JoeMo Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 I've been a member of CA for over 9 months now; and have been active in many discussions. The Theological Town Hall is generally where I hang out. Many discussions either start or evolve into "saved by grace" or "saved by works"; and others either start as or evolve into church unity discussions. Many of you hang out in the same place - you know what I'm talking about. Many of you also know that I have a pretty liberal theology. Although I am a card-carrying Adventist, I am open to certain doctrine that is outside of the typical SDA purview. I am also quite open-minded; and I must admit that several of the conservatives on this site pose persuasive evidence from scripture and the SoP to support the conservative viewpoint. being a strict legalist during a large portion of my Adventist experience, I understand how they think and why they think the way they do. In the time I have been here, I have never seen anyone on one side of an issue "convert" anyone else. My question is, how do we "know" if we are on the right side of an issue? I can say "I know because I know because I know"; or because "God showed me". - Or is it my imagination? We should be able to "know" we are on the right side of an issue if our salvation and eternal life depends on it ...or does it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 As my Mennonite friend Lee says "Don't be so open minded that your brains fall out." Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted October 21, 2012 Members Share Posted October 21, 2012 I'd say you answered your own ?. Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted October 21, 2012 Author Share Posted October 21, 2012 pk, I don't think I have answered my own question - I have stated my opinion based on my faith. Others have just as strong of an opinion of the other side of the fence; and I am granting them the "grace" of some semblance of credibility. My wife and I have this discussion frequently. Although a member of a liberal congregation, I regularly lead praise and teach Sabbath School at a relatively conservative church; and, as a liberal, I sometimes feel inadequate in answering some of their challenges to my liberalism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibs Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 Upon leaving and going back to Heaven Jesus told us He would pray the Father and He would send the Comforter. The Comforter is Jesus Christ by Spirit and He will come and dwell within all who surrender all, death of self, and true repentance. Then this is realized, Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. That is a promise and a highly desired one to receive. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted October 21, 2012 Author Share Posted October 21, 2012 How do I know it is the Comforter that tells me "it is by grace that you are saved"? How do you know it is the Comforter that tells you that "no one who defiles the law will be saved?" Why would He tell us two opposing messages? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 We must spend time on our knees before His Word. God speaks primarily through His word! Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibs Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 How do I know it is the Comforter that tells me "it is by grace that you are saved"? How do you know it is the Comforter that tells you that "no one who defiles the law will be saved?" Why would He tell us two opposing messages? JoeMo, Those are not opposing messages. Ro 6:1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? It is by grace of God that He will dwell in you and be your strength if you don't refuse it. It is the grace of God that a way is made for you to be saved. To continue in sin definitly will get one resurrected in the second resurrection. The meaning of grace, charis khar'-ece from 5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude):--acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace(- ious), joy, liberality, pleasure, thank(-s, -worthy). Great love has much grace but can never condone sin. Love will discipline against sin. We must never make what we might consider the least sin a small thing, it is not. It is disobedience. Remember Adam and Eve. One little disobedience toppled this whole thing into sin! Right at 6,000 yrs of it is not light. Then His Grace came into play, a way was made all could be saved from it. Not in it, that is the cause in the first place. Is he going to give us the lattitude to sin and get away with it and not Adam and Eve? No way Hosea! 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 Quote: Is he going to give us the lattitude to sin and get away with it and not Adam and Eve? No way Hosea! I've heard it all now. So you don't believe that Adam and Eve will be saved and live forever? Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasd Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 >>How do you know it is the Comforter that tells you that "no one who defiles the law will be saved?"<< And why does St John always use entole when speaking of New Testamental law and nomos when speaking of the OT laws? Moreoever, the times St John mentioned law in Revelation, he utilized entole. OT law does not seem to be mentioned in Revelation? Oy. So, according to the Beloved Disciple, one separate laws by definition, yes? Okay, so one law speaks to sin and the other to love. Easy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 Again, are you without blame before God's law? If so, judge away....If not, please don't preach to us. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibs Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 Woody it is without doubt Adam and Eve are saved but they suffered and all since have suffered. Yes the Redeemer was known to them for sure and their repentance was complete with very very strong and deep remorse as they knew what their disobedience cost. My point is sin is belittled and theirs was just eating of the tree told not to. Look what disobedience has done! Why don't we hate sin more than we do? Because we have those who keep telling itching ears it is no big thing. There is not such thing as a little sin. We have a goody goody message today that is going to cause millions to be lost. How do we know what is truth? His Word and if He dwells within His Spirit not only convicts of sin but convicts of truth when you have arrived at it. Right from wrong is no mystery to Him who desires to really know! 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 Legalism is alive and well. Legalism makes good atheist. It gives you no hope - it's a yoke of bondage. The gospel, that gives assurance...it gives hope. I am perfect in Christ even though in my experience I am less than perfect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 My question is, how do we "know" if we are on the right side of an issue? I can say "I know because I know because I know"; or because "God showed me". - Or is it my imagination? We should be able to "know" we are on the right side of an issue if our salvation and eternal life depends on it ...or does it? That's easy. How do we Convert Catholics? It is by an appeal to objectivity, critical thinking, sound exegesis in our Bible heremneutic -- sticking with the facts - etc. Take a look at the George Knight - Romans 2 thread as a perfect example. As it winds down it is very clear that to oppose the Bible teaching on the Word of God to the saints - you must be willing to ignore those texts and only read the ones dealing with the problem of the lost. Thus the thread reduces to something of the form - "hey - here are the texts - what have you to say about them? Simply ignoring them is not the solution". And frankly - that is a pretty blatantly obvious point to conclude with for those of us married to the idea of sola-scriptura testing of all doctrine. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;) That's a true statement, if you are under law. If you are under the OC. That's why previous to the above statement Paul said, "as many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law" The believer has been delivered from under the law: Romans 7:6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by (we died in Christ - see Romans 6:6/Rom 7:4), so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter (the OC). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;) That's a true statement, if you are under law. If you are under the OC. That's why previous to the above statement Paul said, "as many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law" The believer has been delivered from under the law: Romans 7:6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by (we died in Christ - see Romans 6:6/Rom 7:4), so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter (the OC). Indeed you have a good focus on the problem that is faced by the lost - very well. The lost must first be delivered from the condemnation of the law and then as Romans 8 and Romans 6 point out - the lost must also be delivered from slavery to sin. I will expand on that in the next post just to help you make your case in that regard. But in the mean time - you seem to need to ignore what the Bible says to the saved saints. For example -- 1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God". And in the chapter just before that Paul says to Christians that he is reproving for their sins - 1Cor 6 9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. Romans 6 10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, 13 -and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. 15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? Rev 14:12 - the saints are those who "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" 1 John 2 1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; James 2 8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF," you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, "DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," also said, "DO NOT COMMIT MURDER." Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty 1John 2 The Test of Knowing Him 3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked. John 14:15 "If you love Me KEEP My commandments" John 15:14 "Love Me and KEEP My Commandments" Taken right out of the Ten Commandments -- in this case commandment number 3. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 As promised -- in this post I give Robert's subject regarding the problem faced by the lost - its due amount of time and focus -- The problem for the lost according to the Bible. Rom 3: 9 What shall we conclude then? Are we any better ? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; 12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.'' 13 "" THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE, WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,'' "" THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS''; 14 "" WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS''; 15 "" THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD, 16 DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS, 17 AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN.'' 18 "" THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES.'' Rom 3:20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. Rom 3:23...for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God 1 John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us Romans 8 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the Law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 1Cor 6 9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 John 2 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. Romans 3 and Galatians 3 agree - that lost are lost. No amount of obedience on the part of the lost - can save them. The lost person has only one solution - the Gospel with its forgiveness, and new birth, and new heart and freedom from the penalty of sin - and freedom from slavery to sin. Clearly - we all can see this part. No need to keep circling back to it in an effort to avoid what the Bible says to saved saints by comparison. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted October 22, 2012 Moderators Share Posted October 22, 2012 Hey, JoeMo, do you have proof that you are a liberal? I do. I have a certificate from the Woody Institute of Liberalism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted October 22, 2012 Author Share Posted October 22, 2012 Hi Gerry, The only proof that I am a liberal comes from the general acclimation (or condemnation?) of the conservatives who dare to question my concrete theology and steel trap logic! I may not have my certificate from the Woody Institute of Liberalism; but I'm working on it (Woody won't send me one until I finish my monthly payments). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibs Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 Well Bro. JoeMo and must include Robert in this evaluation of mine.. We many of us knew you uns have set your theology in the concrete and it sure is a steel trap logic. I sure hope you don't catch any in it. You laid a suble joke and ya gets one back, LOL. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 Hi Gerry,The only proof that I am a liberal comes from the general acclimation (or condemnation?) of the conservatives who dare to question my concrete theology and steel trap logic! I may not have my certificate from the Woody Institute of Liberalism; but I'm working on it (Woody won't send me one until I finish my monthly payments). Hang in there JoeMo - soon I predict that you will join Gerry and I in the Woody Institute of Liberalism. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibs Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 Ah hopes Gerry will stay outa that "steel trap". LOL. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 Ah hopes Gerry will stay outa that "steel trap". LOL. I think Gerry may be slipping in that direction. He argued with Robert for years, and then he just quit all of a sudden. I think Robert somehow got to him, and he heard that old stuff so many times, that he just finally started believing it. I hope I'm wrong Gerry. Set me straight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. T. Cross Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 I've been a member of CA for over 9 months now; and have been active in many discussions. The Theological Town Hall is generally where I hang out. Many discussions either start or evolve into "saved by grace" or "saved by works"; and others either start as or evolve into church unity discussions. Many of you hang out in the same place - you know what I'm talking about. Many of you also know that I have a pretty liberal theology. Although I am a card-carrying Adventist, I am open to certain doctrine that is outside of the typical SDA purview. I am also quite open-minded; and I must admit that several of the conservatives on this site pose persuasive evidence from scripture and the SoP to support the conservative viewpoint. being a strict legalist during a large portion of my Adventist experience, I understand how they think and why they think the way they do. In the time I have been here, I have never seen anyone on one side of an issue "convert" anyone else. My question is, how do we "know" if we are on the right side of an issue? I can say "I know because I know because I know"; or because "God showed me". - Or is it my imagination? We should be able to "know" we are on the right side of an issue if our salvation and eternal life depends on it ...or does it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Quote: I think really to much time is spent on wondering which side is right and not enough worshiping and celebrating your God.... WOW !!! Great Words EmptyCross Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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