LifeHiscost Posted June 18, 2005 Share Posted June 18, 2005 Quote: benherndon said: and sometimes we have a tendency to take it out of context. Ben Did it ever occur to you, Ben, that in order to keep any of the Scripture in context, we would have to travel back in time to exactly the same place the word was originally spoken, with the very same participants, under the very same conditions, with the very same petty reasons being given for not accepting the Word as was presented then. Under the contextual dividing line, deemed by man necessary to understand what principles God is willing to share with His very narrow minded servants, most of the world's inhabitants would be totally left without access to the keys of the kingdom. [:"red"] "Amplified Bible (AMP) I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind (declare to be improper and unlawful) on earth [Charles B. Williams, The New Testament: A Translation: "The perfect passive participle, here referring to a state of having been already forbidden [or permitted]."] must be what is already bound in heaven; and whatever you loose (declare lawful) on earth [Charles B. Williams, The New Testament: A Translation: "The perfect passive participle, here referring to a state of having been already forbidden [or permitted]."] must be what is already loosed in heaven. " [/] Matthew 16:19 AMP Keep the faith! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benherndon Posted June 18, 2005 Share Posted June 18, 2005 Quote: Did it ever occur to you, Ben, that in order to keep any of the Scripture in context, we would have to travel back in time to exactly the same place the word was originally spoken, with the very same participants, under the very same conditions, with the very same petty reasons being given for not accepting the Word as was presented then. Under the contextual dividing line, deemed by man necessary to understand what principles God is willing to share with His very narrow minded servants, most of the world's inhabitants would be totally left without access to the keys of the kingdom. >>>Yes, LHC, I have thought of that and perhaps I am the chief offender in that regard. I will now 'cork my beak'! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Amnsn Posted July 3, 2005 Share Posted July 3, 2005 Quote: benherndon said: Eph 2 in describing this says:----verse 14 "For Christ himself has made peace between us Jews and you Gentiles by making us all one people. He has broken down the wall of hostility that used to separate us. v 15--BY HIS DEATH HE ENDED THE WHOLE SYSTEM OF JEWISH LAW THAT EXCLUDED THE GENTILES" (NLT verson) Pick up any version of the Bible and you will see that Paul was referring to the Law of MOses, including the Ten Commandments, mostly the ceremonial parts for emphasis----"By his death He ended the whole system of Jewish law that excluded the gentiles." Let's take a closer look at the phrase "the Law of commandments contained in ordinances" (Eph 2:15) and the phrase "handwriting of ordinances that was against us" (Col 2:14). If the word "ordinances" in these texts refers to God's Old Testament laws or instructions, then it would be correct to conclude that God's instructions contained in the Law of Moses were "abolished" or "nailed to the cross". However, if the word "ordinances" does not refer to God's laws then many Christians have been deceived. The Greek word for "ordinances" used in both Eph 2:15 and Col 2:14 is dogmasin (a form of the word dogma). In the Septuagint (the Greek Old Testament that was in use when the New Testament was written) we find that the word dogma (in all its various forms) was never used to refer to any of God's laws or the Law of Moses. God's laws, statutes, commandments, and ordinances are mentioned hundreds of times in the Septuagint, but not once did the Greek translators use the word dogma (or any of its various forms) in connection with any God-given law or instruction. The various forms of the word dogma appear only in the books of Esther and Daniel and in each instance dogma refers to a man-made decree, rule, or command. In the New Testament the word dogma (in its various forms) appears in only six verses. (Luke 2:1, Acts 16:4, Acts 17:7, Eph 2:15, Col 2:14, Col 2:20) Of those, four are obviously referring to man-made decrees or rules, not to God's laws. The remaining two occurances of dogma are found in the verses under discussion here (Eph 2:15 and Col 2:14). On what basis could we conclude that dogmasin in Eph 2:15 and Col 2:14 refers to God's Law? Not on the basis of scriptural usage -- in every case in the Greek Scriptures dogma is used in connection with man-mad laws. If Paul actually intended to refer to the Law of Moses, he could have used one of the same Greek words that the Greek Old Testament used to refer to the Law of Moses. But he didn't. He used a word that in Scripture referred to man-made laws. The Old Testament Scriptures (which Paul endorsed in 2 Tim 3:16) repeatedly say that various instructions of Torah are perpetual "throughout your generations". There were still new generations of Jews being born at the time Paul was writing Ephesians and Colosians, so according to Scripture those Torah instructions would have still been valid. Gerry has done a good job of showing that God's Old Testament laws didn't create a barrier wall between Jew and Gentile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 Quote: Ron Ammundsen said: God's Old Testament laws didn't create a barrier wall between Jew and Gentile. Thank you, Ron, for adding that very logical bit of Biblical evidence to substantiate the perpetuity of our Father's Law of Love. One thing that helps make this reality benefit the child of God in his personal application, is desire to see that God made no mistakes in His counsels to His chosen, and is willing to follow wherever those counsels lead. [:"red"] " If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God..." [/] John 7:17 KJV [:"red"] "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." [/] Matthew 4:4 Another thing that seems evident here, Jesus seemed perfectly willing to use Scripture out of context to advance the principles His Father wished to convey. [:"red"] "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." [/] 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benherndon Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 Ron, does Jack Blanco's SDA-translation, THE CLEAR WORD BIBLE, help?---"And by His death for all of us, Christ has also done away with the antagonism that existed between Jews and Gentiles. He is the One that brought us together in love and broke down the wall of prjudice that had been built up between us. He is the One who did away with the hatred that separated us because of the many misapplications of the Scriptures. But now we have a new relationship with each other and it's all because of Him." [Eph 2:14,15 Clear Word Bible (Blanco)] Do you see Blanco mentioning any man-made ordinances? Even Blanco speaks to 'misapplication' of the Scriptures----What scriptures? Undoubtedly even Blanco is referring to 'the Law of Moses'having been 'misapplied' to the Gentiles causing the hatred and separation. You are aware that review of the history of the Jews and the Gentiles there was a "separation" much like that of the Whites vs the Blacks in early America. My own mother was part 'native American' and in 1880 in America 'natives' were not considered high on the evolutionary ladder. She's told me about it in her own adoptive family where she was considered of lower genetics and in public schools she was shunned sometimes because of her 'native' inheritance. Sorry, Ron-------try again! I'm sorry you are having trouble understanding Paul's plain reference to 'the Law and its ordinances and decrees' being a separation 'wall' between the Jew and the Gentile. Gentiles were allowed into the sanctuary/temple but only up to that "Wall", the 'barrier' that separated them from the Jews on pain of death!!! Not even a 'converted' gentile was allowed into the temple to go beyond that 'wall'. Jews could go beyond that 'wall'----but not any body born a gentile, converted or not!!---as it has been explained to me, at least. Ron, study it all a little more. Work on understanding what Paul is talking about collectively in all his letters to the early Christians. Read again the New Testament with a clear and unburdened-with-other-thoughts-mind! When it comes through it does so with great clarity. But it takes some deprogramming for some SDAs. "Those who cannot impartially examine the evidence or position that differs from theirs, are not fit to teach in any department of God's cause." 1SM 411 I suppose one can twist this around to mean most anything they want and one can be sure it is being done by both sides of this argument. But standing alone as a statement it means, at the very least, that one should not be hampered in his unbiased search for truth by any preconcieved ideas or restrictions. In other words, like Occamm's 'razor'---it probably means just what it first seemed to most of those who read it. 99% of Christians believe Paul is speaking to the 'Law of MOses' and certainly all the Greek/English translators do too. Check out once again the NLT. Check out the 'Interlinear' Greek/English word for word translation--- "For he is our peace, who made both one, and the middle wall of the fence broke down, the enmity in his flesh, the law of commandments in decrees having annulled, that the two he might create in himself into one new man, making peace; and might reconcile both in one body to God through the cross, having slain the enmity by it; and having come he announced the glad tiding--- peace to you who [were]afar off and to those near. For through him we have access both by one Spirit to the father." [berry, Interlinear Greek/English NT. Underlining is mine] Does this man know Greek as well as you, Ron? Is there anything in the original wording of this in Greek to English, word for word, that indicates something about a man-made set of rules OTHER THAN the Law of Moses?---which all my 20 translators agree it says? Are you aware that the two tables of the Law were 'hand written'by God? Are you aware that the entire Torah was 'hand written' by Moses? "The law of commandments contained in ordinances"---?? "handwriting of ordinances that was against us" ----?? You have a problem? Well, let us read your personal translation of the Greek. And, let us see your idea of exactly what Paul WAS speaking of if not the Law of MOses! Direct response to your direct response! Sorry! Remember something else---like 'the Law' when written and given, like circumcision when ordered and done, like the Passover when instituted and followed, like the Feast of Unleavened Bread when instituted and followed, like the covenant of 'salt' and like not wearing cloth of different threads-----all were to last 'thoughout your generations'. And, Yes!, there are Jews today like there were in Paul's time. But you, my friend, are a gentile--is that correct? I am? (I think! ) If 'the Law' must be followed in its details today like it was in 'olden times' then....so should circumcision, the Passover and the Unleavened Bread...and Paul says that if we must keep any of 'the Law' we must KEEP IT ALL! Do you 'keep it all'? (Actually are any of us keeping any of it? Just going to church on Sabbath and refraining from 'any' work is NOT keeping the Sabbath, dear friends. There is a lot more to keeping 'the Law' than just 'observing' the Sabbath, please understand. And, we all 'screw up' not only now and then but all the time!) I need a real 'automatically forgiving' Savior or I am in big trouble for my salvation! But, I agree there are some a lot more perfect than I am. I hope their 'perfection' works for them! Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 Quote: benherndon said: >> But you, my friend, are a gentile<< [:"red"] "And now that you belong to Christ, you are the true children of Abraham. You are his heirs, and now all the promises God gave to him belong to you." [/] Gal 3:29 NLT Quote: benherndon said:I need a real 'automatically forgiving' Savior or I am in big trouble for my salvation! But, I agree there are some a lot more perfect than I am. I hope their 'perfection' works for them! The first promise does not seem to make 'automatic' an option. Unless believing would be considered automatic. And I have yet to see a disciple following Jesus without personal committment. [:"red"] "For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." "And he [Abram] believed in (trusted in, relied on, remained steadfast to) the Lord, and He counted it to him as righteousness (right standing with God). " [/] Romans 4:3 NKJV Genesis 15:6 AMP Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benherndon Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 Categorically speaking, gentiles were not included in God's plan for the Israelites. Gentiles were open to God's plan only after the Christ/Cross event. The text you quote from Gal 3 did not apply prior to the Cross. Automatic forgiveness? Didn't Christ 'gift' us 'unmerited forgiveness' of our sins, we who believe and obey Christ's Law. In the Mosaic era of law forgiveness was promised, not obtained, by the sinner doing something like offering a sacrifice and it was only for unintentional sins. Intentional sins was to be punished by death like the man that picked up sticks on Sabbath. However, God obviously didn't follow His own rules (God is King, after all---Kings don't have to follow their own rules!) and, for example, even though King David deliberately adulterated, God forgave him and even said eventually that he never did anything wrong in His sight. Christ became what we are that we might become like Him. He declared what was not as though it was. Rom 4:23-25. That is what is referred to as Grace, if I understand it properly. Personal committment? ---and your point is? There is a certain element of mystery in this 'thing' called Godliness. I don't understand it all. I just believe and 'trust'. I think I have 'committed'--maybe some others don't think so. I hope they're wrong! Ben Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted July 6, 2005 Share Posted July 6, 2005 Quote: benherndon said: Categorically speaking, gentiles were not included in God's plan for the Israelites. [:"red"] "Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews." [/] John 4:22 KJV [:"red"] "Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:" [/] Matthew 25:34 KJV [:"red"] "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:" [/] Ephesians 1:4 KJV Quote: Gentiles were open to God's plan only after the Christ/Cross event. Are you saying then there are many in the old testament days who never had the personal choice to receive the grace of Jesus Christ? [:"red"] "And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together." [/] Genesis 22:8 KJV (Bold LHC) [:"red"] "Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel, and said unto them, Draw out and take you a lamb according to your families, and kill the passover.... strike the lintel and the two side posts with the blood....LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the LORD will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you. " [/] Ex 12:21-23 KJV [:"red"] "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber." [/] John 10:1 [:"red"] "Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep." [/] John 10:7 KJV [:"red"] "It was by faith that Moses commanded the people of Israel to keep the Passover and to sprinkle blood on the doorposts so that the angel of death would not kill their firstborn sons." [/] Heb 11:28 NLT [:"red"] "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." [/] John 1:29 KJV Quote: Personal committment? ---and your point is? Just that personal effort to walk where God calls is never without reward, given in response to His children who think He's important enough to pay attention to His voice. Quote: There is a certain element of mystery in this 'thing' called Godliness. Ben I couldn't agree with you more. [:"red"] "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." [/] 1 Cor 13:12 KJV [:"red"] "Charity (Love LHC) never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away." [/] 1 Cor 8-10 KJV Now if we could just motivate all to accept such a simple truth. Blessings! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted July 6, 2005 Author Moderators Share Posted July 6, 2005 Quote: benherndon said: Categorically speaking, gentiles were not included in God's plan for the Israelites. Gentiles were open to God's plan only after the Christ/Cross event. The text you quote from Gal 3 did not apply prior to the Cross. [:"red"]"And [:"blue"]foreigners [/] who bind themselves to the LORD to serve him, to love the name of the LORD, and to worship him, all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it and who hold fast to my covenant - these I will bring to my holy mountain and give them joy in my house of prayer. Their burnt offerings ans sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; [:"blue"]for my house will be called a house of prayer FOR ALL NATIONS." Isa 56:6-8 NIV [/] "And when a stranger dwells with you and wants to keep the Passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as a native of the land. For no uncircumcised person shall eat it. One law shall be for the native-born and for the stranger who dwells among you." Ex 12:48,49 NKJ. [/] Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benherndon Posted July 6, 2005 Share Posted July 6, 2005 Quote: Gerry Cabalo said: Quote: benherndon said: Categorically speaking, gentiles were not included in God's plan for the Israelites. Gentiles were open to God's plan only after the Christ/Cross event. The text you quote from Gal 3 did not apply prior to the Cross. [:"red"]"And [:"blue"]foreigners [/] who bind themselves to the LORD to serve him, to love the name of the LORD, and to worship him, all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it and who hold fast to my covenant - these I will bring to my holy mountain and give them joy in my house of prayer. Their burnt offerings ans sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; [:"blue"]for my house will be called a house of prayer FOR ALL NATIONS." Isa 56:6-8 NIV [/] [/] [/]>>>>Let's not argue and have friction----let's learn together, Gerry and LHC. This text in Isa 56 is a 'prophecy' given through the mind of Old Testament saints who did not understand yet the implications of Christ's coming sacrifice on the Cross. What Isaiah is saying in this text you present was not the actual state of affairs at the time he was writing it. It is a prophecy of what was to happen in the future. Go back and read the entire chapter--in fact the whole book, if you will. Gerry, a year or so ago you were, I thought, reading through the New Living Translation,the "NLT." Did you stop?----I have suggested you explain Eph 2. Did you read it in the NLT? "Don't forget that you Gentiles used to be outsiders by birth. You were called "the uncircumcised ones" by the Jews, who were proud of their circumcision, even though it affected only their bodies and not their hearts. In those days you were living apart from Christ. You were excluded from Gods people, Israel, and youo did not know the promises God had made to them. You lived in this world without God and without hope.........For Christ himself has made peace between us Jews and you Gentiles by making us all one people. He has broken down the wall of hostility that used to separate us. By his death he ended the whole system of Jewish law that excluded the Gentiles...." Eph 2:11-15 Why do you continue to resist what I am trying my best to help you see? Understand this--- from my long association since birth and 20 yrs of SDA education and attending SS and church for 80+ yrs, I know pretty exactly where the two of you are coming from AND I know pretty well what is underlying your thoughts and reasoning----"the writings". And, this has caused me to suggest 'the writings' should be 'pastoral' rather than 'authoritatively nearCanonical'. Quote: [:"red"] "And when a stranger dwells with you and wants to keep the Passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as a native of the land. For no uncircumcised person shall eat it. One law shall be for the native-born and for the stranger who dwells among you." Ex 12:48,49 NKJ. [/] Gerry >>>>Yes, Gerry, here it is given rather clearly from the NLT: "If there are foreigners living among you who want to celebrate the Lord's Passover, let all the males be circumcised. They they may come and celebrate the Passover with you. They will be treated just as if they had been born among you. But an uncircumcised male may never eat of the Passover lamb. This law [regarding the Passover??] applies to everyone whether a native-born Israelite or a foreigner who has settled among you." Ex 12:48,49 NLT So, in Eph 2, Paul is speaking categorically about Gentiles as a group, is he not, rather than about the rare exception that was allowed now and then for a gentile to become as it were a Jew. Note once again that the gentiles were excluded 'by' the Law which was given only to the 'nation' of Israel--which had never been a 'nation' prior to the Exodus. See Ps 147:19-20--"HE has revealed his words to Jacob, his principles and laws to Israel. HE has not done this with any other nation; they do not know his laws." See also Deut 5:2-3 and quite a few other texts in the OT and NT. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benherndon Posted July 6, 2005 Share Posted July 6, 2005 Talk to me, please--don't just quote a text (I don't always know how you are applying some texts you guys quote)---tell me why YOU think what I am deducing from scripture is wrong, please. I am having compassion for you guys---how about a little reciprocation? I am not frowning or mad or upset----and I do not have red skin, arrow headed tail, with horns on my head and a pitchfork threatening in my hands!--- Aren't we all just seeking the truth from the Bible? If not, according to our founder, we should be---right? "Those who cannot impartially examine the evidence or position that differs from theirs, are not fit to teach in any department of God's cause." 1SM 411 I am not 'downing' EGW!! She was a sincere godly and saintly lady with a lot of talent and some leadership qualities and some good progressive ideas----but she was a human lady who was obviously not fully comprehending the teachings of the New Testament-----and the old English and antiquated expressions in the KJV of her day was difficult to comprehend. Few people knew Greek at all in comparison to today in this computer age when knowledge and information even about the past is much more widely known than it was 160 yrs ago. We must progress in knowledge with the times as they go by. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted July 7, 2005 Author Moderators Share Posted July 7, 2005 Quote: benherndon said: Talk to me, please--don't just quote a text (I don't always know how you are applying some texts you guys quote)---tell me why YOU think what I am deducing from scripture is wrong, please. I am having compassion for you guys---how about a little reciprocation? I am not frowning or mad or upset----and I do not have red skin, arrow headed tail, with horns on my head and a pitchfork threatening in my hands!--- [:"blue"]Ben, would you rather hear my words or God's? Did the Covenants & promises belong to the non-Israelites? As group, no. In that regard you are correct. Why? [:"red"] "With Lord's authority let me say this: Live no longer as the ungodly [GK Gentiles] do, for they are hopelessly confused. Their closed minds are full of darkness; they are far away from the life of God because they have shut their minds and hardened their hearts against him. They don't care anymore about right and wrong, and they have given themselves over to immoral ways. Their lives are filled will all kinds of impurity and greed." Eph 4:17-19 NLT. [/]BUT, [:"red"] "I will also bless the Gentiles who commit themselves to the LORD and serve him and love his name, who worship him and do not desecrate the Sabbath day of rest, and who have accepted his covenent. I will bring them also to my holy mountain of Jerusalem and will fill them with joy in my house of prayer. I will accept their burnt offerings and sacrifices, because my Temple will be called a house of prayer for all nations." Isa 56:6,7 NLT. [/] This is not ONLY a prophetic promise for the future but also applicable throughout OT times! Look at the Ninevites who responded to Jonah's preaching! God accepted those repentant ASSYRIANS! And please note, since you accept this Isaiah passage as prophetic for future New Testament Gentiles who accept God, please note that Isaiah said they will be SABBATH-KEEPERS! This is the impartial evidence that I see, from the Bible alone, Ben. [/] Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benherndon Posted July 7, 2005 Share Posted July 7, 2005 Thanks for talking to me. Nineveh?? It is probable that Nineveh contained lots of Jews because of the dispersion and captivity and that King Jereboarn had extended the kingdom very close to the area. In the NLT, if you will notice in the last verses of Jonah it is stated that "Nineveh has more than 120,000 people living in spiritual darkness, not to mention all the animals." The foot note in my NLT mentions that another translation of this is: "Hebrew people who don't know their right hands from their left." Maybe Jonah was sent to preach to them and 'bring' them back to the true God. He may not have been sent there because of the Gentiles. Seems probably not. Still SDAs have to deal somehow with that list of texts I've given several times. The statements are pretty plain that the old covenant law was not applicable to the Christian Jew OR Gentile. They were now under Christ's Law. Rev 21:8 lists those who will fall in the second death. cowards, unbelievers, ungodly people, murderers, adulterers, liars, witchcraft followers, idol worshipers, ----just very evil people who obviously do not respect God or man. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted July 8, 2005 Share Posted July 8, 2005 Quote: benherndon said: They were now under Christ's Law. Ben [:"red"] "Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." [/] Matt 22:35-40 KJV Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted July 8, 2005 Author Moderators Share Posted July 8, 2005 Ben, you yourself pointed out that this is a prophecy about Gentiles in NT times. In black & white (how can it be plainer?) Isaiah says they will be Sabbath keepers, yet you plainly contradict this and say that the 10c do not apply to Gentile Christians! And from Ephesians, the same letter that you are using to prove that the law has been done away with has this to say: [:"blue"] "But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you as is fitting for saints..." Eph 5:3 NKJ. How could Paul say in one breath that the law has been done away with, and then in the next breath quote the law not to fornicate or covet? [/] And what is Christ's Law? Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benherndon Posted July 8, 2005 Share Posted July 8, 2005 Quote: Gerry Cabalo said: Ben, you yourself pointed out that this is a prophecy about Gentiles in NT times. In black & white (how can it be plainer?) Isaiah says they will be Sabbath keepers, yet you plainly contradict this and say that the 10c do not apply to Gentile Christians![/] Let me reverse the question, Gerry. How can you say the Law is still binding on the believing Christian in view of those multiple texts I have listed over and over? You must remember that the NT has 'authority' over the OT. YOu must remember that tne "Mosaic era" ("reading Moses" of 2Cor 3) was over at the Cross. How can you not celebrate the Passover and other "Law" celebrations ordered for 'all your generations'? How can you not demand circumcision which was to be a sign throughout all generations? Remember also that at Creation God programmed common sense into the people's genes---not to eat each other, kill each other, steal, lie etc etc. He did NOT program a set religion into us but left us with 'free choice', right? Just because the uniquely Jewish religion and customs appointed ONLY to the Jews who were freed from slavery were stopped at the Cross when the message of salvation was to go to the whole world (gentiles) doesn't mean they were free to murder, adulterate, steal and lie, etc. You are most certainly somehow not realizing what the NT is teaching that is different from the OT and Paul says to the Pharisees that confusion is the result of 'reading Moses' (giving the Mosaic Law continued authority!) and Paul allegorically calls that being a 'veil' over their understanding. Quote: And from Ephesians, the same letter that you are using to prove that the law has been done away with has this to say: [:"blue"] "But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you as is fitting for saints..." Eph 5:3 NKJ. How could Paul say in one breath that the law has been done away with, and then in the next breath quote the law not to fornicate or covet? [/] You apparently believe that if it wasn't for 'the Law' as given to the Israelites, people would not have known it was wrong to kill, adulterate, lie, steal etc etc. If that was so, how come the gentiles 'who did not have the law' (Paul says) but had 'a law unto themselves' also knew it was not good to steal, murder and adulterate. The fact is that all mankind had a 'law unto themselves' totally regardless of "the Law of Moses" which included the law of the 'golden rule'. There are archeological evidences of laws mankind had long prior to the giving of 'the Law' at Sinai. (Incidentally, this is why people need to realize that 'the Law' was NOT given at Creation and that twisting Gen 2 to say that it was is an aggregious error that messes up understanding of the message of the Bible to a considerable extent) Soooo!! One must realize that mankind knew about how to relate to each other before the literal giving of The Law of Moses TO the Israelites at the Exodus---that Law was given under the Levitical priesthood!!---like it says in Heb. 7. It did NOT exist in the form given to those Jews on Mt. Sinai prior to them being at or near Sinai. And, realize this, Moses did not write the Pentateuch as it was lived! He wrote it AFTER it all had happened but he wrote is AS IF it was happening AS he wrote. Quote: And what is Christ's Law? Gerry "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the FIRST AND GREATEST commandment. AND the second it like unto it: (like---'first and greatest'??)'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.'" Matt 22:36-40 NIV ( or any other version ) Don't make the mistake of thinking that the Law of Moses is the 'mother' of those commandments. The message is that they are the 'mother' of the Law of Moses which was THEN adapted to the new nation of Israel which began at Sinai after being freed from the Egyptians. Until one gets this straight along with WHEN 'the Law' was given to mankind he cannot get the message of the Bible straight. This also requires that the Abrahamic 'covenant' and the Old Covenant and the New Covenant must be understood properly in their relation to each other. They are NOT the same --- they are different. At the Cross, the Old Covenant was abruptly ended--"Christ is the END of the Law!"(Rom 10) and that means HE is the end of the 'authority' of the Law of MOses over His 'new Way' people---both Jews AND gentiles. Paul has clearly shown all this IF one can overcome the programming we have been programmed to believe. Paul calls Christ's quote that I just quoted again above---He calls that 'Christ's Law'! (And, Christ's Law does NOT include strict obedience to the details of the Law of Moses that were unique to the Jews alone!!!) Just like it says in the NLT re: Eph 2:15 "By his death he ended the whole system of Jewish law that excluded the Gentiles. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benherndon Posted July 8, 2005 Share Posted July 8, 2005 Many of my SDA friends will think that I am trying to destroy the church and that is just not so!!! Think for a moment----Is the Baptist trying to destroy the Methodist? Is the Church of Christ trying to destroy the Lutheran? They all love Christ and try to live the Christian life as ordered in the New Testament. They all highly regard the OT but they agree that the NT has authority over it. However, they do see some minor things differently and, therefore, choose to worship with those who feel similarly about those minor differences. I am not against the SDA church, even though some of the posters herein apparently believe I am. There is nothing wrong with observing the Sabbath in a memorial to God Creating the world and universe? It is the ONLY day ever specially chosen by God for his then uniquely chosen people. But times progressed and mankind progressed and at the 'right time' Christ came and the message about God previously given FOR the Israelites alone was now due to go to the entire world--most of whom are not Jews!--and thus absent the uniquely formulated Law of Moses. From EGW, our founder, like the Lutherans have their good founder, we can learn how to live better and healthier lives than were being lived when she had her epiphanies. She was a talented lady of the Lord with lots of good advice for people and she was a good leader of this group of Christians. She should be honored. I feel to honor her best is to really comprehend Scripture ---- and because she said that herself (!) is what drove me in desperation to hopefully contradict the 'heresies' I thought my wife was bringing from the Women's Int'l Bible Study Fellowship. However, doing what EGW said to do opened my eyes to the understanding of the Bible---which is exactly what EGW advised me (and you, too!) to do. There is no Biblical reason at all that the tow-truck driver(or the hospital personnel and other essential workers) that must work helping people, who depend on their services to live, on the Sabbath should not be allowed to join our church without receiving criticism for Sabbath working. When he CAN go to church he will come and worship the Lord with us and pay his tithe and offerings to the Lord! In the meantime we can teach his wife and children about the Lord and we can do it on the Sabbath in 'memorial' to His creation if that is our mindset and the mindset of other who wish to worship the Lord on Sabbath with us. Once again, some believe one way and some another---and we are not to criticize them or become a 'stumbling block' to them. (Romans 14) If we are Christ's it will be observed by others because we love others who believe in and have faith in and trust the Lord to do what He promises-----save us to eternal life eventually. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 Quote: benherndon said: If we are Christ's it will be observed by others because we love others who believe in and have faith in and trust the Lord to do what He promises-----save us to eternal life eventually. Ben To believe in Jesus would mean to believe that what He says is always true, until He determines it to come to an end. Our biggest problem, in many cases, is to be more concerned about whether our place in heaven is assured, instead of being concerned whether are personal behaviour influences others to receive the promise of Jesus, not to exclude this poor example of a disciple. [:"red"] "Don't eat meat or drink wine or do anything else if it might cause another Christian to stumble." [/] Rom 14:21 NLT [:"red"] "...How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me." [/] [:"red"] "But Abraham said, `Moses and the prophets have warned them. Your brothers can read their writings anytime they want to.' "The rich man replied, `No, Father Abraham! But if someone is sent to them from the dead, then they will turn from their sins.' ...If they won't listen to Moses and the prophets, they won't listen even if someone rises from the dead.' " [/] Luke 16:29-31 NLT [:"red"] "...Hear me, O Judah, and ye inhabitants of Jerusalem; Believe in the LORD your God, so shall ye be established; believe his prophets, so shall ye prosper." [/] 2 Chronicles 20:20 KJV [:"red"] ""But always, first of all, I warn you through my servants the prophets. I, the Sovereign LORD, have now done this." [/] Amos 3:7 NLT Keep the faith! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Amnsn Posted July 10, 2005 Share Posted July 10, 2005 Hello Ben, I don't have Blanco's SDA paraphrase of the Bible. I wouldn't rely on a paraphrase to decide which interpretation of Eph 2:14-15 was what Paul himself intended. Quote: benherndon said: Undoubtedly even Blanco is referring to 'the Law of Moses'having been 'misapplied' to the Gentiles causing the hatred and separation. What makes this assertion undoubtable? Quote: You are aware that review of the history of the Jews and the Gentiles there was a "separation" much like that of the Whites vs the Blacks in early America. Was that "separation" or antagonism caused by God's law? If so, please quote the relevant laws from the books of Moses showing that the law required separation or antagonism between Jews and Gentiles. Quote: Sorry, Ron-------try again! I'm sorry you are having trouble understanding Paul's plain reference to 'the Law and its ordinances and decrees' being a separation 'wall' between the Jew and the Gentile. Ben, you haven't yet shown from Scripture that the Law of Moses created the 'wall' of separation or the enmity between Jews and Gentiles. Quote: Gentiles were allowed into the sanctuary/temple but only up to that "Wall", the 'barrier' that separated them from the Jews on pain of death!!! Where in the Law of Moses does it talk about such a wall? If the building of that wall is not specified in the Law of Moses (or elsewhere in Scipture), then isn't it a man-made regulation? Quote: Not even a 'converted' gentile was allowed into the temple to go beyond that 'wall'. Jews could go beyond that 'wall'----but not any body born a gentile, converted or not!!---as it has been explained to me, at least. I think your source may be mistaken. The Talmud (writings of Jewish rabbis) contains references showing that Gentile converts who went through the ritual conversion requirements of the rabbis were to be treated as if they were born Jews. Quote: Ron, study it all a little more. Work on understanding what Paul is talking about collectively in all his letters to the early Christians. Read again the New Testament with a clear and unburdened-with-other-thoughts-mind! When it comes through it does so with great clarity. But it takes some deprogramming for some SDAs. Ben, that's how I arrived at the beliefs I have now. I intentionally set aside all the Christian commentary that has been produced over the centuries (as best I could) and tried to read the New Testament as it would be read by someone living in the first century, when the New Testament was written. As a result, my beliefs differ from what the church teaches. Quote: "Those who cannot impartially examine the evidence or position that differs from theirs, are not fit to teach in any department of God's cause." 1SM 411 I suppose one can twist this around to mean most anything they want and one can be sure it is being done by both sides of this argument. But standing alone as a statement it means, at the very least, that one should not be hampered in his unbiased search for truth by any preconcieved ideas or restrictions. In other words, like Occamm's 'razor'---it probably means just what it first seemed to most of those who read it. 99% of Christians believe Paul is speaking to the 'Law of MOses' and certainly all the Greek/English translators do too. Ephesians 2:14-15 most certainly does mean what it first seemed mean to those who first read it when Paul first wrote it. At that time Christians were familiar with the Old Testament and were zealously living by God's instructions contained in the Law of Moses. The New Testament wasn't available yet. By contrast, Christians today don't know much of what the Old Testament teaches, and because they have been steeped in centuries of anti-Torah theology, they imagine that the Law of Moses is onerous. When you take into account these differences between the original readers of Ephesians and the modern readers of Ephesians, it is understandable that 99% of modern Christians misunderstand what Paul wrote. Quote: Check out the 'Interlinear' Greek/English word for word translation --- "For he is our peace, who made both one, and the middle wall of the fence broke down, the enmity in his flesh, the law of commandments in decrees having annulled, that the two he might create in himself into one new man, making peace; and might reconcile both in one body to God through the cross, having slain the enmity by it; and having come he announced the glad tiding--- peace to you who [were]afar off and to those near. For through him we have access both by one Spirit to the father." [berry, Interlinear Greek/English NT. Underlining is mine] Does this man know Greek as well as you, Ron? I'm just a beginner at learning Greek. In my studies I rely the on the computerized concordances, dictionaries, and interlinears prepared by those who know more than I do. Did you notice that Green's interlinear doesn't say anything about the Law of Moses in these verses? You are apparently assuming that the phrase "law of commandments in decrees" means the Law of Moses. On what do you base that assumption? Green translates "dogmasin" as "decrees" which is exactly the way the word is used in the Greek scriptures -- referring only to the decrees of men. Quote: Is there anything in the original wording of this in Greek to English, word for word, that indicates something about a man-made set of rules OTHER THAN the Law of Moses?---which all my 20 translators agree it says? Ben, you're deluding yourself if you think all of your 20 translations agree it is the Law of Moses. Only the less literal ones say that it is the law of Moses. Some say it is "Jewish law" which is not the same as the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses is God's law whereas Jewish law would be all the extra man-made commandments that the rabbis added, some of which built barriers between Jews and Gentiles. The rest of your translations use terms that are ambiguous -- they could refer to God's law or to man-made laws. Quote: Are you aware that the two tables of the Law were 'hand written'by God? Are you aware that the entire Torah was 'hand written' by Moses? "The law of commandments contained in ordinances"---?? "handwriting of ordinances that was against us" ----?? Yes, I'm also aware that all documents used in that part of the world were handwritten. According to the Gospel accounts of the death of Christ, there was an actual handwritten legal document nailed to the cross. It was a placard listing the accusations against Jesus. In Col. 2:14 Paul is telling the believers that Jesus took our own placards which list the accusations against us, placards which would normally be nailed above our own heads when we die for our own sins, but Jesus nailed those placards to his own cross. Jesus paid the legal penalty for our crimes. The law has been satisfied (not abolished). Awesome isn't it? By the way, Jesus said that as long as heaven and earth remain nothing would disappear from the law "by any means" (Matt. 5:18) So even if the Law of Moses had been nailed to the cross (which it wasn't), even that would not cause any of the law to be abolished or disappear. And we know for a fact that nailing something to the cross doesn't annul it or make it obsolete-- Jesus himself was nailed to the cross and he wasn't annulled nor made obsolete. The only reason the handwriting that was against was canceled was because the debt for those crimes was legally paid by Jesus. Quote: Well, let us read your personal translation of the Greek. And, let us see your idea of exactly what Paul WAS speaking of if not the Law of MOses! To properly identify what Paul was talking about does not require a different translation. The literal translations that you quoted are fine. We only need to realize that the connotations of our English words are not equivalent to what Paul wrote in Greek. In English the word "commandment" seems to refer specifically to God's Law, whereas in Greek the word refers to any regulation or command given by anyone. To correctly identify what Paul is talking about, we only need to identify the source of the enmity which was abolished. If the Law of Moses created a wall of enmity between Jews and Gentiles, then Paul was talking about the Law of Moses. But if the Law of Moses did not create a wall of enmity between Jews and Gentiles, then Paul was not talking about the Law of Moses. There are numerous clues throughout Ephesians 2 which make it evident that Paul did not consider the Law of Moses to be abolished: In verse 1 Paul mentions "trespasses and sins". What document defines what a trespass is and what a sin is? The Law of Moses. In verse 12 Paul tells the Gentiles that they were formerly excluded from the commonwealth of Israel and in verse 19 Paul tells the Gentiles they are now citizens. What document tells about Israel and the benefits and responsibilities of citizens of Israel? The Law of Moses. In verse 21 Paul tells about a "holy temple". What document defines what makes a temple holy and what makes something unholy? The Law of Moses. And later in Ephesians, what does Paul mean by "righteous" if it isn't defined in the Law of Moses? Quote: Remember something else---like 'the Law' when written and given, like circumcision when ordered and done, like the Passover when instituted and followed, like the Feast of Unleavened Bread when instituted and followed, like the covenant of 'salt' and like not wearing cloth of different threads-----all were to last 'thoughout your generations'. And, Yes!, there are Jews today like there were in Paul's time. But you, my friend, are a gentile--is that correct? I am? (I think! ) If 'the Law' must be followed in its details today like it was in 'olden times' then....so should circumcision, the Passover and the Unleavened Bread...and Paul says that if we must keep any of 'the Law' we must KEEP IT ALL! Do you 'keep it all'? (Actually are any of us keeping any of it? Just going to church on Sabbath and refraining from 'any' work is NOT keeping the Sabbath, dear friends. There is a lot more to keeping 'the Law' than just 'observing' the Sabbath, please understand. And, we all 'screw up' not only now and then but all the time!) Yes Ben, if the Old Testament is true, and I believe it is, then God's instructions in the Law of Moses are still valid today. The founder of our faith (Jesus) was an Israelite who followed God's instructions as recorded in the Law of Moses. The New Testament teaches us that we too are grafted into Israel. It also teaches us to follow the example of Jesus. How could a person possibly emulate Jesus while at the same time purposely disregarding the Laws of Moses which Jesus followed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benherndon Posted July 11, 2005 Share Posted July 11, 2005 Quote: Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- benherndon said: Undoubtedly even Blanco is referring to 'the Law of Moses'having been 'misapplied' to the Gentiles causing the hatred and separation. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What makes this assertion undoubtable? >>>Undoubtable? Read this from Blanco who's paraphrase many many SDAs read:"...He is the One who brought us peace. He is the One who broke down the wall of predjudice that has been built up between us. 15 He is the One who did away with the hatred that separated us because of the many misapplications of the Scriptures....." from The Clear Word Bible, Blanco, Eph 14:15. Note that even this prime SDA Bible teacher/authority at least referred to misapplication of the Scriptures.. So he surely must have been referring to the Scriptures and not some manmade decrees separate from the Scriptures. Most of the other 20 English translations I have use clear reference to the commandments with its regulations one way or another. What manmade decrees were you referring to. If nobody knew what Paul would be talking about it would have been senseless for him to refer to it. If you interpret it differently than 99% of other Christians I would suggest the burden of proof is yours. Amplified Bible: "By abolishing in His own [crucified]flesh the enmity caused bythe Law with its decrees and ordinances which He [anulled]:..." Eph 2:15 Abolished? 'caused by'? 'the Law'?---Surely you can see this. If not, then, we are wasting time. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted July 11, 2005 Share Posted July 11, 2005 Quote: benherndon said: Quote: Amplified Bible: "By abolishing in His own [crucified]flesh the enmity caused by the Law with its decrees and ordinances which He [anulled]:..." Eph 2:15 Abolished? 'caused by'? 'the Law'?---Surely you can see this. If not, then, we are wasting time. Ben "...the enmity caused by the Law with its' decrees and ordinances, which He [annulled].." One disciple's observation: "The Ten Commandments" as differentiated from "the Ten Commandments with its' decrees and ordinances" is easily seen when recognizing the original Ten Commandments did not have decrees and ordinances. Therefore "The Ten Commandments with its' decrees and ordinances" being abolished, would reasonably be able to leave the "Ten Commandments without decrees and ordinances" fully valid and effective as it was not indicated to be causing enmity. In fact it could easily be seen that enmity would be generated by abolishing "The Ten Commandments without decrees and ordinances". For instance, there is no enmity created between people who refuse to take the life of other people. Just the opposite is true, threat (enmity) is assuaged. Therefore to leave in place "the Ten Commandments without decrees and ordinances" would bring peace (opposite of enmity) to mankind, except for those who chose other than the God of peace to rule over them. The decrees and ordinances were instituted, whether by God's direction or by man's perversity (don't carry a hanky on the Sabbath) as a direct effort to establish a rule of conduct for a people who would not allow the Lord of glory to rule over them; the latter which could have changed the heart's desire instead of only the outward performance, the last deceiving one to believe they were in conformance to the requiremnents for holiness, all the while harboring evil thoughts within the soul. [:"red"] "And Gideon said unto them, I will not rule over you, neither shall my son rule over you: the LORD shall rule over you.[/] Judges 8:23 KJV If the only ones who find salvation and understand the grace of God are those who have access to the archives of scholarly effort in lost languages, then small indeed is the amount of the remnant who have a prayer for a future. Keep looking up!! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benherndon Posted July 11, 2005 Share Posted July 11, 2005 Quote: Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You are aware that review of the history of the Jews and the Gentiles there was a "separation" much like that of the Whites vs the Blacks in early America. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Was that "separation" or antagonism caused by God's law? If so, please quote the relevant laws from the books of Moses showing that the law required separation or antagonism between Jews and Gentiles. >>>I've shown all this previously. God chose the Israelites and He did not choose other nations. I the human sphere specially exclusion sets up antagonism. You mention that in the Torah the gentile who is allowed to convert to Judaism will be treated as being born into it. Well, yes, and no! But you have to remember hundreds of years happened between the times on the sands of Sinai and after crossing the Jordan R. and the times of Christ----probably close to a thousand or more years. The antagonism between God's chosen people and the gentiles history shows continued throughout those years and was present in Christ's time when Paul was also writing. God chose the Jews as a group and He did not choose anybody else as a group! All Torah, same as the Pentateuch contained some 620 laws. Now I'll show you those laws applied only to the Israelites as a group and it did not include the gentiles as a group. There were exceptions. Exceptions do not make the 'rule'! "Now if you will obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession." Ex 19 "I am the Lord your God who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery." Ex 20 Who else did He bring out of Egyptian slavery? "These are the laws you are to set before them:.."Ex 21 Was he talking about the Canaananites? "You are to be my holy people." Ex 22 "..I will be an enemy of your enemies....the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites...Hivites...Philistines...."Ex 23 These were all gentiles. "I will meet with you and give you all my commands for the Israelites." Ex 25 If God's commands for Israel were for the gentiles He would have said so somewhere. He didn't! That is significant to the mind of normal men and women.' "This is to be a lasting ordinance among the Israelites for the generations to come." Ex 27 "[the Sabbath]will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever..."Ex 31 ?As sign between "Me" and the gentiles?---I don't think so! Do you? [Even though the Israelites became corrupt and 'turned away from Him" He still called them His people.---read about it in Ex 32.] "What else will distinguish me[Moses] and your people from all the other people on the face of the earth?"Ex 33 In the law of the sin offering, Lev 4, read this:"If the whole Israelite community sins unintentionally..." -- Is He speaking a law for the gentiles? "All native-born Israelites are to live in booths so your descendants will know that I had the Israelites live in booths when I brought them out of Egypt. I am the Lord your god."Lev 23 "Your mail and female slaves are to come from the nations [gentiles]around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become you property and can them them slaves for life. but you. must not rule over your fellow Israeltes ruthlessly."Lev 25. Do you see the contrast God set up between the Israelites and the gentiles living with or near them? "These are the commands he Lord gave Moses on Mount Sinai FOR the Israelites." Lev 27 "The Lord made this covenant not with our fathers, but with us, all of us who are alive with us here today." Deut 5:3 "I will take you as my own people, and I will be your God." Ex 6:7 "I will make a distinction between my people and your people." Ex 8:23 "And what other nation is so great as to have such righteous decrees and lawas as this body of laws I am setting before you today?" Deut 4 "Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and taht the Lodr your God brought you out of thre with a mighty hand and an outsretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath Day?" Did God bring any gentiles out of Egypt? "But you stay here with me so that I may give you all the commands, decrees and laws you are to teach thtem to follow in the land I am givnig them to possess." Deut 5 Does that sound like God's laws for the Israelites also were for the gentiles of the world? "Yet the Lord set his affection on your forefathrs and lovd them, and he chose you, their descendants, above all the nations, as it is today." Deut 10 "Remember that you weer slaves in Egypt and the Lord your God redeemed you. That is why I give you this command today. 16 BUT (!) if your servant (usually a gentile)says to you,"I do not want to leave you," because he loves you and and your family and it well off with you,17 then take an awl and push it through his ear lobe into the door, and he will become your servant for life." Deut 15 ---see the contrast between the Jew and the gentile? "However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything taht breathes. Completely destroy them---the Hittities, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites--as the Lord your God has commanded you." Deut 20 And how do you like this one showing the contrast between the Israelites and the gentiles? "When you go to war against your enemies...If you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her you may take her as your wife." Deut 21 This is consistent with God choosing Israel and 'her' laws applicable to her and to gentiles who live among the Israelites. Notice that there is always a contrast between the Israelites and the gentiles. "And the Lord has declared thsi day that you are his people, his treasured possession as he promised, and that you are to keep all his commands." Deut 26 These are from the Torah. There are many others from the remainder of the Bible, OT and NT that support the fact that The Law of Moses was for the Israelites only unless the gentile chose to become like a Jew.. Still even if he became like a Jew he was still of gentile descent UNTIL after the cross. That's the way I understand it---however, if he didn't perchance be always considered of gentile descent and was in every way considered a Jew in the times of Sinai and in the Land of Canaan--after a thousand yrs or more there was still contention between the Jew and the gentile. In Christs time this contention existed as Paul says. Sooo, how can you doubt there was a 'wall' of separation between the Jew and the Gentile compared allegorically in Eph 2 like the granite wall in the Temple of those days which had been erected to keep the gentile 'separated' from the Jew that was not so restrained. Therefore, Paul writes that the Law of Moses, the commandments with their regulations were 'abolished' by His flesh making both gentile and Jew into equal persons before the Lord. Finally, as I've shown before, read Ps 147 and you will find that Psalm saying that only Israel received the Law and decrees---and that Israel is the only nation that did. [Not spelling and grammar corrected.] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benherndon Posted July 11, 2005 Share Posted July 11, 2005 LHC, I guess we are truly wasting each other's time. Far as I can tell we are not on the same frequency. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benherndon Posted July 11, 2005 Share Posted July 11, 2005 New Testament Christians had 'scripture' but it was not in book form and called the New Testament until much later---probably about 600 A.D. according to historians. Christians had what later formally became 'scripture' in the form of the sayings and remembrances of Christ's time, and the letters of Mark, Luke, Paul, Peter, and John. Paul preached Christ's coming and reconciliation while believers were still sinners. It was preached by him and others that forgiveness and salvation was a Gift which they called Grace. It was written that 'the Law's' authority over the believer was replaced by Christ's Law of loving God and Man. The Law was a 'burden' and Christ freed us from that burden and the state of tentatively forgiven [via the sanctuary rituals\] sins and He did away with our sins permanently so they would never be remembered. He reconciled us to the Father while we were still sinners! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benherndon Posted July 11, 2005 Share Posted July 11, 2005 Quote: Ben, you haven't yet shown from Scripture that the Law of Moses created the 'wall' of separation or the enmity between Jews and Gentiles. Quote: Where in the Law of Moses does it talk about such a wall? If the building of that wall is not specified in the Law of Moses (or elsewhere in Scipture), then isn't it a man-made regulation? >>>I think I answered that. There is no outright comment in the Law of Moses about a wall. But there was a 'wall' in the temple in Christ's time and Paul uses that 'wall' to allegorically show that through His death he abolished the commandments with its decrees/regulations which had been a 'wall' of separation between the Jew and the Gentile. The gentiles of Christ's time were kept behind a granite wall in the temple courts beyond which they went on pain of death. The Temple of those days was the seat of all Jewish law. Jewish law was centered around the Sanctuary or Temple. But, of course, it was not the old temple of early Israelite times. I think Herod (who was a Jew) built this one--but I'm not sure. The Most Holy Place was empty but there was a MHP and it was left open on the Day of Atonement so people including gentiles, I read, could see within it from the courtyard somehow. When Paul wrote Ephesians was 1500 yrs after the Jews were on the Sinai desert. So he wrote as matters were practiced in his and Christ's day. Nevertheless. Eph 2 says that "...he has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations." To most people who read the Bible that means exactly what it says. However obviously it doesn't mean that to you and apparently to some other SDAs. It seems pretty clear English to me. Since you don't seem to accept that as it is stated---and that I do, I guess we just will have to differ from each other, won't we? But since you don't believe it says what it does to me, I guess you also have different interpretation of the 2Cor 3, and Col 2 and Gal 3 than I do. Is that correct? How do you interpret Hebrews 8, the last couple of verses? And what about Heb 10:19,20 where He through His flesh abolished the inner curtain? I guess you don't see that the Holy Place has a parallel in the Old Covenant and the Most Holy Place has a parallel in the New Covenant in Heb 9 either. Am I right about your beliefs on these texts? Ben Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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