Robert Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 I’ve notice that in “Origins” posting is not allowed unless it passes the inspection of the moderators of whom both are pro-evolution. Hence I've taken the liberty to post here. That being said, evolution teaches “the survival of the fittest”. What does this mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted July 10, 2005 Moderators Share Posted July 10, 2005 1. I won't speak for Norm, the other moderator, but I am absolutely *not* pro-evolution. My personal belief is that Gid is the Creator. I see my role here as to engage and to challenge everyone on all sides to think, so in some senses my personal views aren't that relevant, but it's not honest to categorise my views (or actions) as pro-evolution. I do have some serious reservations about strict recent creationism, but I also acknowledge that 'with God all things are possible'. 2. I have maintained for a long time that the phrase 'survival of the fittest' is oxymoronic: 'fittest' is defined as 'best able to survive', so 'survival of the fittest' boils down to 'survival of the survivors'. It's a phrase that's heartily disliked by professional biologists. They prefer to talk about 'natural selection' - the idea that the organisms that have an advantage either in breeding more or dying less (i.e. passing on their genes) will, over time, tend to dominate the population in an area and displace species that are less well adapted that compete with them. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted July 10, 2005 Moderators Share Posted July 10, 2005 PS You'd be very welcome to post this question in the Origins forum. Did you try? Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amelia Posted July 10, 2005 Share Posted July 10, 2005 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> Gid is the Creator <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Who is Gid? hehehe <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/tomato.gif" alt="" /> Quote <p><span style="color:#0000FF;"><span style="font-weight:bold;"><span style="font-style:italic;">"Do not use harmful words, but only helpful words, the kind that build up and provide what is needed, so that what you say will do good to those who hear you."</span></span> Eph 4:29</span><br><br><img src="http://banners.wunderground.com/weathersticker/gizmotimetemp_both/US/OR/Fairview.gif" alt="Fairview.gif"> Fairview Or</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bevin Posted July 10, 2005 Share Posted July 10, 2005 “The survival of the fittest” is an extremely oversimplified catch-phrase to help you think about a complex situation. Parent's pass genes onto their children. Parents and Societies also pass on taught skills. In any given environment some of these genes and some of these skills may increase or decrease the likelyhood of the recipient producing a third generation. This third generation will also receive some variation of the second generation's genes and taught skills. If a gene or a skill significantly increases the likelyhood of the individual producing the next generation, then the incidence of that gene or skill will tend to increase. Since both genes and taught skills mutate, and since the population pool is quite large, particular genes and skills, perhaps in combination with others, can increase in incidence - or indeed in raw numbers. This increase in both absolute and relative numbers of individuals sharing a particular set of genes and/or skills is sometimes refered to, usually by people who don't understand evolutionary theory, as "Survival of the fittest". A gene combination or skill set can cause it more unlikely that the individual produce grandchildren and the trait can decrease in incidence. A change in the environment (for example, a migration from Africa to to Northern Europe) can cause a gene (for example, sickle-cell anemia) to change from increasing to decreasing the likelyhood of grandchildren. This explains, for instance, the prevalence of sickle-cell anemia amongst people of African descent. In Africa it is a positive benefit because of its resistance to malaria. In areas where malaria is much less common it is a negative because of other effects. /Bevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted July 10, 2005 Moderators Share Posted July 10, 2005 Re: " . . .the survival of the fittest. . ." The above is a phrasee commonly used by people who lack a basic understanding of evolution. A prefered phrase is "survival of the fit", and there is a major difference between the two. As has been pointed out, evolutionists prefer other verbalizations than survival of the fit. Even it is used primarily due to its popularity. Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted July 10, 2005 Share Posted July 10, 2005 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> I’ve notice that in “Origins” posting is not allowed unless it passes the inspection of the moderators <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> I'm concerned that will turn a lot of would-be participants there off. Time will tell. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted July 10, 2005 Share Posted July 10, 2005 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> the idea that the organisms that have an advantage either in breeding more or dying less <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> This is why liberals' days are limited. They are more likely to use birth control (not breed) and abort (die more freaquently). More conservative groups like Catholics, Mormons and Islamics will increase in population. That is natural selection at work. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted July 10, 2005 Moderators Share Posted July 10, 2005 Shane, thanks for starting my day with a good laugh. Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 10, 2005 Author Share Posted July 10, 2005 Because of the fall, "everything" [humans, animals, plant life, etc] "fears death" and hence these life forms do whatever is necessary to continue life. Hence we are told that things evolve. Paul calls this preoccupation with self "slavery/bondage" something Christ can set us free of: Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he [Christ] himself likewise partook of the same nature, that through death he might destroy him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, [:"red"]and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage.[/] [Hebrews 2:14,15] Personally I see those who justify evolution as justifying sin [selfishness]. The question is can Christ "deliver" humans from this bondage of preoccupation with self. According to the Bible yes: Rev 12:11 And they [humans] overcame him [the devil] by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. This concept was seen in the early Christian church: Luke 14:26 “If any one comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. 27 Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple....33 So therefore, whoever of you does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple. Does this mean I should hate my own relatives? No, we are told not to hate [see Matt 5:22]. Then what is Christ's point? Our natures are self-seeking....We love those who love us back [see Luke 6:32]. Shall we, through the grace of God, permit our natural love of self to dominate us and strike out in anger and revenge? Not according to the Bible: What causes wars, and what causes fighting among you? Is it not your passions that are at war in your members? [James 4:1] Our instinct to survive at whatever cost comes from within...it comes from our sinful natures. Instead of seeking to save life by taking life God says we are, "not [to] resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." In other words you are to "Love your enemies." So the problem I have with evolution is that it makes God responsible for “sin” [our preoccupation with self]. The truth is far from this distortion. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted July 10, 2005 Moderators Share Posted July 10, 2005 OK, I understand your position and the argument, and agree with it as far as it goes: if evolution is used to justify selfishness, then that's wrong. But that's a misuse of evolution - is it fair to judge evolution based on those who misuse it? We try very hard to avoid Christianity being judged on the basis of those who misuse it... Point is: (a) only humans are conscious, so only they can even begin to think about doing things that would improve their chances of being selected as 'the fittest' and ( selfishness is very likely *not* well adapted to survival. I'm not an evolutionist, but there is serious discussion in 'evolutionary psychology' (a field of which I'm pretty suspicious) of why altruism and care for others evolved, and it seems clear that these traits, not selfishness, lead to better outcomes for a population. You have to understand that evolution occurs at a population level, not an individual level. See, here is a perfect example of the problem we face here. I'm not here to defend evolution. I *am* here to try to ensure that Christians make credible, coherent arguments. However well intentioned, Rob's rant fundamentally misunderstands evolution, and uses it to make an unrelated point. That kind of argument brings Christianity into disrepute. But several people seem unable to understand what I'm trying to do, and want to label me as pro-evolution. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bevin Posted July 10, 2005 Share Posted July 10, 2005 I agree with Bravus's post, except for one point. "(a) only humans are conscious, so only they can even begin to think about doing things that would improve their chances of being selected as 'the fittest' " I disagree - consciousness is not an on-off state, even computers are somewhat self-aware, and my dog is very definitely self-aware. /Bevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted July 10, 2005 Moderators Share Posted July 10, 2005 Gah, yeah, I should have said 'self-conscious', but apparently you'd disagree there too, at least in the case of your faithful mutt! How about 'sufficiently conscious to understand the theory of evolution and actively try to outcompete their rivals'? <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> And BTW Rob, humans competing with other humans is irrelevant from an evolutionary perspective - same gene pool. On the other hand, if we can find a way to act less selfishly toward every other lifeform on earth, that'd be a good outcome... Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 10, 2005 Author Share Posted July 10, 2005 In your view of humanity’s beginnings...is there room for Adam and Eve in their sinless state? If not when did our fallen nature come into play? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted July 10, 2005 Share Posted July 10, 2005 The purpose of evolution is to cast doubt on the Word of God. We are the people that claim knowledge of the Great Controversy. That is the big picture. There is a great controversy that started between Christ and Satan in heaven and was brought to this earth. Satan has been trying to cast doubt on the Word of God since the conflict began. God called forth His Seventh-day Adventist church just a few years before Darwin published his "Orgins Of The Species". Our mission is, and has been, to prepare the world to meet their Creator. From Genesis to Revelation, God is the Creator and the seventh day of the week is a memorial to Him. One major problem with evoltion is that it seperates death from sin. If dinosuars and man did not live together that means that dinosuars were dying before man ever sinned. Yet Scripture tells us the wages of sin is death. There was no death before Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit and we know that happened about 6,000 years ago. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 10, 2005 Author Share Posted July 10, 2005 Quote: If dinosuars and man did not live together that means that dinosuars were dying before man ever sinned. Yet Scripture tells us the wages of sin is death. There was no death before Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit and we know that happened about 6,000 years ago. Good point: Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bevin Posted July 10, 2005 Share Posted July 10, 2005 The theory of evolution is a scientific attempt to explain and predict what our world is. The Scriptures tell us the wages on Man's sin is Man's death - it says nothing about the death of animals. Did you ever wonder how Adam and Eve understood the concept of 'you shall surely die' if they had never seen any animal die? Did you ever wonder what happened when Adam walked on an ant? /Bevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted July 10, 2005 Share Posted July 10, 2005 Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged. 1 Cor. 2:14 Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 10, 2005 Author Share Posted July 10, 2005 Quote: bevin said: The Scriptures tell us the wages on Man's sin is Man's death - it says nothing about the death of animals....Did you ever wonder what happened when Adam walked on an ant? So animals are immortal? Please.... Death didn't exist before the fall. So your claim here of the death of an ant is without evidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 10, 2005 Author Share Posted July 10, 2005 Quote: Shane said: Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged. 1 Cor. 2:14 The more I study the Bible the more I realize that I must be guided by God to understand its pages. I find the Bible extremely intriguing. It is filled with perplexing paradoxes and metaphors. Hence, without God’s Spirit to guide the Bible cannot be truly understood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bevin Posted July 11, 2005 Share Posted July 11, 2005 Quote: Death didn't exist before the fall. So your claim here of the death of an ant is without evidence. Scripture, please... /Bevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 11, 2005 Author Share Posted July 11, 2005 Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bevin Posted July 11, 2005 Share Posted July 11, 2005 Quote: Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread [:"red"]to all men[/], because all sinned... not to animals.... Try again /Bevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted July 11, 2005 Share Posted July 11, 2005 Taken from another thread: Selected Messages Book III pgs 351-352 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> You try to reason with these men, but your time is lost. They will exercise their power of ridicule even upon the Bible. They even become mockers, and they would be astonished if you put it to them in that light. <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Just some food for thought... Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 11, 2005 Author Share Posted July 11, 2005 Again, are you suggesting that animals do not die? 1 John 5:19 We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one. Paul calls him, "The god of this world" The author of sin and death has touched "everything" in this world and not just mankind. Common sense prevails! Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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