Stan Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Interesting..... Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon1 Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Interesting map Stan. But the native Genocide was real, not attempted. And it continues to this day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Naomi Posted October 14, 2012 Administrators Share Posted October 14, 2012 Living in the Indian Nation of the US where we have more Indian (Tribal Headquarters)Nations than any other state and most of the land is owned and controlled by Native Americans I fail to see the genocide being continued today. Quote If your dreams are not big enough to scare you, they are not big enough for God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Wonder how many times those lines changed in N.America before the european settlers came? This was not a land of pacifists strolling thru the prairie grass hand in hand together. They looted,burned,raped,took captives for their own amusement or material gain. Some captives,if fortunate,assimilated into the capturing tribe and survived.Others had a life of abuse and drudgery if allowed to live.If a stronger tribe wanted land of a weaker tribe,they took it by force. So many attribute the mind set of today to that period. It was simply the way every culture either did or had done to them.Crossing the ocean did not mysteriously change and wipe out the mindset since creation. Land was only yours if you could hold onto it. Doesn't make any of it right. Didn't make the brutality of the Native Americans right nor that of the european settlers. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted October 14, 2012 Author Share Posted October 14, 2012 The model of Governance for the British Commonwealth and the US grew out out the election process of the 6 Nation group in the Eastern part of North America. Representation, voting etc, they were a lot more cultured and civilized than the Europeans were at the same time period. Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon1 Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Living in the Indian Nation of the US where we have more Indian (Tribal Headquarters)Nations than any other state and most of the land is owned and controlled by Native Americans I fail to see the genocide being continued today. Yes Naomi, it's likely that where the Nations have the most land & autonomy, they will be the strongest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 The model of Governance for the British Commonwealth and the US grew out out the election process of the 6 Nation group in the Eastern part of North America. Representation, voting etc, they were a lot more cultured and civilized than the Europeans were at the same time period. I guess it depends on what cultured and civilized means Ute and apaches forced the apaches off their land and into northern New Mexico One tribe of Pawnee practiced child sacrifice.Taking a girl from another tribe captive.Treating her like a fattening hog thru the winter and killing her in the spring.That certainly isn't to civilized Ojibwe wanted the land of the Lakota and took it by force Pawnee and Kansa fought bitterly Susquahannas Eries Huron were enemies of the Iroquois and fought many bloody battles in this peaceful land Many other tribes were at war with one another.They wanted what another tribe had and took it Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted October 14, 2012 Author Share Posted October 14, 2012 Wonder if they ever burned people at the stake for having a different faith system. Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Naomi Posted October 14, 2012 Administrators Share Posted October 14, 2012 It is what it is ... or was what it was Quote If your dreams are not big enough to scare you, they are not big enough for God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Naomi Posted October 14, 2012 Administrators Share Posted October 14, 2012 The model of Governance for the British Commonwealth and the US grew out out the election process of the 6 Nation group in the Eastern part of North America. Representation, voting etc, they were a lot more cultured and civilized than the Europeans were at the same time period. To be honest, what part of earth's history could be referred to as cultured and civilized? Quote If your dreams are not big enough to scare you, they are not big enough for God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Naomi Posted October 14, 2012 Administrators Share Posted October 14, 2012 Wonder if they ever burned people at the stake for having a different faith system. No, different belief systems ... perhaps being tied at the stake, covered with honey or other sweetner and allowing red ants to cover the body would run a close second. Quote If your dreams are not big enough to scare you, they are not big enough for God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Naomi Posted October 14, 2012 Administrators Share Posted October 14, 2012 Originally Posted By: Naomi Living in the Indian Nation of the US where we have more Indian (Tribal Headquarters)Nations than any other state and most of the land is owned and controlled by Native Americans I fail to see the genocide being continued today. Yes Naomi, it's likely that where the Nations have the most land & autonomy, they will be the strongest. From the inside looking out .... Richest perhaps ... not necessarily the strongest. They have their issues ... just sayin............ Quote If your dreams are not big enough to scare you, they are not big enough for God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted October 14, 2012 Moderators Share Posted October 14, 2012 Stan, I think you are being unreasonable. It's only genocide when foreigners do it. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon1 Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Thanks, Naomi. A little cash to keep the wolf from the door is not a bad thing. And of course everyone has troubles. The first paragraph of this Chris Hedges interview highlights the situation of the Pine Ridge Reservation in South Dakota: http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/11032-...ll-we-have-left Canada has a dark history of Native Residential Schools - the last one we know of closed in 2009. Huronia in Orillia, Ontario. Thus several generations of healthy native children taken from their parents and placed in Church & State run schools where the mortality rate was recorded at 50% by one federal govt. physician. Smallpox & tuberculosis were introduced. It's a horrible tale with the purpose of eradicating the original tenants of the land - the ones who hold treaty rights. Many today live in abject poverty in Canada's North without running water or electricity and effectively separated from the survival skills of their forefathers. The government watches and waits. Death by one thousand cuts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Wonder if they ever burned people at the stake for having a different faith system. Yes they did,read history.They also were known to jam slivers of wood under fingernails and set the splinters on fire. Besides people of all countries committing atrocious acts on one another,what is it you would like to see done about it now. No settlers that were guilty or native americans that were guilty are alive today. Atrocity still continues worldwide,tell me why it is thought that only N.Americans did this against peaceful people? Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Stan, I think you are being unreasonable. It's only genocide when foreigners do it. And I think you are being something more than unreasonable. There isn't anything that was said to indicate that is true.Genocide is genocide. Many people like to look at past history thru the lens of their understanding today. Conquering other lands was a fact of life,No matter how wrong it was it was not considered wrong. We went to a reassembled Ojibwe camp here in MN. One party asked the tour guide if it was true the land had previously belonged to the Lakota.She said yes and was quite proud to inform us,"Till we took it,we were bigger and stronger" Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 It would probably be productive for Jewish people when confronted by Germans to make sure they remember and atone for what the Nazis did.Meet a catholic, make sure to try to put them on a guilt trip over the Inquisition. My mothers family lost everything in Scotland,wonder if anyone would feel they owed me ownership to a very impressive castle? Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted October 14, 2012 Moderators Share Posted October 14, 2012 Conquering other lands was a fact of life,No matter how wrong it was it was not considered wrong. I wonder how many survivors of the Nazi death camps or the Rawandan genocide would consider their experience a "fact of life" Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Originally Posted By: bonnie Conquering other lands was a fact of life,No matter how wrong it was it was not considered wrong. I wonder how many survivors of the Nazi death camps or the Rawandan genocide would consider their experience a "fact of life" It is definatly a fact of their life.Something that never should have happened. But more to the point what purpose would it serve to point that out when encountering Germans in this day and age that had nothing to do with it.Can they recover what they lost? Can those that didn't exist or never had anything to do with it compensate for what their country under Nazi rule did. The Native American situation is a little different in that those harboring ill will towards the European settlers did exactly the same thing. Strong tribes did their best to wipe out or subdue the weaker tribes. If we are to compensate the Ojibwe for the european settlers taking their land,should they in turn compensate the Lakota for taking it from them just because they could? What is it you think should be done? Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted October 15, 2012 Moderators Share Posted October 15, 2012 Quote: Germans in this day and age that had nothing to do with it.Can they recover what they lost? Can those that didn't exist or never had anything to do with it compensate for what their country under Nazi rule did. Your approach is more matter of fact than fact of life. Germans today recognize their collective guilt. They still compensate today. A new settlement was reached only last year. Most subjects of colonial powers have been taught to view their genocide as part and parcel of the natural course of history. It's more palatable that way. Have you noticed the similarities between manifest destiny and libensraum? Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Your approach is more matter of fact than fact of life. Germans today recognize their collective guilt. They still compensate today. A new settlement was reached only last year. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 As foster parents we had two young Sioux Indian boys for a couple of years. They were raised to believe that any "white" person today had collective guilt for past sins and should pay. It caused a few problems in the beginning.Over and above what the cty paid for their care,what we did for our boys we did for them out of pocket.Their parents of course kept reinforcing "we owed them" I took them back thru history.When I agreed we owed them and asked them how much and for what we went thru history to determine how much as a hypothetical. We were to pay them so much for taking their land but didn't have any answer as to what the Ojibwe owed them.Going thru some atrocious acts of the Sioux Indian tribe and trying to determine what they owed their victims today the answer was "That is different".It was a sign of bravery and honor.In time their perspective changed. It was not a sign of bravery or honor no matter who is doing it.But it is this world and they could no more change what their ancestors had done and make restitution to other tribes anymore than I could apologize and make restitution for what my ancestors had done. While they had a way of looking at what their people had done with pride and as right,I did not. Both of us did have the ability to not act in a like manner Nothing that either of us did could change what had happened. I did not owe them any more than the Ojibwe owed them today for past sins,sins committed long before either was born. There will always be people that are persecuted because of their race/religion or skin color. Nothing about it is right/moral or good. To blame those of today for what was done as this country was settled is pointless. Monetary reparations doesn't change the past,it would be never ending Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 Quote: Many other tribes were at war with one another.They wanted what another tribe had and took it A reminder of what any peoples and lands are when not under the control of what some call, "The curse of the Law". What would help the Law to be properly understood is the capacity given by Jesus to any and all that in Him the Law becomes not only possible to keep but provides safety and security for those who abide in them. Time for Jesus to come. "Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.”"John 18:36 NKJV God blesses! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 Quote: Many other tribes were at war with one another.They wanted what another tribe had and took it A reminder of what any peoples and lands are when not under the control of what some call, "The curse of the Law". What would help the Law to be properly understood is the capacity given by Jesus to any and all that in Him the Law becomes not only possible to keep but provides safety and security for those who abide in them. Time for Jesus to come. "Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.”"John 18:36 NKJV God blesses! It is never right or justified to take what you want by force. This is the world almost since the beginning. There are some people that want to make it unique to N.America. Somehow settlers coming here were supposed to undergo this complete transformation as they crossed the ocean. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 Quote: Somehow settlers coming here were supposed to undergo this complete transformation as they crossed the ocean. Some were coming only to get away from oppression. Others came with vision for doing things different. Such was the person, I believe his name was Roger Williams, who began the establishment of the state of Rhode Island. "Where there is no vision [no redemptive revelation of God], the people perish; but he who keeps the law [of God, which includes that of man]—blessed (happy, fortunate, and enviable) is he. A servant will not be corrected by words alone; for though he understands, he will not answer [the master who mistreats him]."Proverbs 29:18,19 AMP parenthesis brackets theirs LHC God blesses! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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