What about Deborah?

[ClubV12]

You know, Doug, that principle of desperate times call for desperate measures makes a case for the individual Divisions or Unions or lower ranks to do what they see as needful in they're area.

This is one reason I suspect the ONLY viable options for the World Church are:

NO to W.O., period.

OR, allowing individual divisions (or lower) to make that call based on the unique circumstances in which they may find themselves.

"Desperate times", as you might call it. This seems to be the case in China for instance, where women may be able to satisfy the demands of the State in a way men cannot. Or a lack of men to fill the positions? Or so I've heard, I don't really know the circumstances in China.

Interesting comparison of the times of the book of Judges with our time!

[debbym]

if Deborah served as a judge over the nation of God... then it does demonstrate that God is not limited, he is able to use a woman, to fill her with His Holy Spirit, and use her mightily to serve those who believe in God.

there is no genetic reason that a man must be used and not a women for spiritual service in the highest responsibilities.

[doug yowell]

if Deborah served as a judge over the nation of God... then it does demonstrate that God is not limited, he is able to use a woman, to fill her with His Holy Spirit, and use her mightily to serve those who believe in God.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

it's hard to reconcile that statement with the otherwise complete absence of women in the highest spiritual responsibilities throughout the entire history of Israel and the NT church. Even the story of Deborah indicates that the leader of the nation's military was supposed to be a man of faith.The Bible requires two or three witnesses to establish every fact. Deborah is one.Surely God had ample opportunity to further illustrate that conclusion over that 1500 years,but nothing.Given the lack of women leaders in the Bible,could it be that there IS a good reason for men alone at the highest responsibilities?

Are you really familiar with OT history and culture?? May ignoring it? Because of events that happened several thousand years ago and in a very different culture, you make the assumption, even after saying God has been limited by humans, that God just wanted men to be in control of spiritual matters!!!

Wow.....wow....

[doug yowell]

Are you really familiar with OT history and culture?? May ignoring it? Because of events that happened several thousand years ago and in a very different culture, you make the assumption, even after saying God has been limited by humans, that God just wanted men to be in control of spiritual matters!!!

Wow.....wow....

Nice try,CoA

[debbym]

Quote:

All that you have said about Christ's duty is without question,true, and powerfully stated. Why is it that the same principles of authority in the home cannot be required from an exclusively male leader in the church? "For if a man does not know how to RULE his own house,how will he take care of the house of God?" That's what most WO opponents are asking for. It is without question that God has given the responsibility of "heading" the home to the man. Why disparage the same Christ modeled principle when applied to church family?

It is well and good for a man to be a responsible functioning person seeing to the needs of his family members responsibly with self control, wisdom, and love. this is a great proving ground for learning so one could undestand the responsibilities of seving in the household of faith.

same for a woman. If a women does not responsibily look after the needs of her family she is not qualified to minister/serve in the household of faith.

[BobRyan]

A lot of the objection to WO comes from the interpretations of the writings of Paul and his instructions about male female relationships in the church. But there is one glarring Old Testiment example that would seem to negate our current understanding of Paul's instructions. Judges were the spiritual leaders of the entire nation of Israel. Deborah was both prophetess and Judge.

[doug yowell]

It is well and good for a man to be a responsible functioning person seeing to the needs of his family members responsibly with self control, wisdom, and love. this is a great proving ground for learning so one could undestand the responsibilities of seving in the household of faith.

same for a woman. If a women does not responsibily look after the needs of her family she is not qualified to minister/serve in the household of faith.

Where do we find that qualification for women as ministers in Scripture? Are you then advocating that both men and women who serve in pastoral roles should be married?

[doug yowell]

Deborah was both prophetess and Judge.

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

Genetic or not, it's hard to reconcile that statement with the otherwise complete absence of women in the highest spiritual responsibilities throughout the entire history of Israel and the NT church. Even the story of Deborah indicates that the leader of the nation's military was supposed to be a man of faith.The Bible requires two or three witnesses to establish every fact. Deborah is one.Surely God had ample opportunity to further illustrate that conclusion over that 1500 years,but nothing.Given the lack of women leaders in the Bible,could it be that there IS a good reason for men alone at the highest responsibilities?

Do you believe that the Bible records the name and gender of every person who served during the entire history of Israel in positions of "highest spiritual leadership?"

IOW how can you say that there was a complete absence of women, with the exception of Deborah?

[Johann]

Yet it doesn't do away with the fact that there is a heirarchy in equality in God's economy. "Obey those who RULE over you, and be submissive, for they watch over your souls, as those who must give account."

Are you issuing your personal verdict fully in accord with the North American Division of the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists?

[doug yowell]

Do you believe that the Bible records the name and gender of every person who served during the entire history of Israel in positions of "highest spiritual leadership?"

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

Yet it doesn't do away with the fact that there is a heirarchy in equality in God's economy. "Obey those who RULE over you, and be submissive, for they watch over your souls, as those who must give account."

Are you issuing your personal verdict fully in accord with the North American Division of the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists?

Well, that's certainly an interesting way to phrase your question (it was a question,right?)Maybe in your haste to challenge my answer you didn't notice that I had quoted from Heb.13:17 although I could have also included many others in support of the Biblical teaching of a heavenly heirarchy. So my personal verdict seems to be in full harmony with God's Word and example.Whether or not NAD's verdict is in full accord with Scriptural authority I cannot say as I don't know what they've concluded about spiritual heirachy.

[ClubV12]

Doug says,

"Yet it doesn't do away with the fact that there is a heirarchy in equality in God's economy. "Obey those who RULE over you, and be submissive, for they watch over your souls, as those who must give account."

Johann, I suspect you and Doug are closer in agreement on this verse than is readily apparent from this thread!

In other words, I sense that you, Johann, like me, wrestle with these ideas of submitting ourselves one to another, honoring those appointed by God to leadership positions. I wonder, what soulful issues David had to wrestle with in honoring Saul as also one appointed by God as a leader? Certainly Saul was a mess and far from God, but Davids attitude toward leadership is worthy of serious contemplation.

[debbym]

Quote:

Where do we find that qualification for women as ministers in Scripture? Are you then advocating that both men and women who serve in pastoral roles should be married?

i am referring to the principle that if one is not responsible in their family relationships, where we are called to minister first, then how should we assume to minister to members of our Church family and extended community?

i have not formed any view about the requirements of marriage.

we do have the church policy for men to be married. there is a lot to learn about oneself, and serving others from the growth that happens in marriage.

i know a single guy that is an amazing dynamo lay minister in prison ministries, i don't think it has hindered his ministry at all to not be married.

you do not have to be married to have family relationships to be responsible to.

ministering to others is a sacred trust. God knows how vulnerable and weak and erring we are, so whoever does it, does need a deep consecration, and is more accountable to a higher standard of conduct in their home, to their family members, and in the community.

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

we do have the church policy for men to be married. there is a lot to learn about oneself, and serving others from the growth that happens in marriage.

False.

The Church has learned the hard way that pressuring its clergy into marriage is not good policy.

There is a SDA Church 1.4 miles from where I am writing now that has a single person as an Assoc. Pastor and who has never been married.

I attend a large SDA Church. For quite some time it had a pastor who was not married and never had been married.

In the U.S. single men can serve as pastors and be ordained. Single women can serve as pastors and be commissioned.

We do not require our clergy to leave ministry if their spouse dies.

We may (?) not require our clergy to leave ministry if they divorce.

Unmarried male Seminary students are hired by Conferences and set on the road to ordination.

Here us what the 1992 MINISTER'S MANUAL, page 80 says:

Quote:

Marriage before ordination is recommended but not required.

For a long time, marriage has NOT been required.

NOTE: I have no idea as to why a couple of words are listed in blue and double underlined.

[debbym]

Quote:

The Church has learned the hard way that pressuring its clergy into marriage is not good policy...

Marriage before ordination is recommended but not required.

ahh this is good to find,

thank-you very much

so when i hear those seminary students talking, it is just about the recommendation, and hoping it will give them a better chance of being hired.

good news.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

Deborah was both prophetess and Judge.

Yes, but there were many prophetesses in Israel's 1500+ year history yet Deborah was the ONLY judge or "head" leader during that period (Athaliah excepted). And, again, Ellen White (for what it's worth)noted that her leadership role was due to the absence of the "usual magistrates" which were historially exclusively men.

[debbym]

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So then - when the need arises - let a woman be judge and prophet and rule over the administration composed of men etc?

Interesting that even the priests and Levites would be subject to her messages, warnings, corrections from God and judgment in civil matters.

And yet she was not called to be a priest nor to officiate in the temple.

because of the sanitation situation, and health guidance at the time, women were under heavy inconveniences with their menses times, and we do not have this issue today.

[olger]

HMS Senior was asked what he believed about womens ordination. He said "Sure. If we ever run out of men."

He was opposed to it, according to those who knew him personally.

[Tom Wetmore]

...good point, and the Levites were also required to do the physical work of caring for, dismantling and carrying the tabernacle itself. Also one has to recognize that slaughtering and hefting dead animals up on the alter was labor intensive exercise. Bottom line is that correlation between OT priesthood and NT ministry quickly break down. Fundamentally the intercessory role of the OT priesthood was ended at the cross. That major paradigm shift gave rise to the NT view of the "priesthood of all believers", young and old, Jew and Greek, bond and free, male and female.

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

HMS Senior was asked what he believed about womens ordination. He said "Sure. If we ever run out of men."

That is exactly what has happened at times and in places.

In those times and places God has used women to continue His work.

So, why not ordain them?

[Johann]

At the Danish Union in session today two young male licensed ministers refused ordination in solidarity with the female ministers who have not been ordained. I understand both presented their reasons in their public testimonies to the audience.

A young ordained male minister in the Norwegian Union has returned his ordination certificate to his union office pending the ordination being extended to the female pastors. Such deposits had already been approved by the union administration.

[doug yowell]

HMS Senior was asked what he believed about womens ordination. He said "Sure. If we ever run out of men."

He was opposed to it, according to those who knew him personally.

He once told me that personally.

[Tom Wetmore]

And on that point he and the pope are in agreement...