David_McQueen Posted June 17, 2005 Share Posted June 17, 2005 What the hecky peck is going on? I have looked at this forum this week and seen so many personal attacks, snide remarks and personal jibes between members that actually make me rather ashamed to be a part of this forum. What starts of as a simple conversation descends into this pathetic posturing. I mean come on the banner at the top says CLub Adventist: Where Adventists Fellowship Online. Come on lets have a bit of restraint. Stop posturing about who think they know God, Bible, EGW most and treat each other with an air of respect Sheesh. Who would want to be and Adventist??!! Quote Firstborn Ministries: Spoken and written word, without apology Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Gail Posted June 17, 2005 Administrators Share Posted June 17, 2005 I would like to be an Adventist <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> While I don't enjoy personal attacks, I do like diversity of thought. Philosophies that are different to mine help me to examine just why I believe the way I do Not everyone is so vocal and cutting. What I do like is that although there are misunderstandings, there are also members here who are quick to apologise when they see that something they have said has struck someone negatively. My hats off to these people I'm not sure that we necessarily want to see people change their mindset to suit us better, but there are ways to disagree and still keep a sense of oneness and compassion toward those we are communicating with. I do see that here as well, even if not as much as we all would like I'd like us to keep in mind the goal that Jesus had in mind for His followers, and that is unity. He said that by our love others would know that we are His May the Holy Spirit bring that about however He wishes... May we all be willing to listen Quote Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Gail Posted June 17, 2005 Administrators Share Posted June 17, 2005 What I do like also is the awareness that something is not right with the picture. We expect that there will be difficulties with communication (and attitudes?) out in the world. Am I wrong to presume that Christians should behave differently than those who are unsaved, or is that an unrealistic expectation? Quote Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka Posted June 17, 2005 Share Posted June 17, 2005 Gail, that's a pretty balanced way of looking at it. I can go along with how you think on this matter of group talking at ClubA. Perhaps in some cases the end-time soon coming little tribulation (which we may all here indeed personally experience), unconsciously worries us to some extent. We get trigger gitters and shoot off more potshots at others way to quickly than we should. Perhaps the spirit of discontent with our marriage home-life, or difficulities at the secular job situation, or just being down in the dumps with our personal health problems are getting to us more than we think.We're getting edgy and it's spilling over into online messages. Online we get too sensitive or feel too vunerable to critizism. Maybe we are getting in our personal 3-D world too much critizism so or so. Talking so intense online with others who give us contra so much, is the last straw to our burden and we buckle under. Sometimes we pull down others at the same time using harsh retorts in our defense. We let loose way to quickly some confrontational agressive agumentiveness. Some are feeling better for tough talk. I believe it helps the ego as upboost, somehow. It's as if they have scratched an itch. I'd much rather hug and pet and be hugged and petted. I have my sharp garlic side as well, mind you. But I'm willing to scout around the ones with the acid-indigestion outbursts and look for more pleasant meadows to lie in and pick the buttercups. You'll most likely never catch me joining in any of the World Issues or Theology sector talkings because of having seen much discord. Thanks DavidMcQ, for wanting a more harmonious interaction in discussion and mentioning it. On many occassions I am so happy in a satisfied way on many days when I log on to ClubA. Because of my nice life with Jesus daily where I live. Believe me, if I didn't have all these cautious attitudes to all at ClubA, I would spill over into praising this and that, and giving thanks for him, her, and those. However, I put a veil over my personal life, plus a fence of caution around my opinions, and try to just give as non-confrontational items as possible in small doses because of the many who are really easy to insult and offend. Dragon flaming, character bashing, snake hisssing, or snotty backtalking is not a ClubA trademark. The conservative brethren of the other sda Forums go through tough times of great communicational discomforts as well. Personally, I don't mind letting someone have the last word on a subject. In the Townhall "What should WorldAffair section look like?" thread Stan started, Shane came with a good representation of how he saw the issue in a message just after mine. It was in contrast to what I said like beef-steak is to chocolate ice-cream, or a basketball team of guys is to cheerleaders, or like the contrast between Margret Thacher in service to cartoon gal Marge Simpson in service to her family. I enjoyed and accept what Shane expressed. He is more capable of putting on the armor and charging through a battle. I rather stay in camp and treat the wounded, make the tea and biscuits. He was being himself and sharing his view. I didn't want to add or subtract. Such a case happens lots to where others make statements in threads I at times take part in. I am accepting more than rejecting. I needn't always give a response, I believe. Nor am I wanting to correct or give contra when I don't respond. Turmeric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wicklunds Posted June 17, 2005 Share Posted June 17, 2005 Many of us are, by our apparently neutral and morally higher comments, denying that there is any problem with ourselves. I know good and well that the ones starting certain threads are not ignorant of their divisiveness. Even in the photo threads there was a backhanded attack insinuated through an apparently caring prayer. This represents hypocrisy at its worst. Dennis Quote It is a backsliding church that lessens the distance between itself and the Papacy. {ST, February 19, 1894 par. 4} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka Posted June 17, 2005 Share Posted June 17, 2005 ..in the photo comments? Under the pictures? I missed it. Do divisive people really know they are being divisive? I don't really fully believe that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wicklunds Posted June 17, 2005 Share Posted June 17, 2005 Mirrors often work wonders.... Quote It is a backsliding church that lessens the distance between itself and the Papacy. {ST, February 19, 1894 par. 4} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators LynnDel Posted June 17, 2005 Moderators Share Posted June 17, 2005 Attacks? Divisiveness? I don't see it here at all, and I'm here at least three times a day. But then, I'm very careful about which threads I read and have discerned which I should avoid. I may miss a lot, but I have peace. <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/seenoevil.gif" alt="" /> LD (where is the icon of the ostrich with its head stuck in the sand?) Quote LD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted June 17, 2005 Share Posted June 17, 2005 Quote: Attacks? Divisiveness? I don't see it here at all, and I'm here at least three times a day. Lyndell, you are a very safe person to converse with. You have that special ability to tell others what is wrong without being divisive or attacking another. Perhaps that is the special ability of teachers in general... And where is the icon of the ostrich with its head stuck in the sand? Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
there buster Posted June 17, 2005 Share Posted June 17, 2005 Quote: Am I wrong to presume that Christians should behave differently than those who are unsaved, or is that an unrealistic expectation? Notice how quickly this discussion is dying down, now that the "objectionable point of view" is no longer voiced. Christine was not the abuser, she was the abused. And notice how quickly the abusers move on to abuse others and make more trouble. The problem hasn't even been addressed yet, much less remedied. The abusers are certain they represent God. That's why "all is permitted." It has been so since the first day I found this forum. The remedy is relatively simple. Unitl it is applied, Gresham's law will continue to thin out the posters. Quote “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wicklunds Posted June 18, 2005 Share Posted June 18, 2005 Quote It is a backsliding church that lessens the distance between itself and the Papacy. {ST, February 19, 1894 par. 4} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyberGuy Posted June 18, 2005 Share Posted June 18, 2005 Quote: I have looked at this forum this week and seen so many personal attacks, snide remarks and personal jibes between members that actually make me rather ashamed to be a part of this forum. We are heading into the GC session. Historically you are going to see a lot more of the same between conservatives and liberals on this forum who believe the other side is heading our church in the wrong direction. A month after the GC Session things gets back to normal. Quote Riverside CA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyberGuy Posted June 18, 2005 Share Posted June 18, 2005 Quote: It has been so since the first day I found this forum. The remedy is relatively simple. Unitl it is applied, Gresham's law will continue to thin out the posters. Never heard of Gresham's law? What is it? Quote Riverside CA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted June 18, 2005 Moderators Share Posted June 18, 2005 Dave, you responded after a post of mine in another thread in a way that made me think you had read it as one of the kind of attacking posts you're talking about here. I really, really neither intended it to be, nor could even see that in it on a re-read. One of the problems is the lack of body language and tone in forum posts, and the other is that it's possible your reply wasn't to my message at all and I was confused by the structure of the forum. I agree with your concern, and believe the only solution that will *really* work is individual self-control and constraint. The list of 'fruit of the spirit' is a pretty rigorous filter for posts, and I'm going to try to read it before posting, particularly when I feel angry. We could edit heavily, but that just tends to lead to debate about the neutrality of the editing: each person taking responsibility for their own posts is really the only approach that will work. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
there buster Posted June 18, 2005 Share Posted June 18, 2005 Bad money drives out good. Quote “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyberGuy Posted June 18, 2005 Share Posted June 18, 2005 That is the problem with writing posts is that one cannot see the body language or the tone of the voice. I read the posts in question and I think that egos and feelings were hurt but I have seen worse done to others over the years. I left that thread in question because the tone was getting very defensive and angry. It was a hot topic and there would never be a coming together of the minds or a compromise on that issue. I said my peace and left the thread. Others would do well to do likewise in the future when a thread gets to heated. Quote Riverside CA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
there buster Posted June 18, 2005 Share Posted June 18, 2005 Quote: We could edit heavily, but that just tends to lead to debate about the neutrality of the editing: each person taking responsibility for their own posts is really the only approach that will work. The problem here is not significantly different from an elementary school classroom. There, too, individuals taking responsibility is the only ultimate remedy. But, in both cases, people need to be taught what is and is not acceptable. When that is done consistently, people quickly straighten up, and an abusive environment becomes one conducive to constructive discussion and debate. What astonishes me is that only once have I seen a clear correction made-- not concerning the content of an opinion, but about the inappropriate way it was expressed-- and that was made by a poster, not a moderator. Although, to his credit, the moderator (Gregory) endorsed the correction. What makes this an unsafe place has nothing to do with the beliefs expressed, but rather with the freedom some feel to impugn the motives and character of other posters. This leads to confusion, so that "I find no evidence for your position" is deemed abusive, while, "you are brutal" is considered O.K. That's the problem. Even some moderators have engaged in this sort of behavior. Why does this happen? I really don't understand why persons of otherwise apparent good judgment get mixed up in this. But I have a guess. We know, for example, that children who torture animals are very likely to grow up to be cruel to other people, as well. It appears to me that the freedom some feel to engage in evil surmising and all sorts of personal attacks on political figures, and on political topics, transfers to everything else. After all, if I can (righteously) attack someone who's not here, why can't I attack someone who is here? Cut out the "righteous attacks" and things would calm down sufficiently. Since certain moderators have such strong political opinions, this blinds them to the unfair attacks on some public figures. And once the line of abuse is crossed in political discussions, it's easy to lose track of. It's a lot like Giuliani cracking down on small crime in MYC. It changes the atmosphere and the expectations. But that would require restraint on the part of some moderators, and on some of their favorite posters, which would not be popular at all in the short run. Of course people want to debate the fairness of the editing, and within bounds, that's fair game. You state the rules, and you enforce them. It's pretty simple to distinguish between, "that reasoning makes no sense," and "you're an idiot!" In the long run, you'd have a much more vibrant community. Quote “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wicklunds Posted June 18, 2005 Share Posted June 18, 2005 virtue is better than vice...but God being removed...well... Quote It is a backsliding church that lessens the distance between itself and the Papacy. {ST, February 19, 1894 par. 4} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted June 19, 2005 Share Posted June 19, 2005 Quote: Turmeric said: Gail, that's a pretty balanced way of looking at it. I can go along with how you think on this matter of group talking at ClubA. Perhaps in some cases the end-time soon coming little tribulation (which we may all here indeed personally experience), unconsciously worries us to some extent. We get trigger gitters and shoot off more potshots at others way to quickly than we should. Perhaps the spirit of discontent with our marriage home-life, or difficulities at the secular job situation, or just being down in the dumps with our personal health problems are getting to us more than we think.We're getting edgy and it's spilling over into online messages. Online we get too sensitive or feel too vunerable to critizism. Maybe we are getting in our personal 3-D world too much critizism so or so. Talking so intense online with others who give us contra so much, is the last straw to our burden and we buckle under. Sometimes we pull down others at the same time using harsh retorts in our defense. All very astute observations. Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 a smile and friendly wave to you, Nicodema. There are so many varied reasons for dismaying others by the various people posting posts that directly or inadvertently cause others to get offended by. I don't want to reject writers on CA so swiftly without first giving thought to what could be causing their discomfort. What could be in their mind leading to some disgruntled message tones. I personally really want to curb responding in kind with offense right off when reading words goading me. I want to react on Christian principle if stating a correction based on my personal convictions. I won't debate what I say, ...just leave it there to be taken or ignored. I have grown stronger with my beliefs during these last years in a sharper way of viewing Jesus. I am stronger now in accepting that Jesus can so lead us children of God to respond as Jesus would to confrontations or stressful situations in human interaction. I truly believe that we don't have to give into temptation to sin of breaking one of God's commandments. That He does have a way of escape which he has promised for each trial or temptation. It's not so much theory as before because of the happenings I went through in the last years. Turmeric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 Gresham's law (From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) Gresham's law is stated as: "Bad money drives good money out of circulation". Gresham's law applies specifically when there are two forms of commodity money in circulation which are forced, by the application of legal tender laws, to be respected as having the same face value in the marketplace. It is named after Sir Thomas Gresham, an English financier in Tudor times. Read More About It Here Other observable laws : Godwin's law - As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one. Coined by Mike Godwin in 1990. Holmes' Law - After eliminating the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, is the truth. From Sherlock Holmes. Murphy's law - If anything can go wrong, it will or If it can happen, it will happen. Ascribed to Edward A. Murphy, Jr. Okrent's law - The pursuit of balance can create imbalance because sometimes something is true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 Quote: Turmeric said: I personally really want to curb responding in kind with offense right off when reading words goading me. I want to react on Christian principle if stating a correction based on my personal convictions. I won't debate what I say, ...just leave it there to be taken or ignored. That is how I feel too, but I frequently fall short of that. I recognize I am too easily provoked -- not really to anger so much as to defensiveness -- and there are a few things that push my buttons, so to speak, fairly predictably. But I know I can't wait for others to stop goading me; I must keep working on my responses myself. Hopefully I have improved some, but I still have a ways to go! Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasd Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 >>Gresham's law is stated as: "Bad money drives good money out of circulation".<< Gresham's law... has migrated from original application and entered the informal language of everyday colloquialism. When used as such, Gresham’s law, as colloquialism, reflects elitism. Utilized strictly, and as originally formulated, it relates to monetary theories. Even under those best of circumstances, it is now considered (without its negative semantic orientation) --simplistic. Speaking of negative… the informal Gresham’s law conveys roughly that ‘cream rises to the top, the rest separates as whey (--suitable for chickens and hogs). However, on that note… cream, properly amended, is often whipped into an airy Chantilly froth. ;-) That said, it appears unlikely that it was put forward negatively, as it was put forward by one obviously and actively posting…, not having been ‘driven out’. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 Quote: Turmeric said: Okrent's law - The pursuit of balance can create imbalance because sometimes something is true. Closely related is one of Nico's laws: "It is sometimes necessary to balance one's balance with imbalance." Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted June 21, 2005 Administrators Share Posted June 21, 2005 Quote: jasd said: ...‘cream rises to the top, the rest separates as whey (--suitable for chickens and hogs). However, on that note… cream, properly amended, is often whipped into an airy Chantilly froth. ;-)... I rather like the amusing implications of that further thought... My typical rejoinder to the smug "cream rises to the top" idea is the deflating "Yes, but so does scum." Tom Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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