The issue of reincarnation

[Sunlight]

The teachings of Christianity usually deny the possibility of reincarnation. How do you explain the fact that some people remember their past lives?

[Textus Receptus]

The teachings of Christianity usually deny the possibility of reincarnation. How do you explain the fact that some people remember their past lives?

The bible is clear that when we die, we wait in the grave until the resurrection. However, many will use creative theology to suggest otherwise. Below you will find verses which substantiate soul sleep.

Job 14:10

Job 14:14

Psalm 6:5

Psalm 49:15

Daniel 12:2

John 5:28-29

John 3:13

Acts 2:29-34

2 Peter 3:4

Ecclesiastes 9:5

Ecclesiastes 12:7

To believe that the soul is immortal was Lucifer's first lie told in the Garden of Eden -- Gen 3:4-5. Consequentely, this lie is the basis of all pagan religions which was subsequently adopted by Christianity. As you can read from the NT verses, the apostalic church understood that when we die, we wait in the grave. Unfortnately, when the church began to apostate, with the adoption of pagan doctrines, the immortality of the soul became established Christian doctrine -- undoubtably, by the gnostic influences of the time.

Past lives has a long history in Eastern religions which is now seeping into many Christian denomenations; especially the Catholic Church. Past lives is a tool that is utilized by Lucifer and his agents to attack Christ on 3 fronts. To give credence to paganism and its associated new age philosophies and secondly, to destroy the resurrection concept. Lastly, to channel orders directly from Lucifer to apostate churches and humanity in general to further his causes. Generally past livs can only be recounted through the use of hypnosis. Hypnosis is a dangerous in that it taps into Consciousness that is highly suceptible to frequencies that should not be tapped into. I wont provided you a lengthy discussion about this as there is plenty of research you can find on the net. Needless to say, when you are open to such forces, they can tap into a level of realities that can expose you to all sorts of deceptions.

[M. T. Cross]

To give credence to paganism and its associated new age philosophies and secondly, to destroy the resurrection concept.

I am not going to waste time arguing with the rest of your post, but I would love to know how much you actually know about "pagan" philosophies? There are hundreds of them, so to use that term with such strength implies to me that you must have studied them all in depth and can provide a stunning response.

[Textus Receptus]

I was using the word loosely, but I'll make this easy for you -- Which pagan religion does not believe in the immortal soul? Anything thing that is not Christian is Pagan. Paganism = False Religion in ANY form.

[M. T. Cross]

Quote:

I was using the word loosely, but I'll make this easy for you --

Oh thank you! I am not that smart so I appreciate your making it easy for me. You are a fine christian man indeed

Quote:

Which pagan religion does not believe in the immortal soul?

A lot of Heathens don't believe in an immortal soul, alot of Gwyddons don't really (though thats a complicated one), not sure about Hellenics as a whole, but I know some that don't........ there are others that don't either. By your definition of what is pagan, that would include atheists and most of them don't either.

Quote:

Anything thing that is not Christian is Pagan. Paganism = False Religion in ANY form.

Arrogance at its finest! The term "False" religion cracks me up. Does that mean that people really don't practice it? Or that it does not actually exist? Never quite sure what people mean by that term.

[Textus Receptus]

Quote:

I was using the word loosely, but I'll make this easy for you --

Oh thank you! I am not that smart so I appreciate your making it easy for me. You are a fine christian man indeed

Quote:

Which pagan religion does not believe in the immortal soul?

A lot of Heathens don't believe in an immortal soul, alot of Gwyddons don't really (though thats a complicated one), not sure about Hellenics as a whole, but I know some that don't........ there are others that don't either. By your definition of what is pagan, that would include atheists and most of them don't either.

Quote:

Anything thing that is not Christian is Pagan. Paganism = False Religion in ANY form.

Arrogance at its finest! The term "False" religion cracks me up. Does that mean that people really don't practice it? Or that it does not actually exist? Never quite sure what people mean by that term.

Unfortnately, you did not provide an adequate answer to my question. You stated that "lots of heathens don't believe in an immortal soul....Gwynddon don't really...not sure about Hellenics....etc is quite vague.

As for your claim that Gwyddons do not believe in an immortal soul, you have mistaken. Gwyddons are very much believers of humans being deistic, in that they believe they are immortal visvis the cosmic consciousness. Moreover, if Gwynddons are of the Druid tradition, you can rest assure that they do believe in the immortal soul.

Your jump in logic suggesting that I am suggesting that atheist are pagan is definitely a misinterpretation of my comments. Frankly, atheist are not even germane to the subject at hand.

I will stand firm and reiterate that any other religion other than the true Apostalic Christanity is false. This is verified by the prophesy found in Daniel 9:24-27 which without a doubt proves Jesus is the only and true son of God.

[M. T. Cross]

Oh do enlighten me some more on Gwyddons......... I can't wait. Since I am one, I am pretty sure you know more about it than me.

[M. T. Cross]

Unfortnately, you did not provide an adequate answer to my question. You stated that "lots of heathens don't believe in an immortal soul....Gwynddon don't really...not sure about Hellenics....etc is quite vague.

[M. T. Cross]

I would like to add, that when I say Gwyddons, I refer to the North American tradition not the Welsh one. The two belief systems have some very basic differences. As I really know just some basics about the Welsh tradition I do not presume to speak for them.

[Textus Receptus]

I love the use of the word "true" there. Again arrogance and folly. Your version of the truth could be totally different than the guy in the pew beside you in church.

Daniel does not PROVE anything. Its a story. As for its truth, my opinion is going to be different than yours, and I respect your right to believe what you want from the Bible. But if it proves anything of the sort, it only proves that Jesus is the son of Yahweh. So another son of another God

I will decline to rebuttle any of your other comments as really there is no reason to.

Yes, truth can be percieved as arrogance.

You are indeed correct, that many denominations exist which differ. However, the SDA, I will even go further, historical adventism is the true apostolic Christianty, which is without error.

As for your assertion, that the book of Daniel is not a story. In fact, when we you examine the prophecies contained in Daniel, you will find that Daniel predicted, by name the nations which will rule and be defeated in earths history. Daniel is also verified by archeological evidence.

The 70 week prophecy which you so conveniently dismiss precisely predicts the time that Yeshua would start His ministry and when He would be delievered to His enemies. Not to mention the countless prophecies which Yeshua fulfilled.

The bible is the only book which challenges the reader to find error in its prophecies and truth. I challenge you to research the book of Daniel and Revelation and find error within its words.

One thing is certain, that if you do not change your ways and beliefs, whether you like it or not, someday you will bow down on your knees and proclaim Him the Lord of Lords and the King of Kings prior to your annihilation. Annihilation will not be as a consequence of harsh a God, but that you will never be happy where He so desperately wants you to be, with Him. It will be out of mercy.

"For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God." Romans 14:12

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. Rev 1:7

Yours Truly,

A Former Athiest

[M. T. Cross]

These things are your opinions and beliefs, and I respect that.

Now, I have read Daniel, I have read Revelations. First they are both so full of symbolism that there is a million and one ways to interpret them. Have a quick look at any discussion of either, a discussion by believers. They will argue endlessly about the meanings. My take is that the problem might be that there are really no meanings to them, and thats why there are so many opinions as to what the meanings might be. Now that is my view as a non-Christian. I am in no way asking you to personally share that view, if you want to believe that is your choice and right. But the thing is that I can't see how it can be held up as factual. Daniel, well there is a lot of suspicion that it was written after the events. How much truth there is to that, I don't know. But again there is just so much symbolism that I think it makes it pretty easy to fit the "predictions" to the events that came afterwards. Revelations...... well since in all the similar symbolism there are apparently prophecies about our future, I would be hard pressed to find how one can prove it. It has not happened yet.

In the end it boils down to this. None of us KNOW what happens when we die. It might be nothing. We may go to one of the various afterlives, we may reincarnate. But it is, I think, above all other things, the one thing no-one truly has a positive answer for. Just answers based on theories and speculations.

[BobRyan]

The teachings of Christianity usually deny the possibility of reincarnation. How do you explain the fact that some people remember their past lives?

Some people talk to their dead loved ones.

Some people claim to see aliens.

Some people claim they can travel via astral projection to other parts of the world and to other worlds.

If we had to accept that anything any one ever claimed to experience must be true to life and not some form of deception or malfunction experienced by that person - we would be in a real mess.

The Bible says "it is appointed unto man once to die and then comes the judgment".

And the Bible says "The living know that they will die abut the dead know not anything".

And the Bible says "Lazarus sleeps - I go that I may wake him".

So for Christians - it is not possible to marry the Bible to re-incarnation - unless by "re-incarnation" you mean bodily resurrection of the dead. That is the only kind of "re-incarnation" that the Bible knows about.

in Christ,

Bob

[Textus Receptus]

These things are your opinions and beliefs, and I respect that.

Now, I have read Daniel, I have read Revelations. First they are both so full of symbolism that there is a million and one ways to interpret them. Have a quick look at any discussion of either, a discussion by believers. They will argue endlessly about the meanings. My take is that the problem might be that there are really no meanings to them, and thats why there are so many opinions as to what the meanings might be. Now that is my view as a non-Christian. I am in no way asking you to personally share that view, if you want to believe that is your choice and right. But the thing is that I can't see how it can be held up as factual. Daniel, well there is a lot of suspicion that it was written after the events. How much truth there is to that, I don't know. But again there is just so much symbolism that I think it makes it pretty easy to fit the "predictions" to the events that came afterwards. Revelations...... well since in all the similar symbolism there are apparently prophecies about our future, I would be hard pressed to find how one can prove it. It has not happened yet.

In the end it boils down to this. None of us KNOW what happens when we die. It might be nothing. We may go to one of the various afterlives, we may reincarnate. But it is, I think, above all other things, the one thing no-one truly has a positive answer for. Just answers based on theories and speculations.

I understand how you can come to this conclusion regarding prophecy. Yes, there are many intepretations. However there are reasons for this which would take this discussion into a very big tangent. Nevertheless, a thourough examination of Daniel, will reveal the meanings of the symbols. In fact, Daniel decifers the symbolism for you. He has revealed that they are nations, but not just ordinary nations, but the nations which will rule the world prior to Christs return. He does so by name even. Babylon, Medo-Persia-Greece, Roman. If you contrast this information, with the book of Revelation, prophecy will come alive for you. If you would like a thourough academic study with tons of sources, I recommend that you watch Dr. Walter Veith's "Total Onslaught" Series. If you do decide to watch, I pray that you do, please watch them in order as they are progressive. It was watching this series that made me believe in God. He is an extraodinary academic.

http://amazingdiscoveries.tv/c/2/Total_Onslaught/

[Ted Oplinger]

The teachings of Christianity usually deny the possibility of reincarnation. How do you explain the fact that some people remember their past lives?

What people remember as "past lives" is a highly speculative subject - just like the out-of-body experiences of those having near-death experiences.

Near-death experiences and past lives are experienced by a semi-conscious brain - which is wide open for the uninhibited input of suggestion. A lot of very unsubstantiable things occur which can seem extremely real to the one it occurs to.

For the Past life experience, it is nothing for the unseen messenger of the enemy of our souls to be present at one of these sessions, and implant a locally accurate "memory" into a semi-conscious mind half a world away. When these "memories" are investigated, of course they correlate to a historic location and person living in the past.

For the after-death experience, it is nothing for the devil to have his minions impersonate the dead who have gone asleep before, and implant a positive (or in some cases, a fiery) experience to the semi-conscious mind which wavers between death and unconscious life.

Not knowing the truth about what death really is, these people hold onto these experiences fiercely. It is "truth" to them, for they "know" they "experienced" these things.

We must remember we are not the only intelligent life here on earth, and remember as well there are evil angels assigned to each person - who know as much about the details of life about us as our heavenly guardian angels.

This is how the witch at Endor was able to pull the great deception of "calling up" the dead prophet Samuel before the fallen king Saul in 1 Samuel 28:7-19.

The spiritual works of Satan are designed to cast a person down, and fasten them to his lies. The witch at Endor left Saul with the thought he could not repent, that the Lord had become his adversary, and that what was before him was written in stone (all of which was untrue).

Likewise with these experiences which appear to "prove" reincarnation (or in the case of near-death experiences, heaven w/ loved ones, or hell) - that promote the original lie of never dying, and lead one to have hope in something other than the Promises of God for life everlasting.

Blessings,

[M. T. Cross]

This is how the witch at Endor was able to pull the great deception of "calling up" the dead prophet Samuel before the fallen king Saul in 1 Samuel 28:7-19.

15 Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” Saul answered, “I am in great distress, for the Philistines are warring against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams. Therefore I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do.”

16 And Samuel said, “Why then do you ask me, since the Lord has turned from you and become your enemy?

17 The Lord has done to you as he spoke by me, for the Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David.

18 Because you did not obey the voice of the Lord and did not carry out his fierce wrath against Amalek, therefore the Lord has done this thing to you this day.

19 Moreover, the Lord will give Israel also with you into the hand of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons shall be with me. The Lord will give the army of Israel also into the hand of the Philistines.

I have long wondered Ted, and have asked SDA elders, ministers etc this - never receiving an answer that was anything but cliche........ maybe you can help.

If indeed the ghost of Samuel was actually the devil, why would he berate Saul for not obeying God?

[phkrause]

EC, I believe Doug Batchelor has a sermon on this passage. If I find it I will post it. I do remember he had an evangelistic meeting/campaign and spoke to that issue. Again if I can find it I'll post it.

[Ted Oplinger]

Originally Posted By: Ted Oplinger

This is how the witch at Endor was able to pull the great deception of "calling up" the dead prophet Samuel before the fallen king Saul in 1 Samuel 28:7-19.

15 Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” Saul answered, “I am in great distress, for the Philistines are warring against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams. Therefore I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do.”

16 And Samuel said, “Why then do you ask me, since the Lord has turned from you and become your enemy?

17 The Lord has done to you as he spoke by me, for the Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David.

18 Because you did not obey the voice of the Lord and did not carry out his fierce wrath against Amalek, therefore the Lord has done this thing to you this day.

19 Moreover, the Lord will give Israel also with you into the hand of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons shall be with me. The Lord will give the army of Israel also into the hand of the Philistines.

I have long wondered Ted, and have asked SDA elders, ministers etc this - never receiving an answer that was anything but cliche........ maybe you can help.

If indeed the ghost of Samuel was actually the devil, why would he berate Saul for not obeying God?

Actually, MT, that is a very good question - why would the devil do such a thing? I hope this answer is not more cliche for you...

The answer is intuitive, given the devil's work. Truth, spoken in love leads to repentance. Truth, spoken with hate, leads to despair, then death.

Look at Saul's reaction - Saul is left with no hope whatsoever. He does not even feel he can come to God for repentance - which is never true.

Satan left Saul with a completely broken spirit going into the fight of his life. He would not even eat or drink to gain strength for his coming battle - he became quite fatalistic. Such is never the work of God.

When God rebukes for sin, there is always a given route for repentance. God always gives notice that though He must punish now, He does not cast off forever - once the work of the consequences is over, God restores the penitent with favor. God desires the consequences to separate the sinner from the sin, that He may destroy the sin and not the sinner.

Satan, though, is our Accuser - he aims to condemn, and leave no hope whatsoever. He uses the truth to do this when it is in his advantage to do so - but it is never with the idea of bringing repentance. Satan desires to leave a person with no hope of ever being right with God ever again - that they have gone way too far. To support this, Satan can - and does - throw a very accurate record of one's sins into their face to convince them of this. Satan will go as far as accurately detailing God's actions with the person - conveniently burying or leaving out, though, the escape door God has put in place for the sinner to use. Satan works to keep the sinner bound to sin - and ultimately be destroyed with sin, as Satan knows one day he must be.

This last paragraph accurately describes what happened with Saul in that passage. Unfortunately, it appears Saul bought the argument.

How many people today receive condemnation for sinning by "church members" - and come away thinking there's no coming back to God? That's not God at work there...

Hope this helps a bit.

Blessings,

[phkrause]

Here's 1 video by DB

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udBtbl_CynI

[M. T. Cross]

Actually, MT, that is a very good question - why would the devil do such a thing? I hope this answer is not more cliche for you...

The answer is intuitive, given the devil's work. Truth, spoken in love leads to repentance. Truth, spoken with hate, leads to despair, then death.

Look at Saul's reaction - Saul is left with no hope whatsoever. He does not even feel he can come to God for repentance - which is never true.

Satan left Saul with a completely broken spirit going into the fight of his life. He would not even eat or drink to gain strength for his coming battle - he became quite fatalistic. Such is never the work of God.

When God rebukes for sin, there is always a given route for repentance. God always gives notice that though He must punish now, He does not cast off forever - once the work of the consequences is over, God restores the penitent with favor. God desires the consequences to separate the sinner from the sin, that He may destroy the sin and not the sinner.

Satan, though, is our Accuser - he aims to condemn, and leave no hope whatsoever. He uses the truth to do this when it is in his advantage to do so - but it is never with the idea of bringing repentance. Satan desires to leave a person with no hope of ever being right with God ever again - that they have gone way too far. To support this, Satan can - and does - throw a very accurate record of one's sins into their face to convince them of this. Satan will go as far as accurately detailing God's actions with the person - conveniently burying or leaving out, though, the escape door God has put in place for the sinner to use. Satan works to keep the sinner bound to sin - and ultimately be destroyed with sin, as Satan knows one day he must be.

This last paragraph accurately describes what happened with Saul in that passage. Unfortunately, it appears Saul bought the argument.

How many people today receive condemnation for sinning by "church members" - and come away thinking there's no coming back to God? That's not God at work there...

Hope this helps a bit.

Blessings,

Well Ted, I will give you that its not totally the same cliche that I have heard before. But in the end it boils down to the Devil trying to trick someone. Fair enough, it certainly is one way to look at it.

PK I am going to address the sermon you linked here as well.

See in both the sermon, and in Teds response here, there is given no biblical evidence that in this certain story was the spirit actually the devil.

Samuel seems quite peeved that he was woken. That fits in quite well with other bible verses that say the dead sleep. He instructs Saul to wise up and do what God tells him to do. Now Ted you say that a rebuke from God will not lead to despair. I would disagree, but that is not even the point. The question is not if the rebuke was from the devil or God, its if it was from the devil or Samuel. As you pointed out, rebukes from people can lead to despair. The spirit of Samuel was the spirit of a person. However with some encouragement, Saul seemed to get over that despair, ate and went forth.

Now Doug Batchlor says he can prove with the Bible that it was not the ghost of Samuel. I waited for 29 minutes for him to do so. He never really addressed it. He threw out some Bible verses that say there is no life after death. Fair enough in of themselves. So, since it has been a while since I read the Bible I did a search. Sure enough I found website after website of verses that support life after death.

On this whole subject I am not actually arguing one way or the other. I never have, nor do I now know what I truly believe on the subject. But its an interesting topic.

I think whatever your beliefs, and due to the lack of fact either way, its important to focus on the one thing we do know about. We are alive right now, and we should make sure we live this life to its fullest, with as much kindness and love as we can.

[phkrause]

I'm in agreement with you, but as has been taught to me and most if not all SDAs, Christians, Jews, etc., we need to take the whole context into play. In this case the Bible speaks throughout that when you die you know nothing, period. And that we should all stay away from mediums, sorcerers, etc. So even though this story and the one in the NT are a little weird in the sense that they go against what the Bible teaches about these kind of situations, we need to say to ourselves, is it really what it looks like or can I say to myself, well it goes against everything I've ever heard about the subject. Just something to think about. I'm gonna look up some other reference's and see what I find.

[phkrause]

EC here's what EGW has to say about this passage of Scripture:

Chapter 66—The Death of Saul

Again war was declared between Israel and the Philistines. “The Philistines gathered themselves together, and came and pitched in Shunem,” on the northern edge of the plain of Jezreel; while Saul and his forces encamped but a few miles distant, at the foot of Mount Gilboa, on the southern border of the plain. It was on this plain that Gideon, with three hundred men, had put to flight the hosts of Midian. But the spirit that inspired Israel’s deliverer was widely different from that which now stirred the heart of the king. Gideon went forth strong in faith in the mighty God of Jacob; but Saul felt himself to be alone and defenseless, because God had forsaken him. As he looked abroad upon the Philistine host, “he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled.” {PP 675.1}

Saul had learned that David and his force were with the Philistines, and he expected that the son of Jesse would take this opportunity to revenge the wrongs he had suffered. The king was in sore distress. It was his own unreasoning passion, spurring him on to destroy the chosen of God, that had involved the nation in so great peril. While he had been engrossed in pursuing David he had neglected the defense of his kingdom. The Philistines, taking advantage of its unguarded condition, had penetrated into the very heart of the country. Thus while Satan had been urging Saul to employ every energy in hunting David, that he might destroy him, the same malignant spirit had inspired the Philistines to seize their opportunity to work Saul’s ruin and overthrow the people of God. How often is the same policy still employed by the archenemy! He moves upon some unconsecrated heart to kindle envy and strife in the church, and then, taking advantage of the divided condition of God’s people, he stirs up his agents to work their ruin. {PP 675.2}

On the morrow Saul must engage the Philistines in battle. The shadows of impending doom gathered dark about him; he longed for help and guidance. But it was in vain that he sought counsel from God. “The Lord answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.” The Lord never turned away a soul that came to Him in sincerity and humility. Why did he turn Saul away unanswered? The king had by his own act forfeited the benefits of all the methods of inquiring of God. He had rejected the counsel of Samuel the prophet; he had exiled David, the chosen of God; he had slain the priests of the Lord. Could he expect to be answered by God when he had cut off the channels of communication that Heaven had ordained? He had sinned away the Spirit of grace, and could he be answered by dreams and revelations from the Lord? Saul did not turn to God with humility and repentance. It was not pardon for sin and reconciliation with God, that he sought, but deliverance from his foes. By his own stubbornness and rebellion he had cut himself off from God. There could be no return but by the way of penitence and contrition; but the proud monarch, in his anguish and despair, determined to seek help from another source. {PP 675.3}

“Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and inquire of her.” Saul had a full knowledge of the character of necromancy. It had been expressly forbidden by the Lord, and the sentence of death was pronounced against all who practiced its unholy arts. During the life of Samuel, Saul had commanded that all wizards and those that had familiar spirits should be put to death; but now, in the rashness of desperation, he had recourse to that oracle which he had condemned as an abomination. {PP 676.1}

It was told the king that a woman who had a familiar spirit was living in concealment at Endor. This woman had entered into covenant with Satan to yield herself to his control, to fulfill his purposes; and in return, the prince of evil wrought wonders for her and revealed secret things to her. {PP 676.2}

Disguising himself, Saul went forth by night with but two attendants, to seek the retreat of the sorceress. Oh, pitiable sight! the king of Israel led captive by Satan at his will! What path so dark for human feet to tread as that chosen by one who has persisted in having his own way, resisting the holy influences of the Spirit of God! What bondage so terrible as that of him who is given over to the control of the worst of tyrants—himself! Trust in God and obedience to His will were the only conditions upon which Saul could be king of Israel. Had he complied with these conditions throughout his reign, his kingdom would have been secure; God would have been his guide, the Omnipotent his shield. God had borne long with Saul; and although his rebellion and obstinacy had well-nigh silenced the divine voice in the soul, there was still opportunity for repentance. But when in his peril he turned from God to obtain light from a confederate of Satan, he had cut the last tie that bound him to his Maker; he had placed himself fully under the control of that demoniac power which for years had been exercised upon him, and which had brought him to the verge of destruction. {PP 676.3}

Under the cover of darkness Saul and his attendants made their way across the plain, and, safely passing the Philistine host, they crossed the mountain ridge, to the lonely home of the sorceress of Endor. Here the woman with a familiar spirit had hidden herself away that she might secretly continue her profane incantations. Disguised as he was, Saul’s lofty stature and kingly port declared that he was no common soldier. The woman suspected that her visitor was Saul, and his rich gifts strengthened her suspicions. To his request, “I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee,” the woman answered, “Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?” Then “Saul sware to her by the Lord, saying, As the Lord liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.” And when she said, “Whom shall I bring up unto thee?” he answered, “Samuel.” {PP 679.1}

After practicing her incantations, she said, “I saw gods ascending out of the earth.... An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.” {PP 679.2}

It was not God’s holy prophet that came forth at the spell of a sorcerer’s incantation. Samuel was not present in that haunt of evil spirits. That supernatural appearance was produced solely by the power of Satan. He could as easily assume the form of Samuel as he could assume that of an angel of light, when he tempted Christ in the wilderness. {PP 679.3}

The woman’s first words under the spell of her incantation had been addressed to the king, “Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.” Thus the first act of the evil spirit which personated the prophet was to communicate secretly with this wicked woman, to warn her of the deception that had been practiced upon her. The message to Saul from the pretended prophet was, “Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.” {PP 680.1}

When Samuel was living, Saul had despised his counsel and had resented his reproofs. But now, in the hour of his distress and calamity, he felt that the prophet’s guidance was his only hope, and in order to communicate with Heaven’s ambassador he vainly had recourse to the messenger of hell! Saul had placed himself fully in the power of Satan; and now he whose only delight is in causing misery and destruction, made the most of his advantage, to work the ruin of the unhappy king. In answer to Saul’s agonized entreaty came the terrible message, professedly from the lips of Samuel: {PP 680.2}

“Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the Lord is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy? And the Lord hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the Lord hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbor, even to David: because thou obeyedst not the voice of the Lord, nor executedst His fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the Lord done this thing unto thee this day. Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines.” {PP 680.3}

All through his course of rebellion Saul had been flattered and deceived by Satan. It is the tempter’s work to belittle sin, to make the path of transgression easy and inviting, to blind the mind to the warnings and threatenings of the Lord. Satan, by his bewitching power, had led Saul to justify himself in defiance of Samuel’s reproofs and warning. But now, in his extremity, he turned upon him, presenting the enormity of his sin and the hopelessness of pardon, that he might goad him to desperation. Nothing could have been better chosen to destroy his courage and confuse his judgment, or to drive him to despair and self-destruction. {PP 680.4}

Saul was faint with weariness and fasting; he was terrified and conscience-stricken. As the fearful prediction fell upon his ear, his form swayed like an oak before the tempest, and he fell prostrate to the earth. {PP 681.1}

The sorceress was filled with alarm. The king of Israel lay before her like one dead. Should he perish in her retreat, what would be the consequences to herself? She besought him to arise and partake of food, urging that since she had imperiled her life in granting his desire, he should yield to her request for the preservation of his own. His servants joining their entreaties, Saul yielded at last, and the woman set before him the fatted calf and unleavened bread hastily prepared. What a scene!—In the wild cave of the sorceress, which but a little before had echoed with the words of doom—in the presence of Satan’s messenger—he who had been anointed of God as king over Israel sat down to eat, in preparation for the day’s deadly strife. {PP 681.2}

Before the break of day he returned with his attendants to the camp of Israel to make ready for the conflict. By consulting that spirit of darkness Saul had destroyed himself. Oppressed by the horror of despair, it would be impossible for him to inspire his army with courage. Separated from the Source of strength, he could not lead the minds of Israel to look to God as their helper. Thus the prediction of evil would work its own accomplishment. {PP 681.3}

On the plain of Shunem and the slopes of Mount Gilboa the armies of Israel and the hosts of the Philistines closed in mortal combat. Though the fearful scene in the cave of Endor had driven all hope from his heart, Saul fought with desperate valor for his throne and his kingdom. But it was in vain. “The men of Israel fled from before the Philistines, and fell down slain in Mount Gilboa.” Three brave sons of the king died at his side. The archers pressed upon Saul. He had seen his soldiers falling around him and his princely sons cut down by the sword. Himself wounded, he could neither fight nor fly. Escape was impossible, and determined not to be taken alive by the Philistines, he bade his armor-bearer, “Draw thy sword, and thrust me through therewith.” When the man refused to lift his hand against the Lord’s anointed, Saul took his own life by falling upon his sword. {PP 681.4}

Thus the first king of Israel perished, with the guilt of self-murder upon his soul. His life had been a failure, and he went down in dishonor and despair, because he had set up his own perverse will against the will of God. {PP 682.1}

The tidings of defeat spread far and wide, carrying terror to all Israel. The people fled from the cities, and the Philistines took undisturbed possession. Saul’s reign, independent of God, had well-nigh proved the ruin of his people. {PP 682.2}

On the day following the engagement, the Philistines, searching the battlefield to rob the slain, discovered the bodies of Saul and his three sons. To complete their triumph, they cut off the head of Saul and stripped him of his armor; then the head and the armor, reeking with blood, were sent to the country of the Philistines as a trophy of victory, “to publish it in the house of their idols, and among the people.” The armor was finally put in “the house of Ashtaroth,” while the head was fastened in the temple of Dagon. Thus the glory of the victory was ascribed to the power of these false gods, and the name of Jehovah was dishonored. {PP 682.3}

The dead bodies of Saul and his sons were dragged to Beth-shan, a city not far from Gilboa, and near the river Jordan. Here they were hung up in chains, to be devoured by birds of prey. But the brave men of Jabesh-gilead, remembering Saul’s deliverance of their city in his earlier and happier years, now manifested their gratitude by rescuing the bodies of the king and princes, and giving them honorable burial. Crossing the Jordan by night, they “took the body of Saul and the bodies of his sons from the wall of Beth-shan, and came to Jabesh, and burnt them there, and they took their bones, and buried them under a tree at Jabesh, and fasted seven days.” Thus the noble deed performed forty years before, secured for Saul and his sons burial by tender and pitying hands in that dark hour of defeat and dishonor. {PP 682.4}

Wasn't sure if you still had a copy of Patriarch's and Prophets, I do recall you mentioning somewhere that you've read a lot of her writings. Anyway I thought I'd post what she had to say about it. Also if you have or can get a holed of a copy of the SDABC book 2, read the section on 1 Sam 28:15-19, on page 588. It also has some interesting comments about this passage.

[M. T. Cross]

Well I guess in a round about way that is an explanation as to why Satan would scold Saul for disobeying his God PK. I have a really hard time reading EGW, so maybe I missed something. But in the end it seems to really be the same explanation, which is a simple "it was the Devil", with not even a thought towards it being something else.

I can't explain it either, because I don't really believe in re-incarnation, that we go to heaven or hell or any other afterlife as soon as we die, nor do I believe that we just cease to exist. (confused yet? LOL)

[phkrause]

I can't explain it either, because I don't really believe in re-incarnation,

Well neither do I.

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

that we go to heaven or hell or any other afterlife as soon as we die,

Neither do I, but we will go to the grave when we die and be there till Christ returns or we will be raised at the end of 1000 years after Jesus comes and brings those that believe in him to be in heaven.

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

nor do I believe that we just cease to exist. (confused yet? LOL)

If we believe in a Creator and believe the Bible, than we do know that some will cease to exist and others will go on to live for eternity with Jesus.