Left Powerless Over Sin? No!

[Gerr]

There is nothing so offensive to God as sin....

And what sin is most offensive to God? Read Heb 11, do you find there anyone who is/was commended for having lived a perfectly sinless life?

[Gerr]

I consider myself a rational person. For me to believe it, it first has to be a rational thought. I have trouble believing that God created us with that thought pattern, and then demanding us to think irrational and borderline-insane thoughts.

And just how do we define what is/is not rational? I believe myself to be rational as well. "Irrational and borderline-insane" people just don't get to graduate school.

[Gibs]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

There is nothing so offensive to God as sin....

And what sin is most offensive to God? Read Heb 11, do you find there anyone who is/was commended for having lived a perfectly sinless life?

1Jo 2:1 ¶ My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1Jo 2:3 ¶ And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1Jo 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

1Jo 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[joeb]

Do you think you can REALLY meet this standard?

ESV | ‎Lk 10:27 And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.”

Do you ever forget? Here is a startling quote, "Forgetfulness is sin. Many feel that no blame should be attached to forgetfulness."

Testimony to the Church (No. 21, private.). 1872 (14).

Do you ever get sick? "It is a sin to be sick, for all sickness is the result of transgression."

Counsels on Health. 1923 (37). Pacific Press Publishing Association.

Here is how the ESV translates 1 Jn 3:6-8:

ESV | ‎1 Jn 3:6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. ‎7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. ‎8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning.

The verb in those underlined words are present & active. It is a willful/intentional/premeditated disobedience. I believe the Amplified had the correct nuance of the word. I don't have my Amplified with me to correctly quote it for you. Look it up if you have one. But the ESV & NASB use "practice sinning" which means the same thing as something done willfully/intentionally/premeditatively AND habitually. That is far different from something done inadvertently and un-intentionally.

As Rom 3:23 says, "For all have sinned and fall short [present tense] of the glory of God."

Yes....

It's too long to post here, but read Steps to Christ pp57 - 66. That's the chapter titled The Test of Discipleship. That chapter, well, the entire book, is the nuts and bolts of righteousness by faith. In this chapter Ellen White explains how Christ's righteousness is not only for our justification, but also for our sanctification.... As Paul said in Colossians 2:6. As ye have therefore recieved Christ, so walk ye in Him and as God promised through Ezekiel:

Ezekiel 36: 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

These are God's promises and not my imaginings. He said He will give us a new heart, one in tune with His laws, and we will live according to His laws. In other words our lives will be like Christ's life, lives lived according to the love of God....

You once said you tried to live a life of perfection and it failed. Well, I say you went about it the wrong way. You tried to live a life of perfection through your own will. That is not righteousness by faith. That is attempted righteousness through your own will power. That is bound to fail. The Bible in fact guarantees it. Ellen White says it is life of drudgery and not the life of joy that we are promised if God is with us.

What I am proposing is completely different than what you experiencedd. I'm proposing that God is able to change us through our relationship with Him. That if we entirely surrender to Him, He will change our hearts according to His promises, and that we will live the way He wants us to live.

[cardw]

This last post of yours is brilliant. Unfortunately it will not be understood by most of the people who regularly post here. I would like to highlight this particular point.

The idea that the only way for us to be "saved" from the doom that none of us wished upon ourselves but are born into this "Imperfection", is to make the most selfish choice in the universe and to choose another person to die instead of us who did not deserve to die - it's not only irrational, it's highly immoral.

This is really damning to the whole Christian moral argument. I may not want to die in this imaginary test of loyalty, but god is asking me to make an immoral choice to be saved.

In a very direct way, by choosing to allow another to die for my guilt, I am committing sin. So therefore god is tempting me to commit sin to save my own life. In fact it goes beyond temptation to a threat of death if I do not commit this sin of injustice.

Because god is promoting sin in humanity he then condemns himself as a sinner by his own standard of justice. This makes the Christian god a hypocrite.

[M. T. Cross]

Almost every culture on earth has a story about how they are the true chosen people of God.

Just a side note - this is true of many cultures indeed. However the Northern European tribes and cultures - pre Christianity - did not share that view. Yes they had gods, they prayed to gods for help and so forth. But as far as being chosen as the special people, not so much. There is no known history of a religious war in Northern Europe before the Church came in and started "converting".

Thanks for your time - back to your regularly scheduled debate.

[Gibs]

The Christian Religion though has 5 gospels though of a Redeemer and most don't realize the first one was prophecied around 600 yrs before. I'd say this is adequate proof of here is the true as it was fulfilled to the letter and this prophecy is just one that was.

No prophecy from God, Yahweh has failed or ever will! Read now this first gospel given before Matt., Mark, Luke and John.

Isa 53:1 ¶ Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

Isa 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

Isa 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Isa 53:4 ¶ Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

Isa 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

Isa 53:10 ¶ Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[fccool]

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And just how do we define what is/is not rational? I believe myself to be rational as well. "Irrational and borderline-insane" people just don't get to graduate school.

Quote:

Your argument about choosing another person to die as being selfish/irrational/immoral would be valid had God sent one of His creatures to die in order to redeem man. I believe it is precisely for that reason that the Creator Himself came in the flesh and sacrificed Himself to redeem us from a condition we had nothing to with!!!

I don't think you understand what I'm trying to convey. I does not matter who sacrifices who. If you are a criminal, and you let anyone die instead of you - that's an immoral choice on your part. It does not matter whether the creator himself dies, it's just becomes a convoluted word-play, because you would contend that the creator had to be a perfect man before he can die for you.

The point being, if you accept ANYONE dying on your behalf as a VIABLE WAY to be forgiven for your crimes, then it's an IMMORAL CHOICE that you make.

Cardw correctly pointed out that any God requiring such a choice as prerequisite can't remain "Good" and "Just", because such idea is neither consistent with justice, neither it is consistent with mercy. Mercy is forgiveness, and God does not "forgive" in this context. God simply gets his payment elsewhere and declares "All is paid! All who are willing, come aboard!". That's not mercy.

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Now, if you want to die for yourself instead of taking the way out that is provided, that's your choice.

This actually outlines the selfish and immoral idea that I'm talking about. I don't have any choice but to die for myself... and I'm not afraid to do so. There's nothing to fear in death.

Eternal life on other hand is the idea of immature mind that does not consider what it would be like to be alive for a trillion trillions of years. There's a "divine reason" as to why our experience is cut off. What I have is more than enough for me in terms of my experience here. I could not imagine prolonging such experience forever. At certain point we need to be done. I think it's the pinnacle of human maturity to realize it, and be at peace with it.

Quote:

True, but a little rational thinking establishes the thought. Holy Writ says: "God is a consuming fire," Dt 4:24; Heb 12:29. And one of the combustible things in His presence is sin, for the "wages of sin is death," Rom 6:23.

Sin is not something that can be caught on fire . Sin is an action, whether of body or mind. It's an abstract concept that has to be explained through more words than "sin".

That's why the above makes zero sense. Likewise, you are drawing imaginary parallels. Rom 6:23 certainly does not talk about what you are talking about. It talks about the "reason" for people dying, because of the consequences of sin. It has nothing to do with God's presence setting them on fire.

You are making unsubstantiated conclusion even in context of your own belief system.

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Apples & oranges. It would have been totally a gross miscarriage of justice if the descendants of A & E were left to die for something they had NOTHING to do with. That used to bother me a lot. The condemnation of man is not in his sinfulness at birth, it is because God provides a way out and people don't believe it.

First of all, you are actually engaging in double-speak here. There would not be a need for "the way out" if man would not be previously condemned. So it's quite obvious that you are wrong here from the get go. Man is condemned and punished because of "sinfulness from birth". The way out is a ploy to make it easier.

It would be odd that the way out would be paved through a mountain-full of animal corpses who were slaughtered needlessly for no fault of their own... and that was not enough, because apparently a human being had to die to fulfill the requirement so that God would not be angry anymore. And because human being could not be perfect enough, God said "Ok. I'll come down myself and will suffer and die so I can forgive you people, but only if you believe that I did that based on few writings of superstitious people 2000++ years ago... no matter how irrational it may sound"

Don't you see the apparent problem with this? If God would provide a way out, don't you think it would be more than require a robotic belief that rejects rational thought?

Quote:

God's plan of salvation is totally just. He is ultimately the one who is offended when one sins against another who was created in His image.

So, if child is raped by a priest, and is emotionally screwed up for the rest of his life and he turns to drugs and alcohol to drown the memory of it and cope with emotional damage... he is subsequently distrustful of any religious teachings and grows up abhorring and rejecting anything to do with the religion.

On other hand, the priest recognizes the terrible thing he has done and in guilt pleads with God, who is the ultimate offended party, to forgive him of his horrible sin and to give him a second chance... let's say he is genuinely does so.

In this scenario - the child grows up and is condemned. The priest is enjoying the eternal life never having to apologize or make up to the child.

Yes... absolutely and totally just!

Quote:

God's forgiveness is just. Too many people think it is unjust because the sinner seemingly goes free without consequences. That is patently untrue. First, transgression demands the death of the transgressor. Second, he gets a reprieve from death by accepting a Substitute. Those who believe in cheap grace stop right here. It costs the sinner nothing. But, thirdly, his repentanc and forgiveness symbolized in baptism, also requires the death of the "old man." If the "old man" does not die, his repentance (being sorry for the offensive deed and pledge not to do it again) was not sincere in the first place. He is to walk "in newness of life."

In the scenario I gave you above it fixes NOTHING. Sure, the priest repents, but by his previous actions he destroyed the life of a person and turned him to complete distrust and possibility of accepting religion.

God then punishes the person twice, first by not restoring what's rightfully belongs to that person - a sense of dignity and worthiness (whatever it may be), and secondly by blaming the person for not trusting "the way out" under such difficult circumstances.

The offender is rewarded for feeling guilty yet avoiding paying what is actually due, the offended party is punished for feeling resentful and acting upon it.

It fixes NOTHING. I think it would be more idea if priest would do everything in his power to restore what was lost to the person he offended, but that's not the Christianity's requirement. The requirement is to repent (not do it again), as you yourself has pointed out.

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And I could point you Abraham, Moses, Jesus & His empty tomb, Paul, Mueller, and Luther, etc. etc.

Abraham, Moses, and Jesus, and even Paul are seemingly mythical and composite characters that arguably are products of exaggerated cultural mythology and tradition. The only way you can point me to these people is by pointing to a page in the Bible, and the books written about the Bible.

But, even if these people existed, in itself it's not a proof of the extraordinary events described in the Bible. Just because there was a rabbi named Jesus does not automatically mean that he performed miracles and was resurrected. Likewise, the only account of the ressurection of Christ is found in the source of the claims itself - the Bible.

So, you are using the Bible to validate itself Let's try and see if Quoran can do the same? Of course it can, and it says that the Bible is wrong. So does the Book of Mormon, which says that the Bible was corrupted. And they all can "prove it" by pointing you to the characters in their books.

That's why we have standards of rational and logical arguments.

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NIV84 | ‎1 Co 10:11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.

So was "War and Peace", "Crime and Punishment", "Fight Club", and any other contemporary literature you may find. Of itself, it does not warrant going into basement and starting your own fight-club, thinking that it's the true salvation for mankind.

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A good argument for the existence of a deceitful/deceptive devil. Anyone can make a claim they are the chosen.

Anyone? You mean... someone like yourself?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Do you think you can REALLY meet this standard?

ESV | ‎Lk 10:27 And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.”

As Rom 3:23 says, "For all have sinned and fall short [present tense] of the glory of God."

Yes....

Well, good for you. But I rather doubt it. I KNOW for myself that in my heart I want to love God with all my heart, all my soul, all my strength, all my mind, and my neighbor as myself. But I also KNOW that my PERFORMANCE never comes up to this standard. So, am I lost because I could not do what you are able to do?

Quote:

It's too long to post here, but read Steps to Christ pp57 - 66.

I have read SC several times, and before I started this response, I read the chapter you recommended again. There is nothing in there that gives me the idea that I can achieve sinless perfection other than with the perfect righteousness of Christ that is accepted by faith. Here are some passages that you might reconsider.

There are those who have known the pardoning love of Christ and who really desire to be children of God, yet they realize that their character is imperfect, their life faulty, and they are ready to doubt whether their hearts have been renewed by the Holy Spirit. SC 64

The closer you come to Jesus, the more faulty you will appear in your own eyes; for your vision will be clearer, and your imperfections will be seen in broad and distinct contrast to His perfect nature. This is evidence that Satan’s delusions have lost their [bEGIN P.65] power; that the vivifying influence of the Spirit of God is arousing you. {SC 64.2}

If I as a sinner continue to see faults and imperfections in my own life even as I come closer to Jesus, how do you think God with His perfect vision see my performance? But thanks be to God, He sees the perfect righteousness of Christ covering me.

It was possible for Adam, before the fall, to form a righteous character by obedience to God’s law. But he failed to do this, and [size:14pt]because of his sin our natures are fallen and we cannot make ourselves righteous. Since we are sinful, unholy, we cannot perfectly obey the holy law. We have no righteousness of our own with which to meet the claims of the law of God. But Christ has made a way of escape for us. He lived on earth amid trials and temptations such as we have to meet. He lived a sinless life. He died for us, and now He offers to take our sins and give us His righteousness. If you give yourself to Him, and accept Him as your Saviour, then, sinful as your life may have been, for His sake you are accounted righteous. Christ’s character stands in place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned.[/size] {SC 62.2}

The imputed righteousness of Christ will ALWAYS be the ground of our hope from beginning to the end. His imparted righteousness is the proof that we have the first, not the other way around. As she eloquently says:

We do not earn salvation by our obedience; for salvation is the free gift of God, to be received by faith. But obedience is the fruit of faith. SC 61

[JoeMo]

fccool,

I've been a strong Christian all my life. You present a strong and logical argument - one that is difficult (for me, at least) to refute using secular logic. I'm finding it challenging to provide a legitimate rebuttal using scripture, cuz everything I come up with seems circular - like saying "God says this in the Bible; and I know this is true cuz God told us the Bible is true."

For me, it boils down to faith. I "believe" the story; and I can't bring myself to feel dirty or guilty about accepting someone else's volunteering to take away the guilt for (i.e., "forgive") my sin. Part of what the Bible says (excuse the circular logic) is that believers are "in Christ". If I take that literally, didn't I also die on the cross when Christ did? Have I already, with Christ, "paid" the penalty for my sins (even though I have no recollection of the punishment)?

I know this probably sounds kinda weak to you, because it is (again) circular logic. I have no fact-based rebuttal to make. God seems to say that accepting Jesus' death as reconciling us to God is the thing to do. For me to do differently goes against my world-view and my concept of a Father. I can't tell you how many times my earthly dad paid for the stupidity of my youth; never asking for anything but love in return. Why should I think that's too much of a stretch for my heavenly Father?

For the record, I'm not putting down the logic of guys like you and cardw; I'm just saying how I feel. As you both have noted before, spiritual emotions sometimes don't seem to be based on secular reality or logic.

One of you told a story about a young man being molested by a priest and turning away from the church; while the priest genuinely repents. In your story, the boy goes to hell and the priest is saved. In my story, people cannot always control the circumstances and situations they face in life; but they can control how they respond to those situations. The boy has more than enough justification to turn his back on religion. IMO, the boy has no reason to turn his back on God. The priest is a human, and humans screw up. It is just as illogical for the boy to blame God for what this human did as it is for priest to accept God's sacrifice for what he (the priest) did. Furthermore, if God truly is who He says He is, He would take into consideration how the priest misrepresented God to the boy; and the boy may very well be "healed" of His emotional scars and taken to heaven. I certainly am not willing to put God in a box like denominations do. If He is really God, He will do whatever He thinks is right; and what the church thinks really doesn't matter in comparison to what God thinks.

[Gerr]

Did you find anyone in Heb 11, Gibs, who had achieved sinless perfection?

"The closer you come to Jesus, the more faulty you will appear in your own eyes; for your vision will be clearer, and your imperfections will be seen in broad and distinct contrast to His perfect nature. This is evidence that Satan’s delusions have lost their [bEGIN P.65] power; that the vivifying influence of the Spirit of God is arousing you." {SC 64.2}

[debbym]

Quote:

Did you find anyone in Heb 11, Gibs, who had achieved sinless perfection?

"The closer you come to Jesus, the more faulty you will appear in your own eyes; for your vision will be clearer, and your imperfections will be seen in broad and distinct contrast to His perfect nature. This is evidence that Satan’s delusions have lost their [bEGIN P.65] power; that the vivifying influence of the Spirit of God is arousing you." {SC 64.2}

it is not a matter of ceasing to be a sinner, and \ceasing to have a fallen nature, we understand more and more what we are by nature.

it is that Christ may come and dwell in us as we are, that His character can grow in us, and we can have this treasure in earthen vessels. the question is not are you perfect, but is Christ in you? and He is perfect. It is God's perfection and righteousness that we can have abiding in us as fallen weak creatures.

By faith Christ can dwell in us.

debbym

[Gerr]

This last post of yours is brilliant. Unfortunately it will not be understood by most of the people who regularly post here. I would like to highlight this particular point.

Originally Posted By: fccool

The idea that the only way for us to be "saved" from the doom that none of us wished upon ourselves but are born into this "Imperfection", is to make the most selfish choice in the universe and to choose another person to die instead of us who did not deserve to die - it's not only irrational, it's highly immoral.

This is really damning to the whole Christian moral argument. I may not want to die in this imaginary test of loyalty, but god is asking me to make an immoral choice to be saved.

In a very direct way, by choosing to allow another to die for my guilt, I am committing sin. So therefore god is tempting me to commit sin to save my own life. In fact it goes beyond temptation to a threat of death if I do not commit this sin of injustice.

Because god is promoting sin in humanity he then condemns himself as a sinner by his own standard of justice. This makes the Christian god a hypocrite.

ESV | ‎Jn 15:13 "Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends."

If you insist on justice and want die for your own sins, then that's your choice. But God's love and mercy is stronger than His desire to execute sinners in the name of justice.

ESV | ‎Jas 2:13 "For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment."

[Gerr]

Quote:

Did you find anyone in Heb 11, Gibs, who had achieved sinless perfection?

"The closer you come to Jesus, the more faulty you will appear in your own eyes; for your vision will be clearer, and your imperfections will be seen in broad and distinct contrast to His perfect nature. This is evidence that Satan’s delusions have lost their [bEGIN P.65] power; that the vivifying influence of the Spirit of God is arousing you." {SC 64.2}

it is not a matter of ceasing to be a sinner, and \ceasing to have a fallen nature, we understand more and more what we are by nature.

it is that Christ may come and dwell in us as we are, that His character can grow in us, and we can have this treasure in earthen vessels. the question is not are you perfect, but is Christ in you? and He is perfect. It is God's perfection and righteousness that we can have abiding in us as fallen weak creatures.

By faith Christ can dwell in us.

debbym

[color:#3333FF]

Please read the quote again. It is talking, not about our nature, but about our faults and imperfections. Our ONLY ground of hope is in the perfect righteousness of Christ, NOT in achieving sinless perfection. That's a chimera.

And you are correct, if Christ is in us, He is who the Father sees when He looks at us - sinners who are as though we have never sinned.

[joeb]

I have read SC several times, and before I started this response, I read the chapter you recommended again. There is nothing in there that gives me the idea that I can achieve sinless perfection other than with the perfect righteousness of Christ that is accepted by faith. Here are some passages that you might reconsider.

There are those who have known the pardoning love of Christ and who really desire to be children of God, yet they realize that their character is imperfect, their life faulty, and they are ready to doubt whether their hearts have been renewed by the Holy Spirit. SC 64

The closer you come to Jesus, the more faulty you will appear in your own eyes; for your vision will be clearer, and your imperfections will be seen in broad and distinct contrast to His perfect nature. This is evidence that Satan’s delusions have lost their [bEGIN P.65] power; that the vivifying influence of the Spirit of God is arousing you. {SC 64.2}

If I as a sinner continue to see faults and imperfections in my own life even as I come closer to Jesus, how do you think God with His perfect vision see my performance? But thanks be to God, He sees the perfect righteousness of Christ covering me.

It was possible for Adam, before the fall, to form a righteous character by obedience to God’s law. But he failed to do this, and [size:14pt]because of his sin our natures are fallen and we cannot make ourselves righteous. Since we are sinful, unholy, we cannot perfectly obey the holy law. We have no righteousness of our own with which to meet the claims of the law of God. But Christ has made a way of escape for us. He lived on earth amid trials and temptations such as we have to meet. He lived a sinless life. He died for us, and now He offers to take our sins and give us His righteousness. If you give yourself to Him, and accept Him as your Saviour, then, sinful as your life may have been, for His sake you are accounted righteous. Christ’s character stands in place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned.[/size] {SC 62.2}

The imputed righteousness of Christ will ALWAYS be the ground of our hope from beginning to the end. His imparted righteousness is the proof that we have the first, not the other way around. As she eloquently says:

We do not earn salvation by our obedience; for salvation is the free gift of God, to be received by faith. But obedience is the fruit of faith. SC 61

[JoeMo]

fccool and cardw,

I've been thinking more about what you guys have been saying; and I have to agree - the whole idea of "grace being our salvation" and "someone else dying for our sins" is indeed ludicrous. It's not fair at all! It makes no sense for one person to do a dirty deed and burn for it; while another person does the exact same thing, apologizes to his deity for it; and the dirty deed is forgiven and forgotten! How crazy is that? How selfish is it? No wonder the devil is in so much of a tizzy! He can't win! God knows all of his "next moves" in advance; and somehow counteracts them, protecting a class of beings that deserves no protection. How can we swallow such BS?

Maybe that's why its called a "mystery". Maybe that's why the book calls salvation "foolishness" (See 1Corinthians 1-3).

All that being said, I choose to believe the story in the book. It's not a matter of rationality; it's a matter of faith. I'm not gonna pretend to refute your points or show how illogical they are - you make perfect sense. I choose to believe the "foolishness". No defense, no arguing - just my choice. Logic will never justify it; only faith. If I had not had what I believe to be personal encounters with my Deity, I might be sitting on your side of the table. But my personal experiences (real, imagined, or induced) trump someone else's logic. It's easier to reject someone elses logic than it is to deny the input of one's personal 5 senses and experience.

[Woody]

I will sin till the day I die.

Praise God He forgives me and my place in His paradise is secured.

I am saved.

His blood has saved me from the curse of the Law.

Praise His Holy Name.

[Ted Oplinger]

Did you find anyone in Heb 11, Gibs, who had achieved sinless perfection?

"The closer you come to Jesus, the more faulty you will appear in your own eyes; for your vision will be clearer, and your imperfections will be seen in broad and distinct contrast to His perfect nature. This is evidence that Satan’s delusions have lost their [bEGIN P.65] power; that the vivifying influence of the Spirit of God is arousing you." {SC 64.2}

Well, Gerry, let's see who's in that list of people...anyone deemed "perfect" by their achievement in this list...

Abel - perfect? No sins are accorded to his name, but that fact he brought the correct sacrifice to God indicates he did not see himself to be perfect. At any rate, his brother Cain saw Abel so imperfect it was worth killing him over...Hmmm...scratch Abel - he claimed it by faith.

Enoch - perfect? Hmmmm - a good candidate, as it says he obtained the witness he was pleasing to God. Must have had perfection, right? Ummm, no - next verse says we can't please God but by faith. Scratch Enoch as perfect. He had to claim it by faith, also.

Noah - another candidate, as the record of Genesis says he was the only truly righteous man in Noah's generation. Oops - Hebrews 11:7 says he was the heir of righteousness which is according to faith. Besides, Noah got drunk and naked after the Flood. Scratch Noah - same story - another claimant by faith.

It goes downhill from there...

Abraham - son of an idolater; liar and deceiver; failed to believe God would actually do what He promised through Sara, took Hagar as a second wife.

Sara, his wife - convinced her husband to take Hagar as wife to fulfill God's promised; laughed when Christ told Abraham he'd have a son one year later.

Joseph - a proud, spoiled brat with a (unearned) reputation for being a ladies' man; wound up #2 man in power, and used that power to trick his brothers.

Moses - an apparently unrepentant murder; sinned against God by striking the Rock the second time.

Rahab - well, the Scriptures did us the favor of naming her "the harlot"; enough said there.

Gideon - polygamous, doubted God's appointing.

Barak - coward; God had to achieve His work through Deborah's leading.

Samson - lived most his life in sinful lust and appetite; gained true repentance at the end, and sealed it with suicide.

Jephthah - made a rash vow, had to sacrifice his virgin daughter because of it.

David, the King - the man "after the Lord's own heart" - liar, adulterer, murderer, poor father role model, polygamist...again, he had to claim righteousness by faith. By the way - was there any sacrifice permitted for the sins of murder and/or adultery?

Samuel - quick temper, self-focused, indulgent father.

No, Gerry, not a single one on that list who could claim achieving sinless perfection for themselves. They all had to claim perfection by the righteousness that is by faith, even for the best of the lot (Enoch).

If anyone else could make a case for anyone "achieving" for any of those, I'd like to see it also.

I tend to think Romans 3:23 will apply all the way to the end. Moral perfection will be attained only by faith - faith in the Word which promises and creates where righteousness never existed before. The caveat, though, is that those who will be perfect in God's reckoning will not be seen by others to be so, nor will they claim themselves to be so. Even if we do walk sinlessly by faith for a time in God's eyes (as God's Word does tell us it is possible), there will always be people who dispute that walking.

I think Romans 2:29 also applies here..."perfection" is not found in doing the Letter by human strength, but by the writing of the Letter on the heart by the Spirit, and the praise coming from God, not man.

In short...we stand by faith in Christ's righteousness, even if are found in God's eyes to be walking "perfectly" by the power of the Word down here on earth.

That's how I see it, Gerry. Another may dispute this all they desire, but it won't change the Gospel truth.

Blessings,

[joeb]

fccool and cardw,

I've been thinking more about what you guys have been saying; and I have to agree - the whole idea of "grace being our salvation" and "someone else dying for our sins" is indeed ludicrous. It's not fair at all! It makes no sense for one person to do a dirty deed and burn for it; while another person does the exact same thing, apologizes to his deity for it; and the dirty deed is forgiven and forgotten! How crazy is that? How selfish is it? No wonder the devil is in so much of a tizzy! He can't win! God knows all of his "next moves" in advance; and somehow counteracts them, protecting a class of beings that deserves no protection. How can we swallow such BS?

Maybe that's why its called a "mystery". Maybe that's why the book calls salvation "foolishness" (See 1Corinthians 1-3).

All that being said, I choose to believe the story in the book. It's not a matter of rationality; it's a matter of faith. I'm not gonna pretend to refute your points or show how illogical they are - you make perfect sense. I choose to believe the "foolishness". No defense, no arguing - just my choice. Logic will never justify it; only faith. If I had not had what I believe to be personal encounters with my Deity, I might be sitting on your side of the table. But my personal experiences (real, imagined, or induced) trump someone else's logic. It's easier to reject someone elses logic than it is to deny the input of one's personal 5 senses and experience.

[Ted Oplinger]

Quote:

Did you find anyone in Heb 11, Gibs, who had achieved sinless perfection?

"The closer you come to Jesus, the more faulty you will appear in your own eyes; for your vision will be clearer, and your imperfections will be seen in broad and distinct contrast to His perfect nature. This is evidence that Satan’s delusions have lost their [bEGIN P.65] power; that the vivifying influence of the Spirit of God is arousing you." {SC 64.2}

it is not a matter of ceasing to be a sinner, and \ceasing to have a fallen nature, we understand more and more what we are by nature.

it is that Christ may come and dwell in us as we are, that His character can grow in us, and we can have this treasure in earthen vessels. the question is not are you perfect, but is Christ in you? and He is perfect. It is God's perfection and righteousness that we can have abiding in us as fallen weak creatures.

By faith Christ can dwell in us.

debbym

It is those last three lines that cinch it, Debbym.

While I do declare with the Bible it is possible - indeed, preferable for us to not sin, I declare - also with the Bible - it is possible only in and by Christ.

Rather than giving us a sense of perfection, walking sinlessly causes us to gain a clearer picture of just how fallen our nature is before God. The more we walk so, the more desirable Christ is, and less good and power we see in the flesh.

The Devil is right about this point - we cannot overcome our sinful flesh. And we believe him! Over and again, we believe him! Even in these threads wondering about the achievability of that ephemeral thing "perfection", we believe the devil!

Because we don't realize the Devil is fooling us - to either keep trying to achieve it in their strength and will to "get ready" (as some do), else disparage those who do see the secret (by the power of Christ's Word and testimony) to say ANY power is impossible to defeat the flesh.

I don't enjoy the devil's sense of humor.

Christ does desire His victory to be repeated in His people. The secret is cooperating with God for the "new man" - Christ formed within. Christ is the same, yesterday, today, and tomorrow. The manner in which He overcame while here on earth, He will repeat the same in us, if we let Him.

1 John 2:1, 2 says it in a nutshell - the Scriptures are written that we may NOT sin...yet, if we DO, we have a Helper called alongside for aid. That verse 2 is not for legal help before the bar of God, as many think. The "Paracletos" mentioned there is the same mentioned in John 14:16 of the promised Spirit. We have aid to lean on to instruct us just where to place our feet, so that we need not slip.

Trouble is, we see ourselves slipping so much everyday, in so many ways, we find ourselves laughing like Sara at the thought of the Promise being fulfilled in US. See my response to Gerry above about who really sees and declares sinlessness in us - it isn't anyone on earth, that's for sure.

Rather than beat ourselves up, or give up trusting, we need to get up, nurse those knees and elbows, and keep trusting...

Blessings,

[joeb]

It is those last three lines that cinch it, Debbym.

While I do declare with the Bible it is possible - indeed, preferable for us to not sin, I declare - also with the Bible - it is possible only in and by Christ.

Rather than giving us a sense of perfection, walking sinlessly causes us to gain a clearer picture of just how fallen our nature is before God. The more we walk so, the more desirable Christ is, and less good and power we see in the flesh.

The Devil is right about this point - we cannot overcome our sinful flesh. And we believe him! Over and again, we believe him! Even in these threads wondering about the achievability of that ephemeral thing "perfection", we believe the devil!

Because we don't realize the Devil is fooling us - to either keep trying to achieve it in their strength and will to "get ready" (as some do), else disparage those who do see the secret (by the power of Christ's Word and testimony) to say ANY power is impossible to defeat the flesh.

I don't enjoy the devil's sense of humor.

Christ does desire His victory to be repeated in His people. The secret is cooperating with God for the "new man" - Christ formed within. Christ is the same, yesterday, today, and tomorrow. The manner in which He overcame while here on earth, He will repeat the same in us, if we let Him.

1 John 2:1, 2 says it in a nutshell - the Scriptures are written that we may NOT sin...yet, if we DO, we have a Helper called alongside for aid. That verse 2 is not for legal help before the bar of God, as many think. The "Paracletos" mentioned there is the same mentioned in John 14:16 of the promised Spirit. We have aid to lean on to instruct us just where to place our feet, so that we need not slip.

Trouble is, we see ourselves slipping so much everyday, in so many ways, we find ourselves laughing like Sara at the thought of the Promise being fulfilled in US. See my response to Gerry above about who really sees and declares sinlessness in us - it isn't anyone on earth, that's for sure.

Rather than beat ourselves up, or give up trusting, we need to get up, nurse those knees and elbows, and keep trusting...

Blessings,

It was seeing this hope that brought me back to the SDA church some 35+ years ago. I sometimes wonder if it will ever become a mainstream SDA belief or if the SDA church will simply wither up and dry away because it must remain a dry branch if it maintains this unbelief in the power of God.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

This is really damning to the whole Christian moral argument. I may not want to die in this imaginary test of loyalty, but god is asking me to make an immoral choice to be saved.

In a very direct way, by choosing to allow another to die for my guilt, I am committing sin. So therefore god is tempting me to commit sin to save my own life. In fact it goes beyond temptation to a threat of death if I do not commit this sin of injustice.

Because god is promoting sin in humanity he then condemns himself as a sinner by his own standard of justice. This makes the Christian god a hypocrite.

ESV | ‎Jn 15:13 "Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends."

If you insist on justice and want die for your own sins, then that's your choice. But God's love and mercy is stronger than His desire to execute sinners in the name of justice.

This is not an issue of what I want. I might choose to have Jesus die for my sins. This doesn't negate the fact that I have committed an immoral act by allowing him to die for my guilt.

Even you have admitted that this is unjust.

If sin is so abhorrent to god then why is god promoting it?

[Ted Oplinger]

fccool and cardw,

I've been thinking more about what you guys have been saying; and I have to agree - the whole idea of "grace being our salvation" and "someone else dying for our sins" is indeed ludicrous. It's not fair at all! It makes no sense for one person to do a dirty deed and burn for it; while another person does the exact same thing, apologizes to his deity for it; and the dirty deed is forgiven and forgotten! How crazy is that? How selfish is it? No wonder the devil is in so much of a tizzy! He can't win! God knows all of his "next moves" in advance; and somehow counteracts them, protecting a class of beings that deserves no protection. How can we swallow such BS?

Perhaps it is because we think of "vicarious" to mean a swap, individual for individual. Unfortunately, fccool and cardw have it pegged dead right in saying the vast majority of Christendom thinks of Christ's death on the cross in specifically those terms - "He died, so I can live".

The trouble is, no court of justice - human or Divine - could look at that and call it justice served for sin.

And indeed, that's not what the calls the death of Christ, either.

Romans 5:1-11 appears on the surface to talk of a "vicarious" death - reconciled by the blood of Christ. And in fact, it is used throughout Christendom for that very purpose.

A look at the context, though, places the matter into a whole different light.

Context = look at verses 12-19: the reconciliation is patterned not on a swap, but on a specific model.

What happened to us while Adam sinned? We were "in Adam" so to speak, and participatory in the sin. We reveal that participation via the sinful flesh every time we sin; hence just as the Scriptures say in vs 14 that we may sin in the same manner as Adam, we still sin - regardless if God has laid before us the Law or not.

Paul writes of Adam being "a type of him who was to come."

That means our reconciliation functions the exact same way as our being found sinners.

Christ has stepped in as our New Adam. As the new Head of the human race, what happened with Him with respect to life, death, and resurrection, happened to us all.

Just as we were all "in Adam" in a very real manner (and not just a genetic presence!) at the Fall, so also are we all "in Christ" in a very real manner when He walked on earth. Every human of the human race was there in Him when He lived that perfect life. Being present when Adam fell (and receiving the just condemnation for participation), we are also very present in Christ as He lived.

However, just living a perfect life is not enough. The Word of God states unequivocally the soul that sins shall die. The human race must die for sin. Period.

When Christ hung on the Cross, all humanity - from Adam right down to the billions in the last generation - ALL of us were in there, hanging on that tree in Him. When Christ died, each one of us died with Him, in a very real sense, that could satisfy the Divine justice requirements holding the sinner accountable for their sins.

Romans 5:18 - "So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted the justification of life to all men".

2 Corinthians 514, 15 - "For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this: that one died for all, therefore ALL died; and He died for ALL, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf".

Galatians 2:20 - "I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me".

Christ can accord us a real righteousness, because we were there in a very real sense. Christ's blood can serve as the reconciling atonement, because in a very real sense, that's our blood, showing that we have died the stroke due sin.

All of us shall indeed live again, because we were all there in Christ as He rose triumphantly from the grave.

Everything necessary for our salvation was put into Christ Jesus, because God put us all into Christ Jesus - regardless whether we accept this fact or not.

We all live twice; we will all die twice as well.

We can choose to accept our place and justice done in Christ Jesus - and live, accept our death in Christ, die physically, then live again. Or, we can live, refuse to accept our place in Christ, die, live again, then die permanently.

There is nothing "unfair" about accepting Christ dying on the Cross, because we were there as well.

Vicarious does not mean an individual one-for-one swap. It means in love, Christ included each and every human into his own humanity, just as Adam bore all of us in himself - right down to the very worst of us. And right up to the very best of us - Christ Himself - we all died the the second death.

We all have life in this mortality - because Christ included us into His mortal humanity. We have freedom to choose - because we all died the death. Which resurrection we participate in depends on if we choose to accept that death of sin in us, or choose unbelief - and own up to God for our own sins.

Blessings,

[JoeMo]

Hi Ted,

I generally agree with your post. I am just saying (emphasizing) that salvation truly does not make sense and indeed is not fair in the physical realm. Throwing me in with Adam as a sinner deserving death isn't fair, either (although my own sins do that).

In the spiritual realm - especially where God rules/dwells - it makes perfect sense!

[Ted Oplinger]

Hi Ted,

I generally agree with your post. I am just saying (emphasizing) that salvation truly does not make sense and indeed is not fair in the physical realm. Throwing me in with Adam as a sinner deserving death isn't fair, either (although my own sins do that).

In the spiritual realm - especially where God rules/dwells - it makes perfect sense!

There is a lot about both sides of the coin which, at first blush, appear to be very unfair, unjust, and contrary to logic. Digging deeper as to how a loving God had to set up a plan for the human race where both the whole of the human race could be condemned in one trial, and reconciled in one atonement, while meeting the infinitely high standards of Divine Justice as well as plumb the infinite depths of Divine Mercy - our scrapping about it ought to begin fading away.

As for "lumping us in with Adam" doesn't appear to be fair to the Western mind, but from the Biblical perspective, it makes perfect sense. The writer of Hebrews used to the same concept in Hebrews 7:1-11 to verify the Priesthood of Christ (after the order of Melchizedek) was greater than the priesthood given to Aaron - Levi was "in Abraham" when he (Levi) paid tithes to Melchizedek. Levi was participatory in Abraham.

Blessings,