is stretching it.

But, for argument's sake, let's say that what you say is true, what then? Well, it paints a bad picture of God. Why? Because if God is in control of every detail of our lives here on planet earth, well, he is doing a terrible job.

I mean look around. Statistically infants die every 3 seconds. Where's God? In fact 105 humans die every minute in this world. God's not doing a good job sustaining.

As soon as Adam disobeyed God, all living creation on earth lost its ability to have a life without end. Since then life on this planet is determined by a cycle of birth and death. Life on Earth is partially disconnected from God’s sustaining power.

The problem is not God. The problem is in the sinful ability and tendency that our bodies and minds have in getting disconnected and doing the opposite of what has been established through God’s laws. Every living creature is in a journey toward physical death. Some die much sooner than others but the end is the same.

Satan and his demons don’t die as we do but they are not immortal. The immortality of the heavenly angels is a result of God’s power working on them. Satan and his demons are still alive and guiding people to say and do evil things because God has not yet set in motion the process that is going to finally annihilate evil and suffering.

FF

[Robert]

None, no not one will have any excuse that they could not overcome the devil and sin in their lives. He came not only to save you from past sins but to save you from committing sin that He can safely take you into His Kingdom!

What you are preaching is good old legalism - salvation by works. This is what the Judaizers taught during Paul's time.

Look, if you are perfect as God is perfect, let me know. If you died today are you good enough for heaven? Yes? I will not respond to you until you answer this question!!

[Felix Florimon]

Look, if you are perfect as God is perfect, let me know. If you died today are you good enough for heaven? Yes? I will not respond to you until you answer this question!!

Usually, that is a question that those who are learning how to truly worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth will not even think to answer before the time of probation ends. However, there will be a definitive answer some time after their time of probation ends or after Jesus finally says: “He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.”

Before the time of probation ends, those who are in the process of learning how to truly worship our heavenly Father in Spirit and truth will just be happy to join their voices with the Apostle Paul who said: “Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus” (Philippians 3:12-14).

FF

[Q.E.D.]

The Wrath of God

"Then the Catholics bid the Protestants to go forward, and issue a decree that all who will not observe the first day of the week, instead of the seventh day, shall be slain. And the Catholics, whose numbers are large, will stand by the Protestants. The Catholics will give their power to the image of the beast. And the Protestants will work as their mother worked before them to destroy the saints. But before their decree bring or bear fruit, the saints will be delivered by the Voice of God. Then I saw that Jesus' work in the sanctuary will soon be finished. And after His work there is finished, He will come to the door of the first apartment, and confess the sins of Israel upon the head of the Scape Goat. Then He will put on the garments of vengeance. Then the plagues will come upon the wicked, and they do not come till Jesus puts on that garment, and takes His place upon the great white cloud. Then while the plagues are falling, the Scape Goat is being led away. He makes a mighty struggle to escape, but he is held fast by the hand that leads him. If he should effect his escape, Israel would lose their lives. I saw that it would take time to lead away the Scape Goat into the land of forgetfulness after the sins were put on his head. {SpM 2.1}

The great white cloud I saw was not the holy place, but entirely separate from the holy and most holy place, entirely separate from the sanctuary. {SpM 2.2}

Then the angel repeated these words, and said, "This is the time spoken of in Isaiah. He saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor. He had no mediator between God and man, and these plagues could be withheld no longer, for Jesus had ceased to plead for Israel, and they were covered with the covering of the Almighty God, and then they could live in the sight of a holy God, and those who were not covered, the plagues fell upon them, for they had nothing to shelter or protect them from the wrath of God." Three Early Visions, March 18, 1852. Spalding and Magan Collection 1985

Q.E.D.

[Gibs]

Q. E. D.

That quote of EGW is a pure Gem for a lot of revealing content.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gibs]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

None, no not one will have any excuse that they could not overcome the devil and sin in their lives. He came not only to save you from past sins but to save you from committing sin that He can safely take you into His Kingdom!

What you are preaching is good old legalism - salvation by works. This is what the Judaizers taught during Paul's time.

Look, if you are perfect as God is perfect, let me know. If you died today are you good enough for heaven? Yes? I will not respond to you until you answer this question!!

Heh, heh, Robert it is fine with me if you don't respond any at any time.

My boast Robert is in Jesus Christ who dwells in me, without Him I am nothing. He is my strength and stay and impervious coveriing. I am malleable in His Hands and He makes of me what He wants me to be. I cooperate as fully as I know how in the construction of my building. He and I are working on a building, a temple in me for Him to dwell in. It is only for Him to know how completed it is.

I can tell you this, my love is as His Love, His Law is in my heart. My will is given fully to be of His Will, nothing witheld.

No legalist in me my friend, just a cheerful follower and doer of His Word.

Truly I pray that you be Blessed the same.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

I can tell you this, my love is as His Love, His Law is in my heart. My will is given fully to be of His Will, nothing witheld.

Then you have no self-interests?....You live for others with no thought of yourself?

[Guest]

We are debtors to God to use every advantage He has entrusted to us to beautify the truth by holiness of character, and to send the messages of warning, and of comfort, of hope and love, to those who are in the darkness of error and sin. – {LS 196.3}

[Q.E.D.]

The Wrath of God

"1 ¶ And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had *married an Ethiopian woman.

2 And they said, Hath the LORD indeed spoken only by Moses? hath he not spoken also by us? And the LORD heard it.

3 (Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth.)

4 ¶ And the LORD spake suddenly unto Moses, and unto Aaron, and unto Miriam, Come out ye three unto the tabernacle of the congregation. And they three came out.

5 And the LORD came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came forth.

6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.

7 My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.

8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?

9 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against them; and he departed.

10 ¶ And the cloud departed from off the tabernacle; and, behold, Miriam became leprous, white as snow: and Aaron looked upon Miriam, and, behold, she was leprous.

11 And Aaron said unto Moses, Alas, my lord, I beseech thee, lay not the sin upon us, wherein we have done foolishly, and wherein we have sinned.

12 Let her not be as one dead, of whom the flesh is half consumed when he cometh out of his mother's womb.

13 And Moses cried unto the LORD, saying, Heal her now, O God, I beseech thee.

14 And the LORD said unto Moses, If her father had but spit in her face, should she not be ashamed seven days? let her be shut out from the camp seven days, and after that let her be received in again.

15 And Miriam was shut out from the camp seven days: and the people journeyed not till Miriam was brought in again."(Numbers 12:1-15)

Q.E.D.

[Robert]

9 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against them; and he departed. 10And the cloud departed from off the tabernacle; and, behold, Miriam became leprous, white as snow: and Aaron looked upon Miriam, and, behold, she was leprous.

God removes himself and trouble follows....

Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall come upon them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?

In the absence of God bad things happen. Therefore it can't be God doing these things because He has departed.

[Tom Wetmore]

Moderator Note:

Maybe it is time that everyone take a break from responding to this whole topic. The irony seems to be that it brings out more of the wrath of humans rather than anything within the nature of God.

Locking time has come...