Football and Adventism

[Gibs]

When we compete we are overcome by the spirit of beating out the other. If we must compete let it be to overcome the Devil, not to dabble in his allurements of the world.

In such fierce competition the mind and heart and spirit is taken away from God our Saviour just as Satan would have it and then we go about to defend with all our heart and soul the game that drew us away from Him.

There is much activity one can get into for proper exercise and instead of pulling us away from Him bring us in closer. Our walk must ever become closer and closer with Him who is our ALL IN ALL!

Our heart song must ever be, "Just a Closer Walk With Thee" We cannot walk alone without Him and not fall to Satan, as we are far too weak.

10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gordon1]

Can't quite picture Jesus at middle linebacker.

[BobRyan]

Bob,

You claim:

Quote:

the Bible is my test of all doctrine.

Then why won't you quote from the universally accepted prophets of scripture rather than one proclaimed by a single denomination

[Woody]

I've not read all of the responses - but had to chime in regarding Ellen White's personal biases against sports. It's not just football folks. Don't forget cricket and tennis. lol

" A view of things was presented before me in which the students were playing games of tennis and cricket. Then I was given instruction regarding the character of these amusements. They were presented to me as a species of idolatry, like the idols of the nations. " CT 350

[BobRyan]

The idea that football is condemned just because it is a sport and Ellen White was instructed to condemn all sports - is not entirely accurate and is not supported by her statements about sports.

Rather it appears that she singles out only a few sports such as boxing and football to flatly condemn as an invention of the devil.

But some other sports are actually affirmed if done with balance and moderation.

Quote:

Counsel to Reserved, Dictatorial Parents—There is danger of both parents and teachers commanding and dictating too much, while they fail to come sufficiently into social relation with their children or scholars. They often hold themselves too much reserved and exercise their authority in a cold, unsympathizing manner which cannot win the hearts of their children and pupils. If they would gather the children close to them and show that they love them, and would manifest an interest in all their efforts and even in their sports, sometimes even being a child among children, they would make the children very happy and would gain their love and win their confidence. And the children would sooner respect and love the authority of their parents and teachers.13 {AH 192.4}

Both parents and teachers are in danger of commanding and dictating too much, while they fail to come sufficiently into social relation with their children or their scholars. They maintain too great a reserve, and exercise their authority in a cold, unsympathizing manner, which tends to repel instead of winning confidence and affection. If they would oftener gather the children about them, and manifest an interest in their work, and even in their sports, they would gain the love and confidence of the little ones, and the lesson of respect and obedience would be far more readily learned; for love is the best teacher. A similar interest manifested for the youth will secure like results. The young heart is quick to respond to the touch of sympathy. {FE 58.1}

Give some of your leisure hours to your children; associate with them in their work and in their sports, and win their confidence. Cultivate their friendship.11 {AH 192.2}

Let parents devote the evenings to their families. Lay off care and perplexity with the labors of the day.12 {AH 192.3}

Gymnasium exercises may in some instances be an advantage. They were brought in to supply the want of useful physical training, and have become popular with educational institutions; but they are not without drawbacks. Unless carefully regulated, they are productive of more harm than good. {CE 211.2}

Amusement that serves as exercise and recreation is not to be discarded; nevertheless, it must be kept strictly within bounds, else it leads to love of amusement for its own sake, and nourishes the desire for selfish gratification.... {2MR 218.3}

Which makes the "boxing and football" statements that much more pronounced by contrast.

in Christ,

Bob

[CoAspen]

JM,

I think what you are well aware of, is that many peoples become obsessed with 'rooting' out any 'evil' they believe to exist and pound on it to others. This topic is only one of many, many through the years of this forum. When all else fails, get out you 'index' of EGW writings to support what ever it is. I often wonder if we as SDA's often disply, what I call, 'spiritual lazines', that is to look for the easiest way out of studing our Bibles and listening for the vice of God through the Holy Spirit.

It is often times easier to look for what is wrong vs what is right.....simply look at topic views and replies!

Oh well, such is life!!!

[BobRyan]

In this case - the evil that I am accused of doing - consists of simply asking for a positive reference/quote etc from Ellen White on the subject of football - since I have recently found a number of negative ones for football.

Oh well - such is life!

in Christ,

Bob

[Q.E.D.]

I've not read all of the responses - but had to chime in regarding Ellen White's "personal biases" against sports. (Quotational emphasis supplied by Q.E.D.)

" A view of things was presented before me in which the students were playing games of tennis and cricket. Then I was given instruction regarding the character of these amusements. They were presented to me as a species of idolatry, like the idols of the nations. " CT 350

Are you saying that the spiritual councils of Ellen White concerning sports are nothing more than mere "personal biases"?

That's a new one. . .

Q.E.D.

[Gail]

JM,

I think what you are well aware of, is that many peoples become obsessed with 'rooting' out any 'evil' they believe to exist and pound on it to others. This topic is only one of many, many through the years of this forum. When all else fails, get out you 'index' of EGW writings to support what ever it is. I often wonder if we as SDA's often disply, what I call, 'spiritual lazines', that is to look for the easiest way out of studing our Bibles and listening for the vice of God through the Holy Spirit.

It is often times easier to look for what is wrong vs what is right.....simply look at topic views and replies!

Another thing is, what might be an obsession and sin for me (besides the 10C) might not be for someone else.

For example, I am not a football fan. I could sit with a group around a TV set in order to be sociable, and perhaps enjoy watching the program, but it is not going to be a big deal to me. But it may be an addiction to the person sitting next to me.

It's the mote/beam principle.

[phkrause]

Great post Gail. To me an addiction to Football or any other sport, would be if I can't attend church that day because of a game.

[JoeMo]

Q.E.D.,

I can't answer for Woody; but I would opine that they MAY be her personal biases. She wouldn't be the first NT "prophet" to overstate her revelation or to mistake her imagination for the voice of God. If she were "infallible", the SoP would carry the same authority as scripture (maybe it does for some folks). To me, she is a very inspired writer; but if I can't verify what she says with a specific and literal reference to scripture, what she says is inpirational at best. Nothing in the 28 Fundamentals requires me to swallow everything she ever penned as doctrinal in order to be a card-carrying SDA.

[JoeMo]

CoAspen and Gail,

AMEN to both of your previous posts. I love the balance and common sense you portray.

[JoeMo]

Good point, pk!

As much of a tantrum as I am throwing here, I limit myself to one Sunday game and one weekday game ... and never EVER on Sabbath!

[Woody]

Excellent comments - most of you. lol

[BobRyan]

Q.E.D.,

I can't answer for Woody; but I would opine that they MAY be her personal biases. She wouldn't be the first NT "prophet" to overstate her revelation or to mistake her imagination for the voice of God.

There in that post then is the "alternative" to finding a quote in favor of football as per the OP.

Let each one choose -- all have free will.

Still - I think there are one or two left that accept Ellen White as what the Bible calls a prophet - even when it is inconvenient.

in Christ,

Bob

[JoeMo]

Quote:

Still - I think there are one or two left that accept Ellen White as what the Bible calls a prophet - even when it is inconvenient.

So Bob,

You are implying that everything that EGW ever penned is as accurate as anything Isaiah or Ezechiel (and possibly Jesus) ever said; and therefore carries the same authority as the Bible? If you don't believe that; then do you concede that she could have possibly penned something that was wro...wro... uhmmm - in error or misinterpreted?

Please respond so we know where you stand.

[BobRyan]

I am not claiming your "Ellen White was wrong" solution for the sport of football is a solution people are not allowed to select under a free will model.

We saw that on the topic of evolution vs creation and it is not too surprising that someone might want to pursue that same idea here.

I am also not using this thread to defend the Bible doctrine on prophesy and how it works. Though I am happy to have such a thread started and participate in it if you are interested.

This thread was primarily to find out if anyone had something other than "of the devil" references specific to football from Ellen White. I myself was a bit surprised to find that she specifically addressed that sport by name.

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

It's the mote/beam principle.

Not at all....What does the law say? Under law anything outside agape is sin, period. End of story. Everything in this world is based on Lucifer's love of self. Capitalism, the market, sports, education, etc....All are based on self-seeking and not God's agape love.

[JoeMo]

Bob,

Quote:

the sport of football is a solution people are not allowed to select under a free will model.

Not allowed to select under a free will model? Either I'm missing something or that statement is somewhat of an oxymoron.

As for the rest of your response - nice dodge! As far as your recommendation to start a seperate thread to defend the Bible doctrine on prophesy and how it works, no thanks. I concede that you are much better educated and more eloquent than I would be in the areas of theology and hermaneutics (I can't even spell hermaneutics); so I would be like a one-legged man in a butt-kicking contest. It still would not change either of our minds.

I'm probably done with this thread...

[Gail]

Q.E.D.,

If she were "infallible", the SoP would carry the same authority as scripture (maybe it does for some folks).

It would? Even the Biblical authors were not infallible.

[skyblue888]

JoeMoe, you have stated in another thread that 1844 was a mistake. Right? If 1844 was a mistake, Ellen White was a bigger mistake. Is that what it means to be a charismatic adventist? Just asking.

sky :)

[Guest]

Good question sky.

[skyblue888]

[BobRyan]

I am not claiming your "Ellen White was wrong" solution for the sport of football is a solution people are not allowed to select under a free will model.

We saw that on the topic of evolution vs creation and it is not too surprising that someone might want to pursue that same idea here.

I am also not using this thread to defend the Bible doctrine on prophesy and how it works. Though I am happy to have such a thread started and participate in it if you are interested.

This thread was primarily to find out if anyone had something other than "of the devil" references specific to football from Ellen White. I myself was a bit surprised to find that she specifically addressed that sport by name.

[BobRyan]

sky - poke in head noted?