This is getting out of hand

[Guest]

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jasd said:

>>Gresham's law is stated as:

"Bad money drives good money out of circulation".<<

Gresham's law... has migrated from original application and entered the informal language of everyday colloquialism. When used as such, Gresham’s law, as colloquialism, reflects elitism. Utilized strictly, and as originally formulated, it relates to monetary theories. Even under those best of circumstances,

it is now considered (without its negative semantic orientation) --simplistic. Speaking of negative…

the informal Gresham’s law conveys roughly that

‘cream rises to the top, the rest separates as whey (--suitable for chickens and hogs). However, on that note…

cream, properly amended, is often whipped into an airy Chantilly froth.

;-)

That said, it appears unlikely that it was put forward negatively, as it was put forward by one obviously and actively posting…, not having been ‘driven out’.

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Jasd as a toddler growing up & the absent of a highchair you must have sat on two Daniel Webesters at the table with grown ups. It is either that or you are on horseback as you type. I only get about 7 words out of 10 from your post & I have a feeling that a Philladelphia lawyer may only understand one more.

[Nicodema]

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Tom Wetmore said:

My typical rejoinder to the smug "cream rises to the top" idea is the deflating "Yes, but so does scum."

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BWAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH!!!!!

That is priceless!

[Gail]

Yes, I was looking at the quote, then at Tom's sharkey face and I smiled inwardly to myself

[cardw]

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BWAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH!!!!!

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I think Nico has the right idea.

Maybe we might take ourselves a little less seriously and have a sense of humor around some of our childishness.

There is a deep spirituality in humor. I think Jesus used humor quite often.

I think we will all look back on dialog here and have some good laughs about how serious we all were.

Richard

[jasd]

>>My typical rejoinder to the smug "cream rises to the top" idea is the deflating "Yes, but so does scum."<<

[edited by Bravus: jasd read the 'smug' in the above sentence as referring to him, which I'm pretty sure was not Tom's intended meaning, and responded rather strongly - one piece of the response was great, though:]

Those most deserving respect for the way they handle linguistics and thought are regularly posting -- not having been ‘driven out’. That would, of course, include you.

[Guest]

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cardw said:

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BWAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH!!!!!

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I think Nico has the right idea.

Maybe we might take ourselves a little less seriously and have a sense of humor around some of our childishness.

There is a deep spirituality in humor. I think Jesus used humor quite often.

I think we will all look back on dialog here and have some good laughs about how serious we all were.

Richard

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To be truthful, I think Tom could have said "pure water" and had people ROFLOL.

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Yes Jesus must have smiled when he made a few of the animals we see in the wild. There are a few funny ones on the blacktop as well.

[Tom Wetmore]

(To Bravus, no editing was necessary, as I didn't read the original verbiage that way. But if I was being dense, my rejoinder was in no way directed at anyone here...)

[edited by Bravus - response to something that has itself been edited out]

In keeping with my predominate juvenile and sophomoric side an admonition for us all - "Yo, lighten up dudes!!!"

Tom

[wicklunds]

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Ed White said:

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Jasd as a toddler growing up & the absent of a highchair you must have sat on two Daniel Webesters at the table with grown ups. It is either that or you are on horseback as you type. I only get about 7 words out of 10 from your post & I have a feeling that a Philladelphia lawyer may only understand one more.

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Ed,

I've been through this with him already and the man(?) doesnt care to get out of the saddle (if you know what I mean). It might be better just to let the water bead up and trickle of the tips off your feathers. Have you ever had an inquisitive child come up to you and keep asking why, why, why, after every response you gave? After a while you get the feeling that even if you were to go over the same thing it would be as if you have never covered it before. This might apply here too.

[wicklunds]

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cardw said:

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BWAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH!!!!!

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I think Nico has the right idea.

Maybe we might take ourselves a little less seriously and have a sense of humor around some of our childishness.

There is a deep spirituality in humor. I think Jesus used humor quite often.

I think we will all look back on dialog here and have some good laughs about how serious we all were.

Richard

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Well...

I think we might all look back in horror and think how way off the mark we had to have been. Not to say a sense of humor is a bad thing...

[jasd]

Re: the editing by Bravus...

>>jasd read the 'smug' in the above sentence as referring to him,…<<

That is incorrect. I read ‘smug’ as bearing upon

“ "cream rises to the top" idea” ”

>>…responded rather strongly…<<

I thought I responded temperately, with measure, and rather charmingly. However, I understand your deletion of aspects of my post, as I surmise that you’ve taken the cut of Tom’s and my jibs.

[jasd]

Ah, c’mon Ed, don’t lay incomprehensibility to every one on this list. The subject and antecedent for this current line of posts --is Gresham’s law -- two elements, one good and the other bad. To develop a metaphor upon that --necessitates that it correlates. Scum and whatever it is that floats it are both elements that derive from the befouled and deleterious; there is lacking the necessary two elements --good and bad. To posit the two necessary and contrastive elements in scum/and whatever it is that floats it, one needs resort to inventiveness for a still yet, --implausible construct. Otherwise,

the metaphor fails. Given that

and supposing that one is facile with language (let’s say, a lawyer), for that person to put forward a ‘scum’ remark tandem that of ‘cream’ vis-à-vis that of Gresham’s law, --is implicitly delivering an egregious and not-so-subtle-slam. More is the pity if that person aspires to gravitas.

>>To be truthful, I think Tom could have said "pure water" and had people ROFLOL.<<

Not understanding your motivation…, nevertheless, I take your meaning.

As to humor: There is laughter, and there is blowin’ smoke… capice?

[jasd]

>>"Yo, lighten up dudes!!!"<<

Exactly.

[jasd]

>>This might apply here too.<<

Blimy mate! You do go on…

Here’s what I do. I keep several dictionaries nearby. I’ve downloaded ‘Your Dictionary’, which drops a window for any word I highlight for meaning (takes seconds). Or I paste to Google and in a fraction of a second I have displayed ten URLs upon which one will probably use the word I’ve pasted --in context (if Google proves obstinate, I add vernacular* or dictionary* to the search window -- works every time).

*Your Word Program or your Workpad should have an ‘auto correct’ feature in your ‘tools’ tab. Make an ‘auto correct’ code for vernacular or dictionary using a double tap on the ‘full stop (period)’ tab on your keyboard (or any other ‘tab/code’ you’d wish to use [each correction/substitution needs its own 'tab/code'). Thereafter,

you won’t even have to type vernacular or dictionary in the Google window, just double-tap your ‘full stop (period)’ tab/code or whatever other tab/code you’ve programmed into your auto correct feature.

If ye’ve the ken, ev’rythin’s roses and duck soup.

PS I've not auto-corrected anything in awhile, so it might behoove you to double-check with someone else...

[cardw]

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I think we might all look back in horror and think how way off the mark we had to have been. Not to say a sense of humor is a bad thing...

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Come on Dennis we are talking about using big words. I think I might reserve horror for something slightly more traumatic. LOL

I have to belly laugh when I see all the energy going into these discussions. When I step back and look at the world and the suffering out there, all this seems so childish. And I'm laughing at myself, too. I get caught up in trivia as well.

There was a great article in Spectrum along this line. It was a satire on Adventist values. There was a national competition to have each school present something on an important issue. Stanford had a wonderful presentation on World Hunger. Yale presented something on poverty and how financial rules kept third world countries dependent. Harvard had presentations on how conservation would save resources and money. The stadium was silent when La Sierra (You can substitute any Adventist college you want here) came out with their presentation. In large letters on the field was the word SHORTS. Everyone wondered what this could mean. Was it an acronym for some great idea? Could it be some clever play on words to reveal some great truth? Was it a protest on the elitism of trying to solve world problems?

No, it was a protest of the college dress code.

This is fictitious, but I think it illustrates much of our internal silliness. As the world dialogs and faces great problems, we argue about the state of the dead, the Sabbath, the nature of Christ, Ellen White, the Sanctuary, etc. etc. Most of these are so culturally bound that the world outside generally responds with "Huh?" Not that we need to get all worked up over world problems either.

Anyway, it gives me a big chuckle. We are such little children.

Richard

[LifeHiscost]

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Nicodema said:

but I still have a ways to go!

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I saw this bumpersticker. Is it familiar to you?

[:"brown"] "We're not perfect. Just forgiven." [/]

Praise God.

[:"red"] "Examine and test and evaluate your own selves to see whether you are holding to your faith and showing the proper fruits of it. Test and prove yourselves [ not Christ]. Do you not yourselves realize and know [thoroughly by an ever-increasing experience] that Jesus Christ is in you--unless you are [counterfeits] disapproved on trial and rejected?" [/] 2 Corinthians 13:5 AMP

[Guest]

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LifeHiscost said:

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Nicodema said:

but I still have a ways to go!

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I saw this bumpersticker. Is it familiar to you?

[:"brown"] "We're not perfect. Just forgiven." [/]

Praise God.

[:"red"] "Examine and test and evaluate your own selves to see whether you are holding to your faith and showing the proper fruits of it. Test and prove yourselves [ not Christ]. Do you not yourselves realize and know [thoroughly by an ever-increasing experience] that Jesus Christ is in you--unless you are [counterfeits] disapproved on trial and rejected?" [/] 2 Corinthians 13:5 AMP

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I think there is a big difference between "the faith" [KJV] and "your faith" [AMP] If I was to "examine myself" by my own faith or the faith of another mortal, I could end up in ya-ya land like others. No it is "THE FAITH" of Jesus that hurting people need.

"Examine yourselves", whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?” 2Cor.13:5

According to the bible if one “examines yourselves” by using any old yardstick you will be in the group heaven considers “reprobates”.

[wicklunds]

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cardw said:

Come on Dennis we are talking about using big words. I think I might reserve horror for something slightly more traumatic. LOL

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What could be more traumatic than to witness firsthand the cold and steady apostasy from the truth delivered through a prophet of the Lords own choosing? The Testimonies are made of no effect because Israel has stoned the one sent to her.

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cardw said:

I have to belly laugh when I see all the energy going into these discussions. When I step back and look at the world and the suffering out there, all this seems so childish. And I'm laughing at myself, too. I get caught up in trivia as well.

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Here here!! But while you might be belly laughing, the souls reading your posts might only be gathering strength with which to resist the calling and witness of the Lord. But you are right, most of the posts on this forum would qualify as childish and impertinent drivel. Sad indeed. Maybe we should be sighing and crying rather than belly laughing aye? The trivia might be better left for Alex Trebek. That is his specialty, what is yours?

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cardw said:

There was a great article in Spectrum along this line. It was a satire on Adventist values. There was a national competition to have each school present something on an important issue. Stanford had a wonderful presentation on World Hunger. Yale presented something on poverty and how financial rules kept third world countries dependent. Harvard had presentations on how conservation would save resources and money. The stadium was silent when La Sierra (You can substitute any Adventist college you want here) came out with their presentation. In large letters on the field was the word SHORTS. Everyone wondered what this could mean. Was it an acronym for some great idea? Could it be some clever play on words to reveal some great truth? Was it a protest on the elitism of trying to solve world problems? No, it was a protest of the college dress code.

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Leave it to Spectrum to throw mud all over traditional SDA values. If I were to cite one publication that has given more fuel for needless controversy over the span of its tenure, it would be this one. Likely you knew my heart on this because our striving seems constant and evident for all to see. Our colleges will be the first thing to go when our denomination wakes up out of its worldly slumber, mark my words. If there was an honest soul in the upper echelons of leadership, the SDA college curriculae would be seriously altered or jettisoned altogether. This much I know. The dress codes, or lack of them, are the lesser of our worries now. It is the spurious theological teachings that I would have a greater burden over.

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cardw said:

This is fictitious, but I think it illustrates much of our internal silliness. As the world dialogs and faces great problems, we argue about the state of the dead, the Sabbath, the nature of Christ, Ellen White, the Sanctuary, etc. etc. Most of these are so culturally bound that the world outside generally responds with "Huh?" Not that we need to get all worked up over world problems either.

Anyway, it gives me a big chuckle. We are such little children.

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Honestly Richard, I care about your soul as much as I care about my own son's. I must tell you that your cavalier attitude about our church makes me wonder why you even bother being a part of it. What effect does your presence have on your local congregation? Do they feel the same? If everyone felt, spoke, and acted as you do on these critical areas, would the SDA Church even exist? I seriously doubt it.

Dennis

[Tom Wetmore]

jasd,

With a heavy sigh, I say that it seems that while you and I were essentially on the same wave length and communicating rather effectively, respectfully and without any apparent rancor, we seem to have been misperceived by others of more delicate, if not misplace, sensibilities. As the pendulum swings from one extreme to another we either have too little or too much of what seems rather and now even more obviously, essential in discussions around here - moderation - in every sense of the word.

Having read what you posted before it was edited, I had responded simultaneously to the moderator edit and then had to back track twice as that edit was further refined. But my desire and effort to nonetheless communicate in rapid revisionary mode was further frustrated and eliminated. All this seems to have confirmed your original choice of descriptive wording which has just been expressed by Richard....

Oh well...

Tom

[Bravus]

Gently but firmly: complaints about moderation should be done privately by PM or e-mail, not publicly in the forum. I'm letting Tom's comments above stand because they are an attempt at reconciliation, but people need to understand that I will be trying to moderate more actively for the next little while, and should avoid public complaints.

[Tom Wetmore]

Well stated Richard! The fictional Spectrum illustration echoes Tony Campolo's real life effort to drive home the point of seriously skewed priorities and majoring in minors so prevalent on religious school campuses. (Sadly we Adventists are not so much alone in this increasingly full boat of zealous religious fundametalism... But I digress...) He would get up and begin his talk by reciting the horrifying (properly in perspective and use, I think...) statistics on world hunger and the millions of children starving to death every year. He would then exclaim, "And most of you here just don't give a SH_ _!" After a pregnant and uncomfortable pause, he would continue by saying, "And I am here to tell you that many, if not most, of you are far more upset that I just used a bad word than you are about the truly obscene realities of world hunger of which I just spoke! Now let's get serious about priorities..." The irony is that Campolo ultimately stopped this approach as more often than not he would get a frosty letter of reprimand from college administration for his use of vulgarities, with not so much as a faint acknowledgment of his point or the horrific realities of thousands of children starving to death every single day.

Very much in keeping with Jesus' speck in the eye illustration...

Tom

[Nicodema]

All I can say is AMEN TO THAT.

For many, priorities definitely need reshuffling.

[cardw]

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Well stated Richard! The fictional Spectrum illustration echoes Tony Campolo's real life effort to drive home the point of seriously skewed priorities and majoring in minors so prevalent on religious school campuses. (Sadly we Adventists are not so much alone in this increasingly full boat of zealous religious fundametalism... But I digress...)

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He did an interesting survey in which he asked people at secular universities what they thought about Jesus and universally the response was positive. Things like loving, forgiving, kind, understanding, etc.

He asked the same group of people what they thought about Christian evangelicals and the response was quite the opposite. Angry, vindictive, judgemental, bigots, unforgiving, cruel, etc.

One has to wonder why Jesus and those who follow him get the opposite reaction.

Richard

[Guest]

I think the author of this magazine article comes under the heading that when one asks a dumb question they get a dumb answer! Seventh day Adventist calling is not the same as that of the world. The ONLY reason SDA were raised up as a denominated people is because the other Protestant church had failed to break all the shackles with Rome, mainly in the conferring of degrees in education.This small company obtained their docrtines in all night prayer meeting and grew quite rapidly and in addition to their being divinely guided in their personal and united search for truth, the priceless gift of the Spirit of prophecy was given for counsel, warning, and instruction in the gigantic task that lay before them of preparing the world for the coming of Jesus. They were entrusted with a vast mine of precious truths and new light was constantly being unfolded to them as they went forward with the sacred work of the Advent movement. The movement was unmistakably ordained of God and was to continue until the culmination of all things in the great second Advent, and the little company who were entrusted with it felt highly but solemnly honored.

True to his former cunning, when the devil saw that this was really the work of God he determined to hinder it in every way possible by putting into operation the strategy that had proved so successful with God's people in other ages. Consequently, many who had begun so zealously to carry forward the work God had entrusted to them, lost their first love, became careless and indifferent, and as their vital connection with Christ was broken they began to lean toward the world and be influenced by its spirit. In an effort to check this evil trend, God sent as early as 1852 through the Spirit of prophecy, a message of rebuke and warning. This was the first record we have of the giving of the Laodicean message and the results were very disappointing.

[cardw]

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cardw said:

Come on Dennis we are talking about using big words. I think I might reserve horror for something slightly more traumatic. LOL

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What could be more traumatic than to witness firsthand the cold and steady apostasy from the truth delivered through a prophet of the Lords own choosing? The Testimonies are made of no effect because Israel has stoned the one sent to her.

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Well, I think you are off topic here, since we were talking about the use of big words. Your reliance on Our Lady of Eternal Responsiblity is evident here.

Since we are talking about incomprehensiblity here I would note that if I were to read your response above to anyone outside the Adventist faith and many within, they would respond with, "What is he talking about?"

I am ashamed to say that I do know what you are talking about, but if I had to explain it to someone, the amount of background information I would have to give could take several college courses. LOL

This stuff is so irrelevant and trivial.

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Leave it to Spectrum to throw mud all over traditional SDA values.

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Dennis, the one's protesting SHORTS are the liberal Adventists traditionally. Its a satire on "liberal" values.

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Likely you knew my heart on this because our striving seems constant and evident for all to see.

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Dennis, you might want to note that you strive with almost everyone you dialog with. I'm one of the few that bothers to keep dialoging with you, even though you acuse me of being on the side of Satan, imply and state motives that I do not have, judge my character, and insult me in almost every post you direct toward me.

I'm not complaining, just stating what seems to be obvious.

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Honestly Richard, I care about your soul as much as I care about my own son's. I must tell you that your cavalier attitude about our church makes me wonder why you even bother being a part of it.

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Well, I could ask you why are you a part of a church who "If there was an honest soul in the upper echelons of leadership, the SDA college curriculae would be seriously altered or jettisoned altogether." You obviously don't believe there is an honest soul in the leadership. Are you saying that you should be put in charge? Or are you saying that God hasn't put the right people in charge?

Why are you part of a church that has "spurious theological teachings?" Do you see yourself as the great reformer of the Adventist Church?

I am not cavalier toward honesty. You may judge my motives as something evil. I have no illusions that the SDA church organization is going to change all that much. I have no illusions that what I say or don't say is really that life altering in the long run.

I'm learning and working through this as honestly as i can. I understand where you are coming from, though you may not believe it. And while I won't say that I love you as much as my own son, because that wouldn't be true, I do empathize with your struggles.

I know you are facing the uncertainty of finding a job and the prospect of paying school loans, with the responsibilities of a family. I don't care what your theology is, I support your efforts to provide the best for your family. I also support your efforts to deepen your spiritual walk.

And I have no desire to silence your voice or views.

Richard

[wicklunds]

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cardw said:

Well, I think you are off topic here, since we were talking about the use of big words. Your reliance on Our Lady of Eternal Responsiblity is evident here.

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Listen now, I am not going to tell you what to believe, but I think that there is a weight of responsibility on the SDA believer to trust that the Lord has lead in the past through the prophet Ellen White. Does that make her Jesus Christ? Of course not!! You speak as though I look upon her as a Catholic might look upon Mary. Is this a fair comparison? Do I pray to Ellen White, or see Ellen White apparitions?

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cardw said:

Since we are talking about incomprehensiblity here I would note that if I were to read your response above to anyone outside the Adventist faith and many within, they would respond with, "What is he talking about?"

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And then I would ask them if they have read any of the Testimonies lately and they would ask, What are the Testimonies?

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cardw said:

I am ashamed to say that I do know what you are talking about, but if I had to explain it to someone, the amount of background information I would have to give could take several college courses. LOL

This stuff is so irrelevant and trivial.

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I suppose to the average SDA pew-warmer it might seem trivial, but I feel compelled to give a warning that the Lord has impressed upon my heart to not withhold on pain of my brothers blood being required at my hand.

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cardw said:

Dennis, you might want to note that you strive with almost everyone you dialog with. I'm one of the few that bothers to keep dialoging with you, even though you acuse me of being on the side of Satan, imply and state motives that I do not have, judge my character, and insult me in almost every post you direct toward me.

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The SOP says that in these last days every man's hand will be against his brother. Is it any wonder the four winds are getting ready to burst forth? Like I said though, I care about your own soul, or I would not feel so energized to give advice contrary to the direction I see your posts taking you.

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cardw said:

Well, I could ask you why are you a part of a church who "If there was an honest soul in the upper echelons of leadership, the SDA college curriculae would be seriously altered or jettisoned altogether." You obviously don't believe there is an honest soul in the leadership. Are you saying that you should be put in charge? Or are you saying that God hasn't put the right people in charge?

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There is just no other church that believes and teaches the keeping of the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus like this one. Even though I havent seen much upholding of the law around these parts, I still believe this church is the one God is leading. There is a modern Babylon, and a modern Israel. Have you found that the Lord has been leading the SDA Church as He did literal Israel of old? I believe it to be spiritual Israel.

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cardw said:

Why are you part of a church that has "spurious theological teachings?" Do you see yourself as the great reformer of the Adventist Church?

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The spurious teachings are not of the historic SDA movement Richard. This is my concern: that our colleges are leading our members astray, and bearing a false testimony about the SDA end-time message...

Oh, and should I elevate myself into a seat of prime importance and proclaim myself a great reformer? When did Martin Luther do this? Wycliffe? Huss? others? And where is your Protest my friend? Do you have a message of hope for lost souls? An interpretation of the great whore sitting on the scarlet beast in Rev. 17:3? C'mon now, lets hear it Richard...The SDA denomination was formed for things such as this. Take it or leave it. As for me and my house...

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cardw said:

I am not cavalier toward honesty. You may judge my motives as something evil. I have no illusions that the SDA church organization is going to change all that much. I have no illusions that what I say or don't say is really that life altering in the long run.

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I am only judging what has passed from your fingertips to the forum message threads. A man is known by his fruits. His words proceed from his heart.

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cardw said:

I'm learning and working through this as honestly as i can. I understand where you are coming from, though you may not believe it. And while I won't say that I love you as much as my own son, because that wouldn't be true, I do empathize with your struggles.

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You might understand where I am coming from, but there is little agreement between us on religious, doctrinal, and lifestyle issues. That should prompt us toward reconciliation, but not through compromising of conviction. Why is it we are at each other's throats then? Something is drastically wrong with this picture.

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cardw said:

I know you are facing the uncertainty of finding a job and the prospect of paying school loans, with the responsibilities of a family. I don't care what your theology is, I support your efforts to provide the best for your family. I also support your efforts to deepen your spiritual walk.

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Yes, times are tough, but I have prayed, and I believe that God is more faithful than any human and will answer my prayers soon. I have already had many call backs from applications and interviews. Praise the Lord whether I die from starvation or strike gold tomorrow. Thank you for your support.

Dennis