Adventism

[JoeMo]

I'm so glad you're here, MT - Christian or not. You bring common sense, an open mind, and a valid "bottom line" to a lot of discussion here. Plus, you almost always do so in a thoughtful, non-judgemental manner. I think I have learned a lot about common sense spirituality from you; and I consider you a brother.

You may not be a Christian, and you tolerate a lot of negative feedback here without returning it in kind. I think all of us Christians could learn from your example on this point.

[Tallmark]

As one who came in from an evangelical series as an adult, here's my take: Those who were raised in the church and are still in, have left for awhile and came back, or they had something traumatic happen in their lives (divorce, near death situation, etc.) and clung close to Jesus. Very, very few have stayed in the whole time without trauma.

[John317]

I read through the entire discussion.

Seems like almost everyone is dissatisfied with the SDA church.

So my question for everyone is, what do you want the SDA church to be like? What would you like to see happen in the church to make it the kind of church you'd love to attend and bring friends to?

Are you happy with the doctrines? Or do they even matter? Would you like to see the doctrines changed?

Another question I'd like to ask each person in the discussion, is: Are you giving Bible studies to anyone at the present time? Have you ever given Bible studies to people in order to present the church's teaching?

[Stan]

I can say this, I am so thankful for the Adventist Church. AM thankful to a living Saviour for being patient with me and let me run to the 3 Angeles messages. I was blessing by every fellowship I have had in various churches.

Spoon fed food ends up being bitter to a lot. Seeking, finding, rejoicing... is much more filling.

[Woody]

Quote:

So there is a view that I think will drive away many people that grow up in the church. I do understand that it is no longer as across the board as it was when I was a kid, but its still there. I see it quite often here at C/A.

Yes. I agree that you can find what you are looking for.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Seeking, finding, rejoicing... is much more filling.

The few descriptions from the Scriptures that seem to be indicative of those not eventually achieving the right to the tree of life other than the wicked, so far as I can see are those who do not know Jesus on a personal level. Making friends is a commitment to a Friend first, then to friends to Whom you wish to share His friendship.

This would be true no matter which group of believers with whom one chooses to worship.

"He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life."1 John 5:12 NKJV

God blesses!

[Tom Wetmore]

As one who came in from an evangelical series as an adult, here's my take: Those who were raised in the church and are still in, have left for awhile and came back, or they had something traumatic happen in their lives (divorce, near death situation, etc.) and clung close to Jesus. Very, very few have stayed in the whole time without trauma.

There are many that don't fit that profile. I for one was raised in the church, have not left it. I think that you will find that of those that leave there is a mix of those raised in the church and those that come in as adults and don't stay. We are not all cut from the same cloth.

Generalizations don't fit since any religious experience should come with a warning label - "Results will vary."

[Guest]

I would have to agree with that Tom.

[Neil D]

There are many that don't fit that profile. I for one was raised in the church, have not left it. I think that you will find that of those that leave there is a mix of those raised in the church and those that come in as adults and don't stay. We are not all cut from the same cloth.

Generalizations don't fit since any religious experience should come with a warning label - "Results will vary."

I might disagree with you, Tom....but I won't disagree very hard...

I tend to agree that there IS a common thread for those who leave....That common thread was that there was not the 'tie that binds"....the relationship....

A true relationship, whether it be with God or with man [remember, the cross has horizontal as well as vertical members] involves the WHOLE person, both the mental, the spiritual and the emotional...

Let me put it another way...God gave to us the right to become children of Love. [see first chapter of John] Every family has some trait that is passed down from generation to generation, whether it be a lisp during speaking, a soft voice in all situations, becoming emotional during stressful relationships, talking with your hands during certain situations, whatever that trait is, it is passed on to the next generation...Our Father has chosen the trait of Love to be passed on to His children. We should be experts at loving people...The fact that we are not, shows that we have missed something....and it's something about how to love other people and loving God...

So, if we were to figure out how to love, all those people who left, would be back...

[cardw]

I am in no danger of returning to Adventism.

I left Adventist and Christian belief systems because they are complete failure in their ability to determine what is true.

My life is far more interesting and free. I don't have to find a Bible quote or Ellen White quote to guide my every decision. I don't have to worry if I'm doing enough to win people to Christ or if I'm going to be saved or if I've committed the unpardonable sin or if the world is going to organize itself to try and kill me for keeping the Sabbath or if I will have to go through a time of trouble even more horrible than I can imagine or determine if jewelry is OK to wear or if a certain kind of music is going to hurt my salvation or a myriad of paranoid and obsessive detail that creates all kinds of imaginary fears that I'm required to carry around.

One only has to read a small fraction of the threads on club Adventist to realize all of the nonsensical paranoid conversation around non-issues consumes the religious believers of the world.

No thank you. I happily refrain from returning and participating in such a hellish existence no matter how much everybody has to say it's all wonderful.

[hch]

I am in no danger of returning to Adventism.

I left Adventist and Christian belief systems because they are complete failure in their ability to determine what is true.

[Neil D]

My life is far more interesting and free. I don't have to find a Bible quote or Ellen White quote to guide my every decision. I don't have to worry if I'm doing enough to win people to Christ or if I'm going to be saved or if I've committed the unpardonable sin or if the world is going to organize itself to try and kill me for keeping the Sabbath or if I will have to go through a time of trouble even more horrible than I can imagine or determine if jewelry is OK to wear or if a certain kind of music is going to hurt my salvation or a myriad of paranoid and obsessive detail that creates all kinds of imaginary fears that I'm required to carry around.

One only has to read a small fraction of the threads on club Adventist to realize all of the nonsensical paranoid conversation around non-issues consumes the religious believers of the world.

No thank you. I happily refrain from returning and participating in such a hellish existence no matter how much everybody has to say it's all wonderful.

If I believed what you wrote up there was about Advent-ism or Christianity, I too would run away and never come back...But this is neither Adventism nor Christianity....never has been...I know that other people write like that is....but they have never understood that it's about a Person, not rules,.... about trust, not fear....

Why do people focus on these things? because it's something that is tangible and they have not grown up to deal with intangible principles..

Just my opinion......

[M. T. Cross]

Quote:

So there is a view that I think will drive away many people that grow up in the church. I do understand that it is no longer as across the board as it was when I was a kid, but its still there. I see it quite often here at C/A.

Yes. I agree that you can find what you are looking for.

Woody the first time around I was like 7 or 8. The only thing I was looking for was love.

This time around I will agree - I have come in as a skeptic and a cynic. But that said I came here with an open mind and an open heart. Much to my surprise I found some very cool people. But I also have seen that old evil that drove me away in the first place. I don't think I was looking for it, quite the opposite - I came here with the deepest hope that things had changed.

[cardw]

My life seemed to be more interesting and free too until I encountered a temptation that almost killed me. When I was powerless to change my behavior, I gave God an ultimatum. "Fix it in 2 weeks or I will turn my back on you completely and forever." He did not take 2 weeks to bring me to my senses. And He showed me my folly in such a loving way that I have never forgotten it.

[cardw]

If I believed what you wrote up there was about Advent-ism or Christianity, I too would run away and never come back...But this is neither Adventism nor Christianity....never has been...I know that other people write like that is....but they have never understood that it's about a Person, not rules,.... about trust, not fear....

Why do people focus on these things? because it's something that is tangible and they have not grown up to deal with intangible principles..

Just my opinion......

You may see it as being about a person, but you are certainly not in the majority. Look at the largest thread here on ClubAdventist. It is the debate over works versus faith. It's largely nonsense.

And the inane debates over trivia are all over the place.

Why would I want to waste my time being with a culture that finds these the most important conversation to have?

You are certainly free to choose who and where you want to spend your time, but, to me, it's a practice of futility to try and change the culture. I have such great friends and joy in my life without all the mental gymnastics required to navigate Adventist culture.

I was deep into the culture and thought it was all so important. It's all ego and fear. It doesn't matter if it's liberal or conservative. There's this addictive property when you think you are a member of a privileged group. Particularly when you are convinced it's a special group set apart by god. That's all ego.

It's either a competition to be the most godly or the most right. It's all such a waste of time and energy.

[John317]

... It's largely nonsense.

And the inane debates over trivia are all over the place.

Why would I want to waste my time being with a culture that finds these the most important conversation to have?

You are certainly free to choose who and where you want to spend your time, but, to me, it's a practice of futility to try and change the culture. I have such great friends and joy in my life without all the mental gymnastics required to navigate Adventist culture.

It's all ego and fear.... That's all ego.

It's either a competition to be the most godly or the most right. It's all such a waste of time and energy.

Talk about ego and the necessity of being right!!

Everything here is apparently nonsense and a waste of time, silliness, trivia, futility, mental gymnastics, ego and fear--- those are all your favorite words to describe "Adventist culture." Same ol', same ol'.

So, what keeps you here?

I'm just asking the obvious question because your posts leave no doubt that you actually like Adventists. You say you have such great friends and joy in your life--- yet you're spending a lot of time on this forum talking to Adventists. What then is it about SDAs or their beliefs that apparently attract you?

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: Tallmark

As one who came in from an evangelical series as an adult, here's my take: Those who were raised in the church and are still in, have left for awhile and came back, or they had something traumatic happen in their lives (divorce, near death situation, etc.) and clung close to Jesus. Very, very few have stayed in the whole time without trauma.

There are many that don't fit that profile. I for one was raised in the church, have not left it. I think that you will find that of those that leave there is a mix of those raised in the church and those that come in as adults and don't stay. We are not all cut from the same cloth.

Generalizations don't fit since any religious experience should come with a warning label - "Results will vary."

Great points Tom. I also never left, even at an early age, when I was doing some crazy things. But I knew that God was watching over me, otherwise I probably would not be. My personal opinion is that FAITH has more to do with staying than leaving. I am in agreement with a few of the things that cardw has mentioned in his posts, and from my point of view they all involve Faith. That to me is the common demonanator(sp) that separates us from God. Again this is my personal view and opinion, not trying to tell others what to think or do.

[Naomi]

.

Woody the first time around I was like 7 or 8. The only thing I was looking for was love.

This time around I will agree - I have come in as a skeptic and a cynic. But that said I came here with an open mind and an open heart. Much to my surprise I found some very cool people. But I also have seen that old evil that drove me away in the first place. I don't think I was looking for it, quite the opposite - I came here with the deepest hope that things had changed.

I am going to jump in here EC. Some things have changed, some have not. It is not about the members, it's about faith and God. This is not a cross-section of who you met in church; at least in my experience. Most of the people that I have met in our churches are sinners just like myself ... and their definition of sin is not always the same, if you get my drift. Yes, there is conflict sometimes, but pick your support group and who really cares what the rest think ... it is about faith, trust and God.

Everyone's walk is not the same, everyone's history is not the same and just as in the world we live we will not ever agree on many things. The old devil will work hard to drive away even the most dedicated....that's his job!! He is powerful but with God's help he can be defeated in our personal life ... and in the end he will be destroyed. He knows how it will all end. He is not a loner, He wants to take as many with him as possible.

If I am out-of-line, please forgive me, early morning scatter-shooting.

[phkrause]

I am going to jump in here EC. Some things have changed, some have not. It is not about the members, it's about faith and God. This is not a cross-section of who you met in church; at least in my experience. Most of the people that I have met in our churches are sinners just like myself ... and their definition of sin is not always the same, if you get my drift. Yes, there is conflict sometimes, but pick your support group and who really cares what the rest think ... it is about faith, trust and God.

Everyone's walk is not the same, everyone's history is not the same and just as in the world we live we will not ever agree on many things. The old devil will work hard to drive away even the most dedicated....that's his job!! He is powerful but with God's help he can be defeated in our personal life ... and in the end he will be destroyed. He knows how it will all end. He is not a loner, He wants to take as many with him as possible.

If I am out-of-line, please forgive me, early morning scatter-shooting.

Excellent points Naomi

[cardw]

Talk about ego and the necessity of being right!!

Everything here is apparently nonsense and a waste of time, silliness, trivia, futility, mental gymnastics, ego and fear--- those are all your favorite words to describe "Adventist culture." Same ol', same ol'.

So, what keeps you here?

I'm just asking the obvious question because your posts leave no doubt that you actually like Adventists. You say you have such great friends and joy in your life--- yet you're spending a lot of time on this forum talking to Adventists. What then is it about SDAs or their beliefs that apparently attract you?

You're right it is about my ego. The difference is I don't lie to myself and try and tell myself that I'm about some higher good.

What you are doing here is trying to say that because I have an ego then you don't. If you can't address the failures of your culture you will continue to fail. No one is immune to that problem. And your ego will continue to blind you.

Was anything I said factually wrong? You didn't even address that. Instead you lean on the idea that because I'm doing it too then you aren't.

I care about people and what is true. I don't care about toxic and hypocritical cultures. Truth sets you free, even uncomfortable ones.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Everything here is apparently nonsense and a waste of time, silliness, trivia, futility, mental gymnastics, ego and fear--- those are all your favorite words to describe "Adventist culture." Same ol', same ol'.

So, what keeps you here?

I'm just asking the obvious question because your posts leave no doubt that you actually like Adventists. You say you have such great friends and joy in your life--- yet you're spending a lot of time on this forum talking to Adventists. What then is it about SDAs or their beliefs that apparently attract you?

You're right it is about my ego. The difference is I don't lie to myself and try and tell myself that I'm about some higher good.

What you are doing here is trying to say that because I have an ego then you don't. ... your ego will continue to blind you.

I care about people and what is true. I don't care about toxic and hypocritical cultures. Truth sets you free, even uncomfortable ones.

All you talked about is ego. (By the way, I never suggested that I don't have an ego. Everyone has an ego, only some egos are bigger than others.)

You didn't touch on the main part of my post-- which is the question, "What then is it about SDAs or their beliefs that apparently attract (or draw) you?"

It makes no sense to me that, on the one hand, you say, "I don't care about toxic and hypocritical cultures," and yet, on the other hand, you spend so much time with the same people that you claim have toxic and hypocritical cultures.

You say you like being honest. Can you be completely honest about your motives and tell the truth about why you like Adventists so much even though you also clearly enjoy putting Adventists down? You seem to have a love-hate relationship going here.

That's what I'm getting from you. Maybe I'm completely wrong. Maybe you have other motives for being here year after year among a people who, as you say, have a hypocritical culture and waste time on silliness and futility.

But I have a feeling that maybe you aren't being completely honest with yourself about why you like SDAs.

[cardw]

All you talked about is ego. (By the way, I never suggested that I don't have an ego. Everyone has an ego, only some egos are bigger than others.)

[Stan]

the difference to choosing or accepting...

[Woody]

Quote:

Woody the first time around I was like 7 or 8. The only thing I was looking for was love.

This time around I will agree - I have come in as a skeptic and a cynic. But that said I came here with an open mind and an open heart. Much to my surprise I found some very cool people. But I also have seen that old evil that drove me away in the first place. I don't think I was looking for it, quite the opposite - I came here with the deepest hope that things had changed.

It sounds to me like you have found both - what you want and what you don't want. My point remains - that you can find what you are looking for. If your focus remains on that which is not good - then that will be what is on your mind.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

All you talked about is ego. (By the way, I never suggested that I don't have an ego. Everyone has an ego, only some egos are bigger than others.)

Having an ego is not a continuum. You are either talking from ego or you are not. How do you measure ego?

The "ego" is self. Everyone has a self. "Ego" simply means "I." There's nothing wrong with having a self, or an ego per se.

The difference is that the Bible teaches that people can be full of self, which the Bible says is wrong. Not all people are full of self.

We're to die daily to self. It means that every day God calls us to nail self to the cross. The cross is where we die and allow Christ to live through us.

So instead of "self" ruling, the Holy Spirit-- or Christ-- is ruling. Another term for this is being filled with the Holy Spirit, so instead of being filled with "self," we are filled with the Spirit, or led by the Spirit.