JoeMo Posted December 26, 2012 Share Posted December 26, 2012 What should one do when they find themselves disagreeing with one or more doctrinal points in the church? More importantly, what should happen if a significant (and growing) portion of the church's membership disagree with doctrinal points in the church? Historically, those groups have separated from (or been kicked out of) the church and organized into new denominations. History has shown us that this simply adds to the confusion, chaos,competition, and even deadly confrontation between denominations. This does not only happen in Christianity between SDA's, Catholics, Baptists, etc; it happens in Islam between Sunnis and Shiites and other factions. In Adventism, there is an increasing segment of the membership that have doubts about certain doctrinal or cultural points of faith. For example, is the papacy really the antichrist? Is every word ever penned by EGW the inspired truth as set down by God? Did Jesus really enter the Most Holy Place in 1844 as implied by the day-for-a-year principle? If a sufficiently large portion of church members have doubts about certain historically held doctrinal points, should they leave (or be disfellowshipped from) the church; or should the church formally reconsider the essential nature of said doctrine (leaving open the possibility that they may have been in error)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted December 26, 2012 Share Posted December 26, 2012 Why not try evangelising new converts? You've made a decision for the church a long time ago.....do you divorce your wife for disagreeing with her? concentrate on new members, be the best person that you can be.....and keep studying the scriptures...and praying ..... so what doctrines do you disagree with? Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted December 26, 2012 Author Share Posted December 26, 2012 Hi Neil, The three I mentioned in the first post are the ones I question. Saying that I "disagree" with them may be too strong of a statement. I also question the prohibition against temperate use of caffiene and alcohol. Many SDA's I know use both. Some things I question aren't necessarily doctrines; but very strong SDA cultural practices - Vegetarianism, what constitutes Sabbath-keeping, and wearing jewelry for example. For the record, I am not considering leaving the church. I was about a year ago; but a good friend on this board invited me to partake in a study of the 28 Fundamentals as found on the church website; and there were none I took sufficient issue with to justify leaving a faith that I love. I am convicted that Sabbath observance is highly correlated with my relationship with Jesus; and I strongly believe that He is coming soon. At the bare minimum, that makes me a generic SDA if not a card carrying one. Many Adventists I know - even some elders and pastors - struggle with these and other issues while still being active members in church. Is that hypocritical? Alternatively, if my experience with my circle of SDA friends is universal, should the church be re-examining the essentiality of some of these doctrines/practices? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted December 26, 2012 Share Posted December 26, 2012 Our church has historically encouraged dialogue and study and expects there to be disagreements. The three you mention are often discussed in our institutions of learning. I know of the most well known professors at Andrews who teach disagreement with various points of the three that you have mentioned. I don't think it's a big deal. Like Neil points out - we need to continue to do the work of the church despite our disagreements. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cricket Posted December 26, 2012 Share Posted December 26, 2012 Pray for guidance. Listen to God's instructions. Act from there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted December 26, 2012 Share Posted December 26, 2012 Good one Cricket. If it is agreement one is after - I'm afraid we are doomed. As evident from this forum - most of us can't agree with the most basic doctrines of Christianity. How in the world would one expect agreement on the more advanced studies? Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted December 26, 2012 Author Share Posted December 26, 2012 Woody and cricket, The advice you have is exactly how I feel! As you both know, there are those who would disagree; and consider a person with such doubts (especially after having been in the church for over 30 years) to be some sort of infidel. On another forum, I defended some (but not all)of the practices of spiritual formation - I even practice some. (cricket - one of the things you recommended - listening for God's instructions - is part of spiritual formation. To even THINK that someone besides a prophet could hear God's voice ...) The veracity of the negative feedback I got from that was astounding. Same thing with my position on LGBT's and WO. It just got me thinking about my concerns over other aspects of "good" Adventism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted December 26, 2012 Share Posted December 26, 2012 I think you are getting good advice. Really, the basics of Christianity are very few, churches add to the list for membership reasons. As long as your 'questions' don't keep you from being a member, from your 'point of view', don't sweat it. None of us have all the correct answers, it is a journey until the end. The .org gets a bit peturbed when people try to take their points of disbelief or questioning and change others,ie, preaching against the .org. I know an individual who went through a deep, dark period of questioning but never gave up on God or the church. He is now a pastor again and has been for quite sometime, a strong beleiver in a prayer life. EGW talks about an experiential relationship with God. Above all, it is not about others 'thinking' but about your 'conversation' with God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted December 26, 2012 Author Share Posted December 26, 2012 Thanks, CoAspen! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted December 26, 2012 Share Posted December 26, 2012 Thanks, CoAspen! 2 Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Jeannieb43 Posted December 27, 2012 Moderators Share Posted December 27, 2012 I don't think vegetarianism is a test of fellowship. It's just the preference of most Adventists. But even Ellen White ate pork at the early stages of her life; she left it off at some later point on her own motivation, not because of doctrinal requirements. [i think this is correct; can't vouch for its authenticity exactly.] Also, Ellen White herself changed her position on the beginning and ending times of the Sabbath. She at first believed God had inspired her to start and end the holy day of worship from 6 p.m. Friday to 6 p.m. Saturday. It was only later in her life, after some of the church brethren had continued to study the Scriptures on the subject, and then they prevailed upon her to change her advice on this topic, that the change was made to sunset Friday to sunset Saturday as the times for observing the Sabbath. [i heard Elder Baldwin of the White Estate tell this example in person many years ago in Loma Linda.] Other customs of Adventist life may change from time to time, also. When I was a child no one was allowed to sing in the church choir who wore a wedding ring. My mother had a close college chum who was from New Zealand originally; she was an excellent singer but she wore a wedding ring. This was a problem for her. Nowadays, however, many people wear wedding rings, both in the choir and even in the pulpit. There is now no rule against such, that I know of. These things are merely customs; they are not doctrines. Times change. We have an unchanging God. He is not concerned with cultural fads, which come and go and change periodically throughout the world. His unchanging grace toward mankind is the basis for my love and devotion to Him. It doesn't matter to me if there are people who try to change my lifestyle at times; I'm not here to become their progeny, but to love the Lord my God with all my heart, mind and body. GayatfootofCross 1 Quote Jeannie<br /><br /><br />...Change is inevitable; growth is optional.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted December 27, 2012 Members Share Posted December 27, 2012 Great post CoAspen, pretty much my thoughts. JoeMo for me personally, if all the so called doctrines have problems, it still doesn't take away from what we read in the Bible and the type of lives that we need to live and what Jesus did for us. The SDA church is still the only one that follows the Bible. There will always be disagreements, that shouldn't pull us apart, but bring us closer to Jesus. Quote phkrause Obstinacy is a barrier to all improvement. - ChL 60 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted December 27, 2012 Author Share Posted December 27, 2012 Amen, Jeannie! It's too bad all of our brothers and sisters don't see things that way. I have a friend who was a Catholic nun before she became an SDA; but she never removed her ring - a sign for her that she was married to Jesus. She was never allowed to hold any office in church - not even as a greeter - because of that ring. She eventually left the church out of discouragement and frustration. I have seen "Shiite" vegetarians among us complain loudly at a pot-luck about some idiot (aka newcomer or visitor) who had the gall to bring a bucket of KFC to church. The family left in shame and embarassment; but the chicken was the first thing gone at the pot luck! One of my sons, as a teenager, was publicly chewed out by a church member for wearing a purple suit to church because it was a blatantly "gay" suit. He never came back to church. True, many of the things that set Adventists apart are simoply cultural; but some of those cultural idiosyncracies define us to converts; and it scares many of them away. They don't see the love of Christ that we proclaim; and they are gone - many times not only from Adventism, but to Christianity altogether. I could give you some examples from this website; but you are likely already aware. Some may say that these are the exception rather than the rule; but so were the Columbine shooters and the Aurora theater shooter. Yet we see the impact that these exceptions have on the general public. We as Christians are very good at shooting our own wounded; and it has a very negative impact on peoples' spiritual life and the public's perception of Christianity. These cultural purists are the ones who have caused me in the past to question my place in the Adventist Church. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzarkWoman Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 bonnie 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted December 27, 2012 Author Share Posted December 27, 2012 Thanks for posting that song, OW. My point exactly - not only for others but for myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Gail Posted December 27, 2012 Administrators Share Posted December 27, 2012 In a big way I am so glad that no one has problems with the concept of LOVE, because that is what all the law hangs on. IOW, that is what matters, isn't it? Quote Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted December 27, 2012 Author Share Posted December 27, 2012 I do agree Gail! Obedience and compliance will get you no where in the Kingdom unless it is motivated by love for God and your fellow man (including your brothers and sisters in church). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Gail Posted December 27, 2012 Administrators Share Posted December 27, 2012 Sometimes those other topics gain the headlines more than what the "guts" of Christianity do. Quote Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epaminondas Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 Suck it up. They're not going to listen to you. This is the unadorned truth. If you can find a church that's a closer match to what you believe is true, join them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epaminondas Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 This is not true. Like in Pravda, no opposing viewpoints are tolerated in any of the SDA publications, except on topics they want to adopt a new viewpoint. A clear, well-founded opposing viewpoint rubbishing their viewpoint is especially unwelcome. The three points mentioned are not of great importance and in some cases cannot be resolved. Of course not everything Ellen White wrote was true - pigs have nothing to do with leprosy and reading novels doesn't drive one mad. Given these facts, no person of even minimal intelligence will argue that everything Ellen White wrote was true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kevin H Posted December 29, 2012 Moderators Share Posted December 29, 2012 One of the reasons why our pioneers formed this church was because they were kicked out of churches where they had dissagreements and were kicked out for them, and they wanted to join where they were free to follow the dictates of their own conscience and as long as they were not fanatical, feel free to study and dissagree. I believe that there are some issues such as not taking the Church's money and attack major doctrines, and allowing for an openess of discussing topics and looking at arguments against your point of view to help you examine the view better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 [@ JoMo] You have posted a well thought out discussion on minor issues that we USED to make mountains out of...I remember a story Pastor Vendon talked about regarding jewelry...a grandmother wore to church, a necklace, that was made by her non-adventist grandchildren and insisted that she wear it to church...which she did, fearing some sort of disrespectful verbage...And as she walked her grandchildren to church, a church member, well versed on the ways of Adventists, greeted this grandmother and said, "we don't wear jewelry to church" and tore off the necklass that the grandchildren made...as the homemade beads fell to the ground, the grandchildren scrambled to pick up the broken necklace....And Pastor Vendon said, "you think those non-adventist kids had a positive view of the Adventist church?" It is relationship and ONLY your relationship with Christ that matters....from this, all other relationships are formed. If your relationship with Christ is off, then it is HIS responsibility to correct it...Having said that, it is OUR responsibility to try things with our Lord that works for us...an experimental/experiencial relationship that works for us...All within the confines of Love....it always does... Having said that, I will say that there is always things that people will disagree with...even doctrines...due to our experiences, our definitions of things, our understandings..but that is a part of us....and who we are...Allow others to be who they are...It's the loving thing to do...for minor things...The question is, "what is minor?" As I get older, I tend to subscribe to the idea that if someone is my friend, all things between us are minor.... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted December 30, 2012 Members Share Posted December 30, 2012 Excellent post Neil I agree whole heartedly with you. Quote phkrause Obstinacy is a barrier to all improvement. - ChL 60 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 well pk ... if you agree with his post ... you are agreeing with defiance of the rules established here on this particular forum . Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted December 30, 2012 Members Share Posted December 30, 2012 Well Woody I disagree with your disagreeing with my agreeing Quote phkrause Obstinacy is a barrier to all improvement. - ChL 60 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.