This is getting out of hand

[Clio]

Of Course you don't Dennis. If you did, you wouldn't be at odds with most everyone here.

What Gregory is trying to say, is apocalyptic beating of people over the head with Daniel and Revelation doesn't teach them the love, forgiveness, longing to save, Jesus that walked this earth and is the One Who desires they should live forever.

You don't feed new converts or baby Christians on the meat of Daniel and Revelation. You feed them on the milk of the gospel. That's love, joy, faith, Jesus, answers to prayer, Heaven, how to pray in ways pleasing to Abba Father, forgiveness of sin.

Mishandling the gospel might produce stomache upset for a while, spiritually speaking. But trying to feed them too soon with the meat of the Bible, will not just cause upset, it can kill them spiritually.

This is such an important concept Paul specified it twice. Once in 1 Corinthians and once in Hebrews. Here are the quotes.

Dear brothers and sisters,* when I was with you I couldn't talk to you as I would to mature Christians. I had to talk as though you belonged to this world or as though you were infants in the Christian life.* 2 I had to feed you with milk and not with solid food, because you couldn't handle anything stronger. And you still aren't ready, 3 for you are still controlled by your own sinful desires. You are jealous of one another and quarrel with each other. Doesn't that prove you are controlled by your own desires? You are acting like people who don't belong to the Lord. 1 Corinthians 3:1-3.

Paul is making it very clear that one starts baby Christians on the milk of the Gospel and keeps them there, until they are READY for stronger meat.

The second quote is from Hebrews 5:12-14 12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. 14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

This demonstrates that there is no set time limit for someone to need milk instead of the meat of the spiritual life. Even those who should be teachers, can still be in need of the milk rather than the meat.

Clio

[wicklunds]

Yeah, and it is because some insist on a diet of only milk all the time that our church will continue to have folks fall away after baptisms from evangelistic series. You don't keep a baby on "milk" very long. You ween them within a year after birth. So don't give me this milk analogy stuff. We are a church of infant-wannabees who insist on wearing diapers until we have one foot in the grave. Not a good idea at all.

Dennis

[Guest]

"If those who have been in the church for weeks and months have not learned the straightness of the way, and what it is to be Christians, and can not hear all the straight truths of the word of God, it were better that they were cut off from Israel. It is too late in the day to feed with milk. If souls, a month or two old in the truth, who are about to enter the time of trouble such as never was, can not hear all the straight truth, or endure the strong meat of the straightness of the way, how will they stand in the day of battle? Truths that we have been years learning must be learned in a few months by those who now embrace the Third Angel's Message....There is no need of milk after souls are convinced of the truth. As soon as the conviction of truth is yielded to and the heart willing, the truth should have its effect, the truth will work like leaven, and purify and purge away the passions of the natural heart. It is a disgrace for those who have been in the truth for years to talk of feeding souls who have been months in the truth, upon milk. It shows they know little of the leadings of the Spirit of the Lord, and realize not the time we are living in. Those who embrace the truth now will have to step fast. There will have to be a breaking up of heart before the Lord, a rending of heart, and not the garment." Manuscript Releases, vol 1, p 33-34 (Manuscript 1, February 12, 1854).

[Clio]

And that is entirely different than bringing someone to Jesus. All children grow at different rates. Not all babies wean at a year of age.

And what makes you think a year for a physical baby should also be a year for a spiritual baby? And who are you to make that decision? That's not your call. That's Jesus call, and the Spirit's call, and Their work in the wooing of hearts.

We are called to sow the seed, not bring in the harvest. The harvest is not yet gathered.

Clio

[LifeHiscost]

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Nicodema said:

By no means did I mean to imply parenting was a simplistic cakewalk!

---

[:"red"] "Train up a child in the way he should go, And when he is old he will not depart from it.

" [/] Proverbs 22:6 NKJV

"When he is old" seems to indicate a reasonable probability that during the youthful years, there may be more of a tendency to "go over fools hill".

[cardw]

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If those who have been in the church for weeks and months have not learned the straightness of the way, and what it is to be Christians, and can not hear all the straight truths of the word of God, it were better that they were cut off from Israel.

---

This is really pretty toxic stuff. Basically she is saying that it is better to be cut off than to go on not hearing these so called straight truths. This doesn't really make sense because cutting someone off pretty much guarantees they won't be hearing any straight truth.

Maybe she is right, it would be better to be cut off than to endure all her lecturing. LOL

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If souls, a month or two old in the truth, who are about to enter the time of trouble such as never was, can not hear all the straight truth, or endure the strong meat of the straightness of the way, how will they stand in the day of battle? Truths that we have been years learning must be learned in a few months by those who now embrace the Third Angel's Message...

---

One should note the date of this "counsel." It is 1854. James and Ellen White were still setting dates for Christ's return until 1851. It then transitioned into very soon. And this is one of the false prophecies she made about those still alive. She was saying that Jesus would still come within her lifetime and those who were in the church. This is very evident in this passage. She states that these truths needed to be learned in a few months by those who NOW embrace the Third Angel's Message. Well they are all dead and Jesus has not come.

All this paranoia and frenzy over these so called truths. This is so harmful to the spiritual life. It robs so many Adventists of peace. I asked an Adventist man yesterday if he felt like God approved of him. He swollowed hard, teared up, and couldn't answer me. This told me that he did not feel that God approved of him. And this is a man who is doing, to the best of his ability, all he can to spread the gospel and serve his fellow humankind. He gives away Steps to Christ to any and all. He does home repair projects for anyone in need. If you knew him you would know that he is following all of Ellen White's instructions in regard to his perceived obligations to God.

And yet he is dying spiritually, feels rejected by God, and lives life in a quiet desparation. And if Ellen White was here today, she would find something else that he fell short in, in her desire to give him the "straight truth." Piling burden after burden on God's children. The sad thing is that he would probably accept it, ask for God's forgiveness, and feel even less loved by God. And he would double his efforts to comply with the "counsel" given.

One can read through the testimonies and come up with paragraph after paragraph of how we fall short. As if telling us what we already know is going to restore us.

I don't read that Jesus did this at all. If Jesus had any strong words, it was for those who layed all these burdens on others.

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It is a disgrace for those who have been in the truth for years to talk of feeding souls who have been months in the truth, upon milk. It shows they know little of the leadings of the Spirit of the Lord, and realize not the time we are living in. Those who embrace the truth now will have to step fast. There will have to be a breaking up of heart before the Lord, a rending of heart, and not the garment."

---

Weeks and months. Come on, live in the real world. There are wounds that take a lifetime to recover from. And its not from a lack of effort. The human spirit can only progress so fast, even when we are willing to move faster.

Ellen White reveals her almost total lack of compassion and understanding. She is so shamed based herself that she has to spread it to everyone else. If there is a straight truth to be told it would be this....

These types of writings are extremely harmful. They drain a person of hope, use condemnation to manipulate, and place a person in some of the deepest darkest bondage because they are presented as "good."

Richard

[Nicodema]

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cardw said:

Weeks and months. Come on, live in the real world. There are wounds that take a lifetime to recover from. And its not from a lack of effort. The human spirit can only progress so fast, even when we are willing to move faster.

---

I'm no medical/biological expert, but I've heard it said that it takes seven years for all the cells in the body to replace themselves. Is it so strange a thing when it takes a year or more to process grief, or several years to process a serious trauma or emotional, psychological, or spiritual wounding? This is the first year I have felt finally free from the pain of what was done to me in 1998-1999. That's seven years, and that's in spite of profuse apologies from many people and a conscious choice on my part to forgive them, and a thorough analysis and embracing of anything and everything "good" that could have come from it all, including letting go of my enemies in the matter and any lingering obsessions with them. The pain, the impact of it all still lingered. I wanted it to go faster. I was "ready" (in my will and desire) to be DONE with it all in early 2000. I honestly thought when others finally came around and acknowledged their part in it that this would be it -- my healing and "resurrection" were at hand -- and was totally mystified to find that was not the case.

Oh well -- I'm rambling, and probably sharing TMI, so I'll shuddup now.... point being yes, some things take a long time to heal, even in spite of doing all the "right" things to clear them up and move on.

[LifeHiscost]

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cardw said:

>>And this is one of the false prophecies she made about those still alive.<<

**She was saying that Jesus would still come within her lifetime and those who were in the church. This is very evident in this passage.**

##If Jesus had any strong words, it was for those who layed all these burdens on others.##

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Re: >> ** Stating this as fact, it might be beneficial for more verifiable sources to be published in this thread so as to reveal the objective of the publisher. It does not appear as evident to every one.

Re: ## What burden would you say Peter was laying on others?

Do you think we could say these are strong words by Jesus specifically directed to one of Jesus' loved disciples?

[:"red"] "Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, "God forbid it, Lord! This shall never happen to You."

But He (Jesus) turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God's interests, but man's."

Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.

"For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it." [/]Matt 16:22-25 (Parenthesis mine LHC)

[:"red"]"Mockers don't love those who rebuke them, so they stay away from the wise." [/] Proverbs 15:12 NLT

[:"red"] "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent." [/] Revelation 3:19 KJV

Keep the faith!

[Guest]

Life...Why not just come out and say what you are suggesting? It's as though you are on horseback with your laptop typing & your horse stepped in a gopher hole.

[LifeHiscost]

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Nicodema said:

Oh well -- I'm rambling, and probably sharing TMI, so I'll shuddup now.... point being yes, some things take a long time to heal, even in spite of doing all the "right" things to clear them up and move on.

---

However, I don't believe the reality of needing more time lies with God. I know you didn't say that, Nico, but I just wanted to clarify that the reality is, our Father sees you as perfect the moment you receive the robe of Jesus righteousness, when you accept Jesus as your Savior.

[:"red"] "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God" [/]

1 John 3:9 NIV

Notice the word "will" in that text. That is most often looked at as a command (demand) by non-believers as also believers for the most part.

I would like to suggest, based upon a little known

spiritual key to the kingdom, that all God's commands are promises. IOW, that command is the same as already having been accomplished in entirety for the believer who has accepted Jesus' covering robe of righteousness, His life's record for the sinful self you trade at the time of accepting Him as your Savior.

[:"red"] "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" [/] 1 John 1:9 KJV

This is also reiterated at the last trump, in subsequent history for all believers who have not yet ascended into heaven.

[:"red"] "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory." [/] 1 Cor 15:52-54 KJV

This promise for the believer, is already seen as accomplished by the Deity, based on Jesus' record and life, received into the life of those who wait with fond anticipation for His return.

The only ones excluded from the fulfillment of these promises are those who do not accept Jesus as Savior, who do not believe the promises, the individuals who do not believe there is any need for personal repentance of their own corruption.

[:"red"] "The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican." [/] Luke 18:11 KJV

[:"red"] "Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:" [/] Revelation 3:17 KJV

OTOH: [:"red"] "And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted." [/] Luke 18:13,14

[:"red"] "Guide me in Your truth and faithfulness and teach me, for You are the God of my salvation; for You [You only and altogether] do I wait [expectantly] all the day long. " [/] Psalm 25:5 AMP

[:"red"] "Why are you cast down, O my inner self? And why should you moan over me and be disquieted within me? Hope in God and wait expectantly for Him, for I shall yet praise Him, my Help and my God." [/] Psalm 42:5 AMP

[:"red"] "Wait and hope for and expect the Lord; be brave and of good courage and let your heart be stout and enduring. Yes, wait for and hope for and expect the Lord." [/] Psalm 27:14 AMP

[:"red"] "For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth." [/] Psalm 37:9 KJV

[:"red"] "But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.[/] Isaiah 40:31 KJV

[:"red"] "It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the LORD." [/] Lamentations 3:26 KJV

[:"red"] "Therefore I will look unto the LORD; I will wait for the God of my salvation: my God will hear me." [/] Micah 7:7 KJV

[:"red"] "Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." [/] Jude 1:21 KJV

Sorry, I got carried away. Keep looking up!

[cardw]

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Re: >> ** Stating this as fact, it might be beneficial for more verifiable sources to be published in this thread so as to reveal the objective of the publisher. It does not appear as evident to every one.

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" The 1856 prediction was the last in an amazingly unsuccessful series of predictions of Christ's return made by Ellen White. Lucinda Burdick, a friend of Mrs. White in the 1840's, explains how Mrs. White often predicted Christ's return:

I became acquainted with James White and Ellen Harmon (now Mrs. White) early in 1845. ... She pretended God showed her things which did not come to pass. At one time she saw that the Lord would come the second time in June 1845. The prophecy was discussed in all the churches, and in a little "shut-door paper" published in Portland, Me. During the summer, after June passed, I heard a friend ask her how she accounted for the vision? She replied that "they told her in the language of Canaan, and she did not understand the language; that it was the next September that the Lord was coming, and the second growth of grass instead of the first in June." September passed, and many more have passed since, and we have not seen the Lord yet. It soon became evident to all candid persons, that many things must have been "told her in the language of Canaan," or some other which she did not understand, as there were repeated failures. I could mention many which I knew of myself.

Once, when on their way to the eastern part of Maine, she saw that they would have great trouble with the wicked, be put in prison, etc. This they told in the churches as they passed through. When they came back, they said they had a glorious time. Friends asked if they had seen any trouble with the wicked, or prisons? They replied, "None at all." People in all the churches soon began to get their eyes open, and came out decidedly against her visions; and, just as soon as they did so, she used to see them "with spots on their garments," as she expressed it. I was personally acquainted with several ministers, whom she saw landed in the kingdom with "Oh! such brilliant crowns, FULL of stars." As soon as they took a stand against the visions, she saw them "doomed, damned, and lost for ever, without hope."

(An Examination of Mrs. Ellen White's Visions, Miles Grant, Boston: Published by the Advent Christian Publication Society, 1877)

Despite her failures in 1844 and 1845, Mrs. White continued predicting Christ's imminent return. In 1849 her associate Joseph Bates announced that the "time of trouble has began." In the summer of 1849 a local pestilence struck the region. Mrs. White, seeing this as a fulfillment of prophecy indicating the end of the world, predicts this pestilence will soon become widespread:

"What we have seen and heard of the pestilence, is but the beginning of what we shall see and hear. Soon the dead and dying will be all around us." (Present Truth, Sept. 1849).

(Note: Not long after this prophecy was penned the pestilence ended and the United States entered a period of relative peace and prosperity that lasted for many years. The above quote was removed from the article when it was republished in Early Writings in 1882 and few Adventists are aware of its existence.)

By April of 1850 Mrs. White was claiming that the final shaking had begun:

"The mighty shaking has commenced." (Present Truth, April, 1850)

Meanwhile, her husband James was claiming that the departure of God's people from Babylon (Rev. 18:4) was already completed:

"Babylon, the nominal church is fallen. God's people have come out of her. She is now the 'synagogue of Satan' (Rev. 3:9). 'The habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and the cage of every unclean and hateful bird' (Rev. 18:2)." (Present Truth, April, 1850)

On June 27, 1850, Mrs. White wrote that only a few months remained for the people to get ready:

"My accompanying angel said, 'Time is almost finished. Get ready, get ready, get ready.' . . . now time is almost finished. . . and what we have been years learning, they will have to learn in a few months." (Early Writings, pp. 64-67).

This is a very significant statement. Mrs. White was saying that the truths that she and her associates had spent five years learning would have to be learned by new converts in only a few months. By September of 1850 Mrs. White was warning that Jesus was nearly finished in the Most Holy Place:

"I saw that the time for Jesus to be in the most Holy place was nearly finished, and that time cannot last but a very little longer. ... The sealing time is very short and soon will be over."—Experience & Views pp. 46-47.

When Christ did not return as expected in the early 1850s, Mrs. White gradually stopped making specific predictions about His return. Her statement at the 1856 conference was the last time she ever made a specific prediction about the time of Christ's return, and, like all of her previous statements on the subject, time has proven her prophecies wrong."

[Nicodema]

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LifeHiscost said:

However, I don't believe the reality of needing more time lies with God. I know you didn't say that, Nico, but I just wanted to clarify that the reality is, our Father sees you as perfect the moment you receive the robe of Jesus righteousness, when you accept Jesus as your Savior.

---

Oh, that's true, LHC, but (speaking of the body) God does not always grant instantaneous healing, either. Sometimes He allows us to have to go through the process of being sick. Sometimes He even allows people to die.

The same is true with psychological and/or emotional wounds and the pain and impact of them. Yes, sometimes God does grant instantaneous healing. It's amazing and wonderful when He does. But sometimes He allows us to experience the pain and impact and walk through the process ourselves, which takes time, sometimes a lot of time. I have learned this. There is no instant cure for pain or the impact of a severe trauma. Even doing the things we are supposed to do both Biblically and psychologically -- forgiving others, letting go, extracting the good from the painful experience, etc. -- don't guarantee that the pain will go away immediately or that the impact will end. To use an analogy -- if I am hit by a truck and my legs are shattered, I might never walk again, or might never walk without a cane or walker. It might heal to the point where I CAN walk again. But the healing takes time, so does the physical therapy, exercise, retraining of the legs, etc. and none of that is instantaneous. Doing all that does not even guarantee that the impact of the accident will go away -- it could leave my legs "gammy" for life.

[LifeHiscost]

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cardw said:

Quote:

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Re: >> ** Stating this as fact, it might be beneficial for more verifiable sources to be published in this thread so as to reveal the objective of the publisher. It does not appear as evident to every one.

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I appreciate your effort to answer my request for verifiable sources, cardw. I hope you weren't under the impression they needed to be more verifiable than yourself.

The source you provided would be to me in the same classification as those provided by Canright, and others of his persuasion. The one most to be remembered by me is written in the Scriptures, providing valuable information about accepting hearsay evidence from whatever sources.

---

[:"red"] "When Peter saw him, he said to Jesus, Lord, what about this man?

Jesus said to him, If I want him to stay (survive, live) until I come, what is that to you? [What concern is it of yours?] You follow Me!

So word went out among the brethren that this disciple was not going to die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he was not going to die, but, If I want him to stay (survive, live) till I come, what is that to you?

"[/] John 21:21-23 AMP

[cardw]

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I appreciate your effort to answer my request for verifiable sources, cardw. I hope you weren't under the impression they needed to be more verifiable than yourself.

The source you provided would be to me in the same classification as those provided by Canright, and others of his persuasion. The one most to be remembered by me is written in the Scriptures, providing valuable information about accepting hearsay evidence from whatever sources.

---

Well if you don't believe Ellen White when she predicts pestilence and the dead and dying, then you can never be convinced no matter what nonsense she predicts. It is quite clear from simply reading their small publication, at the time, that they were predicting the return of Jesus in just a few months.

When you combine this with Lucinda Burdick's testimony a pattern begins to emerge. Ellen White sent a large amount of personal correspondence to Lucinda Burdick and it is obvious that she considered Lucinda a personal friend. It is quite likely that Lucinda would be very familiar with Ellen White.

I have noted that even when I present direct testimony form Ellen White herself, it does not matter what evidence there is some will never be convinced.

I would ask you, what would it take for you to change your mind about Ellen White?

Richard

[LifeHiscost]

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Nicodema said:

Quote:

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LifeHiscost said:

However, I don't believe the reality of needing more time lies with God. I know you didn't say that, Nico, but I just wanted to clarify that the reality is, our Father sees you as perfect the moment you receive the robe of Jesus righteousness, when you accept Jesus as your Savior.

---

Oh, that's true, LHC, but (speaking of the body) God does not always grant instantaneous healing, either. Sometimes He allows us to have to go through the process of being sick. Sometimes He even allows people to die.

The same is true with psychological and/or emotional wounds and the pain and impact of them. Yes, sometimes God does grant instantaneous healing. It's amazing and wonderful when He does. But sometimes He allows us to experience the pain and impact and walk through the process ourselves, which takes time, sometimes a lot of time. I have learned this. There is no instant cure for pain or the impact of a severe trauma. Even doing the things we are supposed to do both Biblically and psychologically -- forgiving others, letting go, extracting the good from the painful experience, etc. -- don't guarantee that the pain will go away immediately or that the impact will end. To use an analogy -- if I am hit by a truck and my legs are shattered, I might never walk again, or might never walk without a cane or walker. It might heal to the point where I CAN walk again. But the healing takes time, so does the physical therapy, exercise, retraining of the legs, etc. and none of that is instantaneous. Doing all that does not even guarantee that the impact of the accident will go away -- it could leave my **legs "gammy" for life**.

---

Without spending a lot of time trying to pick apart your post, Nico, I believe I'm in full agreement with you. How could this particular text be true, if what you say isn't?

[:"red"] "For he that soweth to his flesh shall >>of the flesh<< reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting." [/] Gal 6:8

KJV

That's one reason why I spend time asking for endurance. However I would like to draw attention to >> <<. It is in the flesh that we reap corruption, the flesh of here and now, for as it says in the Word,

[:"red"] "And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb.

and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.[/]

Rev 21:23,27 NASB

Obviously this demands a work of re-creation. Something that cannot be left to humankind or any other creature, nor second guessing from those who claim to know who our Father will choose as His own.

[:"red"] "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." [/] 2 Corinthians 5:17 KJV

RE: ** this mortal life, as opposed to eternity. But then you knew that.

Keep the faith!

[LifeHiscost]

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cardw said:

I would ask you, what would it take for you to change your mind about Ellen White?

Richard

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Since I believe Ellen White to be a person just like you or I, with a great deal more responsibility given her than I had given me, pointing to her flaws would not be enough, anymore than pointing out the reality that King David was an adulterer and murderer, therefore not to be considered worthy of listening to the Words he wrote for posterity. David also is known as a spokesperson for the Lord, but one has to believe that faulty human beings are used of God to bring the message of salvation, before one can accept certain chosen ones (chosen of God) as having more insight that any other person with strong opinions.

[:"red"] "And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. " [/] Heb 11:6 NASB

[:"red"] "If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority." [/] John 7:17 NKJV

And also I might add, I've practiced some of the principles she espouses, with tremendous beneficial effects for the good in my own life. While I do believe it important not to look for eternal salvation based on what we do, it also seems to me to be important to recognize rewards in this life, based on following correct guidelines.

[:"red"] "The LORD says, "I will guide you along the best pathway for your life. I will advise you and watch over you." [/] PSalms 32:8 NLT

Cheers!

[cardw]

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And also I might add, I've practiced some of the principles she espouses, with tremendous beneficial effects for the good in my own life.

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Well, I practice some of the principles that she espouses, and they are beneficial to me as well.

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Since I believe Ellen White to be a person just like you or I, with a great deal more responsibility given her than I had given me, pointing to her flaws would not be enough, anymore than pointing out the reality that King David was an adulterer and murderer, therefore not to be considered worthy of listening to the Words he wrote for posterity.

---

So since David prayed to have the children of his enemies thrown against the rocks mean that David is an expert on loving our enemies? Is David an expert on raising children?

Everyone's life is worth listening to. Everything in God's creation is giving us a message. This idea that one person is more connected than another creates problems. I am not brought into oneness with God through Ellen White any more than I am with David.

In today's world don't you think there may be people who have wisdom for us today? Are we not able to gain personal discernment through our own connection with God along with those who have written in the past?

If Ellen White is human, as you have said, may that not include self deception? There certainly seems to be enough evidence of that. What I see you and others doing is deflecting these problems to her human nature, as if that justifies her condemnation of other people.

If Jesus said that He did not come to condemn the world, why would He condemn the world through Ellen White?

You example of Jesus rebuking Peter only came after Peter rebuked Him. It was very specific and Jesus rebuking anyone is not even near the amount of writings that Ellen White dedicates to condemnation.

If the church cannot move beyond the "righteousness" of Ellen White, then we are in big trouble.

Richard

[LifeHiscost]

I find nothing in Jesus' ministry that disallowed people from rejecting anything they found they couldn't comfortably place their trust. His instruction included the basic premise that to serve Him would require denial of self regularly. To incorporate both as a lifestyle would require the assurance that one could find comfort in denial of self because of strength given by Divine Source.

[:"red"] "Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. [/] Matt 11:28,29 NKJV

[:"red"] "Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution." [/] 2 Timothy 3:12 KJV

When we find a large percentage of our time occupied with debating and detracting from those we believe to be opponents of the God of peace, our ability to fit into our Father's plan of salvation can be largely restricted, if not totally nullified.

[:"red"] "John answered and said, "Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name; and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow along with us."

But Jesus said to him, "Do not hinder him; for he who is not against you is for you." " [/] Luke 9:49-50 NASB

[cardw]

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I find nothing in Jesus' ministry that disallowed people from rejecting anything they found they couldn't comfortably place their trust.

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I'm not sure what you are getting at here. I didn't say Jesus condemned people. If it is true that Jesus was the source of Ellen White's visions we certainly have a large body of material condemning all sorts of people and practices. That's my point. I don't believe that Jesus is the source of Ellen White's visions and writings.

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When we find a large percentage of our time occupied with debating and detracting from those we believe to be opponents of the God of peace, our ability to fit into our Father's plan of salvation can be largely restricted, if not totally nullified.

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Well since you are posting at a rate almost twice mine, I'm not sure you are practicing what you preach.

If you notice I don't say you are a bad person or are influenced by the Devil. I don't tell you how to believe. And yet it is very common for those who say they are the most Biblical to say that what I believe is from the Devil.

If you notice I address those things that appear to me, to block people from God's love. Shame and fear are very powerful blocks to the Love of God. I understand this from a practical experience of it, observation of how it affects others, and the intellectual theory of it. I post evidence of it and dialog reasonably about it. I ask insightful questions, which most of which you ignore. e.g. What would it take for you to change your mind about Ellen White? Evidence doesn't seem to count for much. If you have no line that Ellen White has to cross for you to change your view, then there is no argument, no evidence, and no demonstration that would ever change your mind.

You seem to limit your responses to Bible quotes, out of context, generally implying that I am against God. That is what I have heard all my life. And that is about fear and shame.

I am very well read because if I don't know about something, I go find out until I do. I am always willing to look at evidence and I have looked at a lot of it.

Dialog is important. I do change my mind all the time because I know that I don't know everything. If you note, when I have misquoted something or am in error, I check it out and correct it, to the best of my ability.

I generally don't see that in return. Rather there is a general attack on my integrity, my honesty, my morals, and other non related issues. I am not complaining here, just stating what I observe. And because I observe that, it is very unlikely that I will change my mind about the fruits of believing in Ellen White or certain methods of using the Bible. It only serves to demonstrate and confirm what I believe already.

Not that this will change anything, but its out there.

Richard

[cricket]

**bump**

[Parade Orange]

my name says alot about me, but of course only a tiny thing about me.

your names dont say alot aboutmost of you kind folks here- but your postings screams reams of materials.

the fruits of the Spirit is what I look for.

I can see kindness and gentleness in posts.

I can see self control to a degree.

Sometimes I see LOVE!

it does not envy or boast

How attractive is that?

its not proud or selfseeking.

Love hardly notices when someone does wrong.

I dont have the Bible in front of me. all from memory of GALATIONS 5 and 1 Cor 13.

the fussing I have mentioned in another post(the insulting and the judging of hearts ect.) wears me down. I am not like other men, I am very sensitive. 8:O)

anyway

I love the testimonies and praise reports. God is good even when we are not.

[Paul Beach]

Margaret Gray responds:

It is indeed good to be happy in the Lord.

But she does disagree that "Love hardly notices when someone does wrong." Love shows concern about people and wants to restore them. Love does not diminish when people do wrongs, but it instead yearns for wholeness for them. That is why love hurts sometimes. Without love, we'd feel numb.

[Fran]

Yes, Mirrors are wonderful! LOL otflol

[Fran]

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Nicodema said:

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Tom Wetmore said:

My typical rejoinder to the smug "cream rises to the top" idea is the deflating "Yes, but so does scum."

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BWAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH!!!!!

That is priceless!

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I have started reading this months too late! Nico, yes, it is priceless.

Can't wait to read the rest.

Forgive me on commenting on Jun 2005 poasts. My belly is hurting from the humor of it all!

How could I have missed this in June? Sorry for being so ...

[Fran]

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God does not always grant instantaneous healing, either. Sometimes He allows us to have to go through the process of being sick. Sometimes He even allows people to die.

The same is true with psychological and/or emotional wounds and the pain and impact of them. Yes, sometimes God does grant instantaneous healing. It's amazing and wonderful when He does. But sometimes He allows us to experience the pain and impact and walk through the process ourselves, which takes time, sometimes a lot of time. I have learned this. There is no instant cure for pain or the impact of a severe trauma. Even doing the things we are supposed to do both Biblically and psychologically -- forgiving others, letting go, extracting the good from the painful experience, etc. -- don't guarantee that the pain will go away immediately or that the impact will end. To use an analogy -- if I am hit by a truck and my legs are shattered, I might never walk again, or might never walk without a cane or walker. It might heal to the point where I CAN walk again. But the healing takes time, so does the physical therapy, exercise, retraining of the legs, etc. and none of that is instantaneous. Doing all that does not even guarantee that the impact of the accident will go away -- it could leave my legs "gammy" for life.

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I finished reading the thread. The tone is different now, but what Nico said is so true. Wounds stay for a very long time. This goes not just for Mental, but Spiritual and Physical health. All three are affected which it turn changes future life directions.