the truth remains

[Gibs]

Sky, it is another way the Father represents Himself to us is by His Spirit which Jesus declares that God is. Jo 4:24.

The Holy Spirit and the Father are one and the same.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[skyblue888]

Here is part of a letter Martin Luther wrote to the then pope Leo taken from D'Aubigne's History of the Reformation of the Sixteenth Century, p.202:

"'From faith,' continues Luther,'proceeds the love of God; from love proceeds a life full of liberty, charity, and joy. Oh! how noble and elevated is the christian life! But, alas! no one knows it, no one preaches it. BY FAITH THE CHRISTIAN ASCENDS TO GOD; by love, he descends even to man, and yet he abides ever with God. This is true liberty--a liberty which surpasses all others as much as the heavens are above the earth."

Very similar language used by E.G. White:

"It is the privilege of every believer in Christ to possess Christ's nature, a nature FAR ABOVE that which Adam forfeited by transgression." The Upward Look,18.

"God will accept every one that comes to Him trusting wholly in the MERITS of the crucified Savior. LOVE SPRINGS UP IN THE HEART. There may me no ecstasy of feeling but there is an abiding, peaceful trust." Selected Messages, Vol.1,354.

"Every where Luther endeavoured to establish the truths that he had discovered and to enlighten the members of his order--'Do not bind yourselves to Aristotle, or to any other teacher of a deceitful philosophy,' said he to the monks,'but read the Word of God with diligence. Do not look for salvation in your own strength or in your good works, but in the MERITS of Christ and in God's GRACE." D'aubigne's History of the Reformation of the Sixteenth Century,78.

"Christ places His own merits upon man and thus ELEVATES him in the scales of moral value with God." E.G. White, Our Father Cares,121.

Hence we read, "The only faith that will BENEFIT us is that which embraces Him as a personal Savior: which appropriates His MERITS to ourselves." Desire of Ages,347.

"Unless he makes it his lifebusiness to behold the uplifted Savior and to accept the MERITS which it is his PRIVILEGE to CLAIM, the sinner CAN NO MORE BE SAVED THAN PETER could walk upon the water unless he kept his eyes fixed steadily upon Jesus." Testimonies to Ministers,93.

"Now it has been Satan's determined purpose to eclipse the view of Jesus and lead men to look to man, and trust to man, and be educated to expect help from man. For years the church has been looking to man and expecting much from man, but not looking to Jesus, in whom our hopes of eternal life are centered... Many had lost sight of Jesus. They needed to have their eyes directed to His DIVINE PERSON, to His MERITS, and to His CHANGELESS LOVE for the human family... THIS IS THE MESSAGE THAT GOD COMMANDED TO BE GIVEN TO THE WORLD. It is the THIRD ANGEL'S MESSAGE which is to be proclaimed with a loud voice, and attended with the OUTPOURING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT in a large measure." Testimonies to Ministers,93,92.

sky

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

Deduction, Gail, a third person and the first person would be two different ones. You see I don't and cannot see a third person.

You already have two with God the Father and Jesus. And yet they are one God.

Except when you are talking about God, you can't think in terms of human language. I have doubts that the word person can even rightly portrays the sense correctly, but it is something that we can grasp. Not a human person, but a person.

If His witness borne with our spirits is acceptable to God, who am I to disagree? If His intercession before God WITH that of Jesus is acceptable, why isn't He to be counted?

Asscherick makes a good point when he says that how you see the Spirit affects how you think of salvation. Why? Because of sin: God the Father gives his holy law. Jesus paid the price that transgression cost. The Spirit is the way that it will become obeyed by those who follow God. It is a heart thing all the way along.

We pray to the Father, through Jesus, in the Spirit.

Well put Gail.

sky

[skyblue888]

Some peole deny that Jesus is God;

Your testimony or confession affirms that He is God - God in the flesh; or God as the Man Jesus Christ.

But now, what do you believe about Jesus Christ's PRE-EXISTENCE AS GOD BEING GOD THE SON OF GOD BEFORE He became Man as The Son of God and man?

For although before Jesus Christ became Man in the flesh, "He in the beginning" - having been Spirit - "was God" the Son like the Father was God and has ever been God the Father ever having been Spirit like the Holy Spirit was God and ever has been God The Holy Spirit ever having been Spirit.

Gerhard

__________

Before Christ came into this world He was in the form of God. Philippians 2:5,6.

This form of God which He always had had He relinquished for ever and took the form of a man. (Phil.2:7,8) But the glories of the form of God He for a while relinquished. At His ascension His human form was glorified with the glories of the form of God to be retained for ever and ever.

sky

[skyblue888]

Sky, it is another way the Father represents Himself to us is by His Spirit which Jesus declares that God is. Jo 4:24.

The Holy Spirit and the Father are one and the same.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

"There are Three living Persons of the heavenly Trio." Evangelism,615.

"The power of the prince of evil can only be held in check by the power of God in the Third Person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit." Special Testimony, Series A. No.10,p.37.

These statements connot be controverted and they are in harmony with the teachings of Holy Writ.

sky

"Christ determined that when He ascended from this earth, He would bestow a gift on those who had believed on Him, and those who should believe on Him. What gift could He bestow rich enough to signalize and grace His ascension to the mediatorial throne? It must be worthy of His greatness and His royalty. He determined to give His representative, the Third Person of the Godhead. This gift could not be excelled. He would give all gifts in one, and therefore the divine Spirit, that converting, enlightening, and sanctifying power, would be His donation." E.G. White, Bible Commentary, Vol.6,1052,1053.

"The gift of the Holy Spirit cannot be excelled for "The Comforter that Christ promised to send after He ascended to Heaven, is the Spirit in all the fullness of the Godhead, making manifest the power of divine grace to all who receive and believe in Christ as a personal Savior." Evangelism,615.

[Gibs]

Quote:

Some peole deny that Jesus is God;

Your testimony or confession affirms that He is God - God in the flesh; or God as the Man Jesus Christ.

But now, what do you believe about Jesus Christ's PRE-EXISTENCE AS GOD BEING GOD THE SON OF GOD BEFORE He became Man as The Son of God and man?

For although before Jesus Christ became Man in the flesh, "He in the beginning" - having been Spirit - "was God" the Son like the Father was God and has ever been God the Father ever having been Spirit like the Holy Spirit was God and ever has been God The Holy Spirit ever having been Spirit.

Befor Bethlehem and coming in Jesus, He was Yahweh, LORD OF HOSTS. the Father was Yahweh, LORD king of Israel.

Jesus said of Himself in the beginning,

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

He wasn't born or created, He was sent out of the Father Himself of the Fathers substance. He and the Father are truly one. This is not an imposibility with our God to make of Himself our redeemer.

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

The Father and His Redeemer are the elohiym and are of one substance.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

[skyblue888]

The Truth Remains

More from D'Aubigne's History of the Reformation of the Sixteenth Century, p.17:

"The SUFFERINGS and MERITS of Christ were looked upon as an IDLE TALE, or as the FICTIONS of Homer. There was no thought of the faith by which we become partakers of the Saviour's righteousness and of the heritage of eternal life. Christ was looked upon as a severe judge, prepared to condemn all who should not have recourse to the intercession of the saints, or to papal indulgences. Other intercessors appeared in His place:--first the Virgin Mary, like the Diana of paganism, and then the saints, whose numbers were continually augmented by the popes. These mediators granted their intercession only to such applicants as had deserved well of the orders founded by them. For this it was necessary to do, not what God had commanded in His Word, but to perform a number of works invented by monks and priests, and which brought money to the treasury. These works were Ave-Marias, the prayers of Saint Ursula and of Saint Bridget: they must chant and cry night and day. There were as many resorts for pilgrims as there were mountainss, forests, and valleys. But these penances might be compounded for with money. The people, therefore, brought to the convents and to the priests money and every thing that had any value--fowls, ducks, geese, eggs, wax, straw, butter, and cheese. Then the hymns resounded, the bells rang, incense filled the sanctuary, sacrifices were offered up, the larders overflowed, the glasses went round, and masses terminated and concealed these pious orgies. The bishops no longer preached, but they consecrated priests, bells, monks, and cemeteries; and all this brought in a large revenue. Bones, arms, and feet were preserved in gold and silver boxes; they were given out during mass for the faithful to kiss, and this too was a source of great profit.'All these people maintained that the pope, sitting as God in the temple of God, could not err, and they would not suffer any contradiction.'"

One of the Reformers, having been enlightened by the Lord as to the simplicity of the matter of salvation, wrote these magnificent words:

"'O Father,' he cried,'we had devised for ouselves many useless follies, but You have placed Your Word before me like a torch, and You have touched my heart, in order THAT I MAY HOLD IN ABOMINATION ALL OTHER MERITS SAVE THOSE OF Jesus." Martyn, Vol.3, ch.13.

sky

[skyblue888]

The Truth Remains

"The more we feel the truth that all men are guilty before God, the more also shall we cling to Christ-(to His merits) as the only source of grace. How could we then place the church in the same rank with Christ, since it is but an assembly of all those who are found in the same wretched state by nature? But SO SOON AS WE ATTRIBUTE TO MAN A PECULIAR HOLINESS, A PERSONAL MERIT, EVERY THING IS CHANGED. The clergy and the monks are looked upon as the most natural CHANNELS through which to receive the GRACE of God. This was what happened often after the times of Pelagius. Salvation, taken from the hands of God, fell into those of the priests, who set themselves in the place of our Lord. Souls thirsting for pardon, were no more to look to Heaven, but to the church, and above all to its pretended head. To these blinded souls the Roman pontiff was God. Hence the greatness of the popes--hence unutterable abuses. The evil spread still further. When Pelagianism laid down the doctrine that man could attain a state of perfect santification, it affirmed also that the MERITS of saints and martyrs might be applied to the church. A peculiar power was attributed to their intercession. Prayers were made to them; their aid was invoked in all the sorrows of life; and a real idolatry thus supplanted the adoration of the living and true God." D'Aubigne's History of the Reformation of the Sixteenth Century, p.15.*Parenthesis supplied.

"Discussions may be entered into by mortals streneously advocating CREATURE MERIT, and each man striving for the supremacy, but they simply do not know that all the time they are misrepresenting the truth as it is in Jesus. They are in a fog of bewilderment. They need the divine love of God which is represented by gold tried in the fire; they need the white raiment of Christ's pure character; and they need the heavenly eyesalve that they might DISCERN WITH ASTONISHMENT THE UTTER WORTHLESSNESS OF CREATURE MERIT TO EARN THE WAVES OF ETERNAL LIFE." Faith & Works,23.

"When we ACKNOWLEDGE our APPRECIATION of Christ's MERITS fragrance is given to our intercessions. When we approach God through the VIRTUE of the Redeemer's MERITS, Christ places us close by His side, encircling us with His human arm, while with His divine arm He grasps the throne of the Infinite. He puts His MERITS as sweet incense in the censor in our hands, in order to encourage our petitions." E.G. White, Our Father Cares,120

"Looking unto Jesus and trusting in His MERITS we appropriate the blessings of light and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit." Testimonies, Vol.5,744.

[skyblue888]

To his opponents Luther replied,

"'We can always see the MOTE in our brother's eye, but we overlook the BEAM in our own. Who does not know that a man rarely puts forth any new idea without having some apperance of pride, and without being accused of exciting quarrels? IF HUMILITY HERSELF SHOULD UNDERTAKE SOMETHING NEW, HER OPPONENTS WOULD ACCUSE HER OF PRIDE! Why were Christ and all the martyrs put to death? Because they seemed to be proud contemners of the wisdom of the time, and because they advanced novelties, without having first humbly taken counsel of the oracles of the ancient opinions.

Do not let the wise of our days expect from me humility, or rather hypocrisy, enough to ask their advice, before publishing what duty compels me to say. Whatever I do will be done, not by the prudence of men, but by the counsel of God. If the work be of God, who shall stop it? if it be not, who can forward it? Not my will, nor theirs, nor ours; but thy will, O Holy Father, which art in Heaven.'--

What courage, what noble enthusiasm, what confidence in God, and above all, what truth in these words, and what truth for all ages!" D'Aubigne's History of the Reformation of the Sixteenth Century, p.103.

Today:

"Those to whom the message of truth is spoken seldom ask, 'Is it true?' but 'by whom is it advocated?' Multitudes estimate it by the numbers who accept it; and the question is still asked, 'Have any of the religious leaders believed?' Men are no more favorable to real godliness now than in the days of Christ. They are just as intently seeking earthly good, to the neglect of eternal riches; and it is NOT AN ARGUMENT AGAINST THE TRUTH that large numbers are not ready to accept it, or that it is not received by the world's great men, or even by the relgious leaders." Desire of Ages,459,460.

"A nation's sin and a nation's ruin were due to the religious leaders." Desire of Ages,738.

sky

[Gibs]

Gerhard, who said anything about "inflating". Find the statement and post it with the reply! I think Tom the Moderator was refering to making huge fonts but it is not I that do that. I underline or color to get attention as most are mere surface readers.

And I explained in an above post that Jesus was Yahweh of Hosts before Bethlehem. That the Father gave of Himself that Redeemer, the Father calls Him "His" Redeemer at that early time. He was the egual of the Father Himself of the one and same substance!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[skyblue888]

By comparing the following statements it will be clearly seen that "There is nothing new under the sun. That which has been will be." Ecc.1:9; 1 Cor.10:11.

"The more we feel the truth that all men are guilty before God, the more also shall we cling to Christ-(to His merits) as the only source of grace. How could we then place the church in the same rank with Christ, since it is but an assembly of all those who are found in the same wretched state by nature? But SO SOON AS WE ATTRIBUTE TO MAN A PECULIAR HOLINESS, A PERSONAL MERIT, EVERY THING IS CHANGED. The clergy and the monks are looked upon as the most natural CHANNELS through which to receive the GRACE of God. This was what happened often after the times of Pelagius. Salvation, taken from the hands of God, fell into those of the priests, who set themselves in the place of our Lord. Souls thirsting for pardon, were no more to look to Heaven, but to the church, and above all to its pretended head. To these blinded souls the Roman pontiff was God. Hence the greatness of the popes--hence unutterable abuses. The evil spread still further. When Pelagianism laid down the doctrine that man could attain a state of perfect santification, it affirmed also that the MERITS of saints and martyrs might be applied to the church. A peculiar power was attributed to their intercession. Prayers were made to them; their aid was invoked in all the sorrows of life; and a real idolatry thus supplanted the adoration of the living and true God." D'Aubigne's History of the Reformation of the Sixteenth Century, p.15.*Parenthesis supplied.

"Now it has been Satan's determined purpose to eclipse the view of Jesus and lead men to look to man, and trust to man, and be educated to expect help from man. For years the church has been looking to man and expecting much from man, but not looking to Jesus, in whom our hopes of eternal life are centered... Many had lost sight of Jesus. They needed to have their eyes directed to His DIVINE PERSON, to His MERITS, and to His CHANGELESS LOVE for the human family... THIS IS THE MESSAGE THAT GOD COMMANDED TO BE GIVEN TO THE WORLD. It is the THIRD ANGEL'S MESSAGE which is to be proclaimed with a loud voice and attended with the OUTPOURING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT in a large measure." Testimonies to Ministers,93,92.

"Men have taken unfair advantage of those whom they suppose to be under their jurisdiction. They were determined to bring the individuals under their terms. They would RULE or RUIN. There will be no material change unless a decided movement is made to bring in a different order of things." T.M.360.

"The high-handed power that has been developed, as though position has made men gods makes me afraid and ought to cause fear. It is a curse wherever and by whomsoever it is exercised. This lording it over God's heritage will create such a disgust of man's jurisdiction that a state of insubordination will result. But the Lord will raise up laborers who realize their own nothingness without special help from God. At the time of the first advent of Christ to our world, the men who composed the Sanhedrin exercised their authority in controlling men according to their will. Thus the souls for whom Christ had given His life to free from the bondage of Satan were brought under bondage to him in another form." T.M.361

sky

[Gibs]

The Truth will stand forever and will stand investigation and invites it.

" A converted Jew spoke well. This Jew was attending the theological college in Basel. He came to our Swiss conference and seemed to be interested. He understands Hebrew. He was desirous that our people should give him employment, but as long as he did not esteem the truth of that value to step out upon it from real conviction of duty, we felt he should not be hired to obey the truth. If the truth was not of that value to him that he could make any and every sacrifice for the truth's sake--moving from principle and not be bribed or bought--the work is between God and his own soul. {17MR 330.1}

The question is, What does God say? What does He require? If he has a heart to be obedient to that which he knows to be truth, then his works will be acceptable to God. If he is not conscientious, but would wait to see if he can find a convenient position where it will be no cross to obey the truth, then his obedience is not acceptable to God. He will have a religion of convenience--serve God when it is for his interest to do so, and let it alone and be disobedient when the truth stands in his way of ease or prosperity. {17MR 330.2}

We dared not take up this converted Jew. We must pray for him. We must watch with interest to help him if we can, but leave him as much as possible to his conscience and to his God. {17MR 330.3}

The transgression of the law is sin, and the true believer in Christ will cease to sin. He will abhor sin, which caused so great sufferings to his Redeemer. He will not continue in sin that grace may abound, but he will cast away his sin--will war against the inclinations of the natural heart. This faith is not abstract, but attaches itself to actions. He shows the result of faith, which is obedience. He is learning to walk by faith, not by sight. He lives, yet not he, but Christ lives in him by faith. He eats, drinks, and does all things to the glory of God. Christ is to him first and last and best in everything. {17MR 330.4}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gibs]

What is truth? Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Only by His Spirit will you be guided into all truth even if you go to His Word. Of ourselves we amount to nothing of the Spirit.

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

He will guide into ALL truth and will show the things to come.

The understanding of His Prophecy for the end time we are in at the very end now.

We want the truth on every point. We want it unadulterated with error, and unpolluted by the maxims, customs, and opinions of the world. We want the truth with all its inconvenience. The acceptance of truth ever involves a cross. But Jesus gave his life a sacrifice for us, and shall we not give him our best affections, our holiest aspirations, our fullest service? Christ's yoke we must wear, Christ's burden we must lift; but the Majesty of heaven declares that his yoke is easy and his burden light. Shall we shun the self-denying part of religion? Shall we shun the self-sacrifice, and hesitate to give up the world with all its attractions? Shall we, for whom Christ has done so much, be hearers and not doers of his words? Shall we, by our listless, inactive lives, deny our faith, and make Jesus ashamed to call us his brethren? The ten commandments came from the highest authority, and are we obeying them? They are the will of God made known to man. It was Satan that commenced to war against them, and it is he that inspires men to keep up the warfare. {RH, August 25, 1885 par. 15}

None will enter the holy city, the paradise of God, but as conquerors,--those who have separated themselves from the world, and stood in defense of the faith once delivered to the saints, and have fought the good fight of faith, looking constantly to "Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." Then let us, like Christ, work unselfishly to bring souls to a knowledge of the truth. Our whole heart, body, soul, and strength, are required in this work; and if we labor with fidelity, irrespective of the applause or censure of the world, we shall hear the "well done" from the Majesty of heaven, and receive the crown, the palm branch of victory, and the white linen which is the righteousness of the saints. {RH, August 25, 1885 par. 16}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.