White-flight

[Stan]

A subject that is touch, real, yet will (probably) never be addressed by the Church.

Truth, if the Gospel does not go to white folks, none of us are going home...

Why do whites feel they are being 'pushed out'?? AND what can be done about it?

[LynnDel]

Do we feel we are being pushed out? This is news to me! I thought that in Christ there was neither male nor female, slave nor free, black nor white. . .

LD

[Nan]

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LynnDel said:

Do we feel we are being pushed out? This is news to me! I thought that in Christ there was neither male nor female, slave nor free, black nor white. . .

LD

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That is in Christ, LynnDel, but if you have read Dr B's latest writings on the topic you will realise that there are still divisions in our earthly dealings with each other. My pragmatic approach is that people should, within sensible reason, go where they are comfortable, whether the church is monotone or rainbow hued. To me the divisions are more of culture and worship style than of colour per se....but that might be just my take.

[Nicodema]

Personally, I have always preferred black churches. They get really intense and joyful. Most white churches are zombiesque.

[Stan]

It is hard to talk about taking the gospel to all groups, with out some feeling that you are talking anti other groups, that is not the intention here.

When I joined the Church, my Church, Calgary Bridgeland, was almost all West-Indian, and what a blessing it was for me. The people closest to my heart were WI.

In the Toronto area, there were about 30 mostly white Churches, now in Toronto I am not sure you would find 30 white people in Church any given Sabbath. Those numbers may be a bit off.

A history, when the West-Indians began moving to Toronto area, a lot of them just quit coming to Church, the Canadian-whites, did not understand that and did not see the need to have West-Indian pastors. AND thought that every person should fit in well into their Churches.. well that just did not work. Eventually, the Conference hired my friend, Pastor Rudy James, the first black preacher in Canada. He was the one who told me the experience. Rudy, passed away a few years ago. Now it has flipped, and the tables are turned and the Canadian-whites are not coming...

Not all groups fit in with others, that does not make one right and one wrong, and we all need to worship together at camp meetings and at other Churches. Our goal is not to make others adopt certain methods of worship, such as making the west Indians adopt the typical Canadian ambiance. BUT there are better examples than this, as it would look like i was racial and it is not.

I think it is the NE Regional Conference AND i am not picking on WI at all. I read not to long ago, or heard from some one there, that the only joining the Church in that conference were West Indians, they are not reaching the American Blacks.

Worship styles are simply different, and we need to reach effectively EACH group. and not expecting them to change in order hear the Gospel.

The phrase 'pushed out' was not mine, when I was in ABC work people would call saying they wanted to quarterlies sent to their home, as they were no longer wanted in Church, I was very critical of that, and irritated as I have a multicultural family, and I was brought up that people who are different than I am add to my life.

BUT the reality is, there is a White Flight, the gospel needs to go to them, and the Church is not doing anything about that. In Southern Cal conference, it was brought up that they need to rent some tents and plant them in the white areas, and bring in preachers to man them and people will come. That worked well in the black areas, but I did not think it would work in the white areas as well. Maybe it would.

We can wish that it would not happen, but it is, and it is not being dealt with, and I am not sure how it can be. AND if people say anything about reaching whites, discrimination is yelled.

[Stan]

LD, I am not sure any of what I said happens in Northern Cal, or in all parts of the North America..

[LynnDel]

Oh, Dr. B. I'd forgotten about Dr. B. I have no personal experience to gauge the reasonableness of what he says - partly because he is so wordy that I choose not to get through his writings, and I usually come away with the conclusion that "he doth protest too much, methinks."

LD

[Stan]

I know this is off topic, but their are other groups we need to reach out to in North America as well...

[ChildofChrist]

Perhaps the old joke of St Peter escorting a new group into Heaven would apply hear. "Sh!! The ____ are over there and they think they are the only group here."

It is sad that everyone doesn't have a burden for 'SOULS' There is no color there but red hearts and gray brain matter.

I guess I just was lucky to been brought up not feeling repelled by my neighbor in church, because of color, dress etc.

One church I attended a couple years back, opened up their basement for a Spanish group to meet while we were having our worship service up stairs. And there were times that we even worshiped together. There was some grumbling though by the old 'membership'. Is it any wonder that on most Sabbaths that only 20 or 30 folks come there, if that?

[LynnDel]

Stan,

I understand more of what you mean now. We were members of a bilingual church for a decade and were greatly outnumbered by the Hispanic members who just kept multiplying (praise the Lord). When our relatives came to visit, many would not go to church with us - instead chose to go to the larger whiter church in town. They didn't like the slightly different culture, some of the program items being delivered in Spanish, and felt uncomfortable with the warm hugs!

I wonder if the problem isn't so much that we're not trying to reach whites, but that whites are more resistant to being reached. Among the white 20-30 year olds of the world (not of the church) I see a great interest in non-Christian religions. Pagan, Wiccan, Muslim and Buddhist converts will proudly tell you all about it. Christians are viewed as the poison of the world. As far as what I've observed, non-white young people aren't so strongly anti-Christian (except those with a Muslim background), and therefore there is greater church growth from those groups.

LD

[Stan]

Who ever we are, red and yellow black and white.. will always feel more comfortable with people similar to us, and that is not just colour related. People tend to feel 'safe' with likeness.

That is something that I really like about forums..... colour, accent, dress, nationality makes no real difference. People are viewed not by what they look like, but what they say.

Telemarketers like to get people from Nebraska as they have a neutral, non offensive accent to most Americans. Imagine someone from the deep south trying to telemarket to those from Boston, it just does not work, and it makes no difference what colour the person is. OR some one with a heavy New England accent trying to telemarket to the Mississippi area. Business people to know to be effective you have to emulate the people you are trying to reach, as it is more effective.

We can say, that is right or that is wrong, BUT people are perishing, and the gospel needs to go to all groups.

[Stan]

an example of sameness.

My white son's best friend is a black lad, he grew up with, they are similar in a lot of ways. HE would not feel as comfortable with a white person fresh from Denmark ( I use that as I am Danish) My son and Paul have a lot in common, likes, language, food, etc etc

The sameness goes way beyond colour. When we travel and find another adventist, we generally feel safer, than if we just met a non-sda. BECAUSE we have more common ground.

I awaiting being 'attacked' on this thread....

[Michelle]

Coming here from MI, I don't see the "white flight" you're talking about, at least in my very tiny corner of the American midwest. There are many different "flavors" of churches in SW MI. Our church was considered the "white" church in our town, but there were many minorities who attended--Filipino, Pakistani, several different African countries--just not "American blacks". They went to the "Black" church in town. However, the Africans came to our church, not the American black church. Very complex.

Our church here has North American expats, Filipina domestic workers, and Chinese. Not too many white SDA in Hong Kong, so hard to comment there! (although many white--they just aren't targeted with any kind of evangelism--all evangelism is in Cantonese--don't know that any expats would come to white-targeted evangelism at all.)

M

[Stan]

I do not think this is a trend out side of some of the bigger cities, but could be wrong.

It is not unusual for both english and french speaking Africans to come to a a non african-american Church..

[darlene]

You know Stan, in our conference we have a church for each of the different ethnic groups. Seems to me we should all be mixed together but, I suppose they feel better with their own people. However, in heaven I think we'll all be mixed together. A real rainbow of colours all equal in God's eyes.

[ChildofChrist]

I agree. Two churches I frequent here in Nashville has Africans in native dress.

In FL one of my best friends is a Haitian and she's French speaking but American educated with a doctorate. She goes wherever her help is need, whether mostly white or strictly French.

When I am sitting in the pew during worship, as long as I have 2" on either side of me, I don't care who's sitting next to me. That is because I am focusing on the message.

Why are you expecting to be attacked, eh, Stan.

How is the St Louis affair going? I just wish I could have been there.

[Stan]

Not in St Louis. <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Thought i would watch in on TV rather than going there, you get close ups that way. <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

We have to do our outreach to reach out. Instead we want people to fit into our box first. crazy....

[bevin]

I am told the phenomona was also extremely visible in England, where the arrival of the West Indian SDA demolished the white SDA population - not that it was ever huge.

What are the factors?

(1) Music - hymns v. callipsos - there is also an age split happening here, not just an ethnic split.

(2) Intensity - I absolutely ABHOR loud shouting preachers who try to get the audience to emotional highs, and to turn off their brains, and yet this style seems very popular amongst many American denominations (White as well as Black), although within SDA'ism is much more common for the Black preachers.

(3) Group membership rituals - did any one else read the fascinating Spectrum article on Pathfinders in this quarter's edition. One observation there was the militarism and badges were a turn ON for the non-white clubs, and a huge turn OFF for the white clubs.

(4) Attitudes towards EGW and theology - unfortunately the spread of the SDA church has often included lying to ignorant people about theology. And I mean lying. A deliberate propagation of information well-known to be false. And now those groups believe the lies they were told, and the SDA church has a huge problem because the educated white SDA know that many of the things held to be certain and true by the non-white SDA are uncertain and false - and neither group is comfortable with the conflict.

Curiously then, the issue, although it manifests itself along color lines, is not actually racism. It is usually because the two groups have deeply held and radically different opinions about some of the core issues in SDA'ism.

Consider the recent Faith and Science discussions - basically the non-white churches said "this is not even an issue for us", where-as in the white churches and for spreading SDA'ism into white communities, it is a huge issue.

Consider the role-of-women discussions - again a huge split.

Consider the 1844 discussions - not even a ripple outside the white churches.

In short, the non-white churches and the white churches simply are at very different points in their lives.

I firmly believe that, as the membership of the Black churches becomes increasing educated both in science, in history, and in theology, they are going to run into the same issues that the white church already has, and then it will be easier for both groups to deal with the issues and with each other.

/Bevin

[Jeannieb43]

Interesting topic....

I agree, Bevin, that the ethnic churches are in a different place in their religious journey than are the Anglo churches. But I think the whole thing is cultural.

Stan, you mentioned putting up a big tent in a white neighborhood to call the people in to an evangelistic meeting. Well, that type of evangelism was pure 19th century; it doesn't work any more. Just for the same reason that mainline Christian churches can't get a turnout for midweek services (or really, even for Sunday church service)--it's because of TV, or because of two-income families, or because kids have more after-school sports events to attend, etc., etc. There's not enough TIME. And church-going gets crowded out.

Formerly, the church was the social center for the family. Nowadays people have other outlets, such as their country clubs or their theater series; they can travel across town faster, so they do it oftener, and thus by the weekend they're too tired to attend church.

The ethnic churches, on the other hand, receive fellowship and even a higher standard of living by attending church. They become "Americanized" or "upper class" by learning the ways of the church. Anglos already have all that. They're tired, and watching TV or playing golf is just a lot easier. So that's what they do.

Satan was a wily guy in plotting all these modern inventions such as TV, etc. This stuff fries our brains, and the stressful workday world wears us out physically--so the devil wins. Nobody goes to church as much any more.

[Nan]

<img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/129933-offtopic2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/129933-offtopic2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/129933-offtopic2.gif" alt="" />

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( I use that as I am Danish)

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Hey that is good to hear - my 25% of Danish blood feels welcome here - the Meyers and the Petersens etc LOL

[Stan]

Jeannie the tent idea did not come from me, but the AA section of the Southern Cal Conference, I agree with you, that it would not work.

Regarding Toronto, London etc, the majority concern over this, came from the West Indians who were concerned about the messages no going to the people who lived there for a number of generations. Truely a mission minded group..

[Gail]

I'm with Darlene here on this one. Our area has not only many ethnic churches but those with personalities based on worship styles. I find it refreshing <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

There is something for everyone within just a few miles

[Stan]

The need to reach out to whites does not mean the work among others has to diminish, in fact it MUST not.

[there buster]

The real issue isn't white flight. As your son's experience demonstrates, racial and ethnic differences are much less important to the next generation.

The issue is cultural. What we've been used to thinking is that a nationality, or an ethnicity, or even a region is a cultural entity. That is still true, but fading. Increasingly, a culture is defined by generation, education, and affluence.

For example, in Britain, the church is 85% black, while the indigenous population is 85% white. The leadership largely mirrors the constituency, both West Indian. Church growth, such as it is, is no longer among West Indians, but drawn from immigrants from Ghana and Nigeria.

Although camoflaged by other factors, the situation in NA is actually quite similar. Growth is among immigrant groups.

Mike Ryan, head of Global Mission, told me personally that our traditional evangelistic methods reach only 3-4% of the general audience. During church-planter assessment, one fellow was a second-generation hispanic, who wanted to plant churches for second generation hispanics. Reason: his generation was leaving, or not joining, the church.

Wherever we look, if people are well-educated, affluent, and under 40, we just don't reach them. Race, ethnicity, nationality, gender-- none of these things matter nearly as much.

This bodes ill for the church. Our work goes best where people are educated least, and where income is lower. And the whole world is striving to be--and increasingly achieving--better educated and more affluent.

In NA and Europe, get away from the large Adventist centers, and younger people are scarce. Where will the church find members in 25 years? Where will our children and grandchildren go to church? Will they?

Unfortunately, aside from puff pieces, this is largely being ignored by leadership. We keep hearing grand tales of traditional evangelism--reaching 3-4% of the general audience. It's not white flight, it's birth dearth.

[bevin]

Quote:

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This bodes ill for the church. Our work goes best where people are educated least, and where income is lower. And the whole world is striving to be--and increasingly achieving--better educated and more affluent.

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I agree.

To reach an educated and reasonableness-valuing community, you must present arguments that stand up to educated and intelligent questioning.

Unfortunately

(a) short-age creationism

( 1844

© too many rules about irrelevant things

(d) anti-women

(e) misrepresenting the life work of EGW

(f) expecting people to follow poor leadership

(g) expecting people to attend irrelevant meetings

*ALL* fail this test.

The SDA church needs to change. The Spectrum article on the Pathfinder club showed that it can be done... but can a significant portion of the organisation do it?

Not while the people in charge are worried about offending the people brought in supporting the status quo...

/Bevin