Neil D Posted July 14, 2005 Share Posted July 14, 2005 Tagging on: As a layperson, having been on the church board and involved in discussion of a convicted sex offender wanting to come back to church...I have to say that this is a very complexed and not a un-difficult issue. The church where I was at, discussed the degree of the conviction, and in this case, this person was a one-time offender who got caught, and what the church was going to do about it. It amazed me that the church was willing to appoint several males [about 10] who would be responsible for him while at church. It also amazed me that there were 10 guys that would be responsible for him. Duties included that he would not be allowed to have any offices that involved children, nor be allowed to go to the bathroom alone. How did this affect the church in general? Well, only the board members and these 10 men were allowed to have the knowledge that there was this sex offender. We did not want the church to become a church where sex offenders were allowed to come and appear reformed. But we also wanted to be aware of the privicy issues for the sex offender, as we also did not want this broadcast, but we also wanted our children safe. I believed that women with children were told as we did not have that many women with small children attending the small church [This has been several years ago so memory is a bit fuzzy on this part]. Looking back on this situation, I would concure with Greg that any sex offender, desiring to come to church, needs to allow the information to be broadcast thruout the church. He /she needs to have people responsible for this person's whereabouts at all times within the church, watched for signs of the possible offense reoccuring. But on the other side, there is a need for some privacy as sexual offenders may not be preditory, ie a single case of rape as opposed to child molestation. And when I say the need for some privacy, I mean that not every person needs to know the details . Otherwise, of what use is church/fellowship/gathering of fellow Christians? Some sins NEED to be more public than others and only to some people. Having said this, give me a moment to put on some fire resistant underwear.... Ok, I am ready for some heat from these statements. Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 And the Pharisees and their scribes began grumbling at His disciples, saying, “Why do you eat and drink with the tax-gatherers and sinners?” 31 And Jesus answered and said to them, “It is not those who are well who need a physician, but those who are sick. 32 “I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.” If I had committed some sexual crime and had done my time (in perverted human terms) and had God's grace in my life, the last place I would want to be at is in a church full of hypocrites. In fact it is the "self-righteous" - those who have deceived themselves that they are measuring up - who will come under the wrath of God's law. As Jesus said, "The first will be last and the last first." Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasd Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 It is hard to imagine the responsible argument that required the 'stewardship' of the ekklesia to expose its charge to unnecessary risk and harm; be it financial or, more importantly, be it the children. Were the repentant "offender" properly chaperoned, it may be that he would be welcomed to affiliate and to take communion, as any other member of the general community might. That said, it is also hard to imagine the repentant "offender" insisting s/he remain, or be put on the rolls after having been made aware of the potential risk and/or burden involved being carried on the books as a member of the .Org. Besides, the above being said, Jesus was judgement proof -- having not where to lay His head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny J Goff Posted July 23, 2005 Author Share Posted July 23, 2005 The offense was against his 2 female children when they were below 5 years of age. . . .and he was convicted in a court of law. . .BUT that is not for me or you to decide. . .guilt or innocent. . .There is ALWAYS someone who thinks they are innocent. . .that has already been done. . .our discussion is HOW ARE WE TO FELLOWSHIP this type of person not the circumstances. . . Quote It's impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny J Goff Posted July 23, 2005 Author Share Posted July 23, 2005 I appreciate your comments. . .indeed it will not only be morally, socially and financially devastating to our church (and all faiths) if we do not have IN PLACE solid statements and polices to show our position and what we are doing to protect our children and others from this type of behavior. Please understand I am not on a personal vendetta against the individual I am speaking about. . .yes I was very angry when this occurred 10 plus years ago and God holding me back kept me from taking justice into my own hands. . .this happened to my nieces. . if it were my own children (but are not they all our own children) I don't know if I could have dealt with it as I did. . .I might be on the hill in Walla Walla State Prison. . .I have forgiven the offender but as many have said I CANNOT FORGET that it can (and has before and after the offense) happened again. . .This forum is not about individual cases. . .but about the problem as a whole. . .when we bring up cases individually we muddy the waters. . .lets come to a consensus with emotional bias. . .I have a Baptist minister friend who has been going through a sex offender suit in Spokane and it has been 10 long years with probably 5 more yet to come. . .all this time damaging his congregation AND the community at large. . . .when they are done they will basically sign the church facility over to the victim. . . .what a waste of time, funds AND GOODWILL!! I believe we need to stand firm in our convictions to STOP AND PREVENT this problem in our churches. You will always have opponents who believe all should be forgiven without restraints. . .I am not one of them. The future problems that can arise are just to great. . .when I look at the lives of the two girls involved in this abuse. . . .I HAVE TO SPEAK. . .not just for them but for all the kids have been the victim of an offenders selfish act. . .they will bear the scars FOREVER while here on earth. . .Sex Offense robs the victim of so many things. . .happiness, self worth, enjoyment of marriage. . .yes some can overcome but some cannot. . .thanks Quote It's impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barbara Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 One thing the Walla Walla College Church has done to protect the children in the Sabbath school wing is to require back ground checks of the people who teach, greet and play piano. As a victim of sexual abuse I am so glad I forgave the abuser and that he asked for me to forgive him. My life turned around after that. I am much happier now and have no fear that he will ever do it again. I have seen the way Christ has changed him. Just as some victims can over come while some can not I believe that some of the offenders can change/overcome, but only with God help. Quote .....Love others as well as you love yourself. Matt 22:39 (The Message Bible) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 Quote: I HAVE TO SPEAK. . .not just for them but for all the kids have been the victim of an offenders selfish act. . .they will bear the scars FOREVER while here on earth. . . I have someone in my family who was involved with a pedophile....It was years later that I learned of this. The perpetrator is now dead, but he effected the family member. No one knew...looking back now it was quite evident. This unnamed boy was about 10...the man about 65. That boy is now a grown man doing time for something stupid while under the influence of LSD. But in addition to this felony he now has the title “sex offender”. The problem though is that really is not the case, but that’s how the judicial system saw it. About 10 to 12 years ago I received a call from my sister. So as not to name family members I’ll call this boy “John”….My sister had called for advice after she had talked to my mother. It turns out that John had masturbated to some porn mags with her 9-year-old daughter in the room. At the time John was 17…he was babysitting. My sister asked me what she should do…..She didn’t want him locked up, but she did want to scare him using the law. At the time John and I weren’t on best terms so I told my sister to do what she thought best. Well looking back I believe that was a big mistake. Anyway the “system” didn’t see a 17-year-old young man who needed some counseling…they saw someone to lock up and they did. Now, as I stated, he has two things against him. When he gets out it will hard enough with his felony, but now he has this “sex offender” thing over his head. In my zeal I thought I was doing the right thing, but now I realize it was dead wrong. We must be extremely careful whom we label “sex offender”….Or shall we ruin another life? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fran Posted July 25, 2005 Share Posted July 25, 2005 I have a few questions. Suppose a person is fairly certain some one in a leadership position is a sex offender and do not tell anyone, thus most likely leaving children at risk. Suppose this person just decided to remain quiet. 1. What is this person's responsibility as a Christian? 2. What is this person's responsibility as a citizen of the community? 3. If this person remains quiet, are they at fault too, should the sex offender be a repeat offender? 4. What if this person does all they can to keep this quiet? This is not about anyone in particular, just 4 general questions. I would like to hear thoughts about this situation should it ever happen. Quote The greatest want of the world is the want of men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true & honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty..., men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.{Ed 57.3} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fran Posted July 26, 2005 Share Posted July 26, 2005 I guess I will answer with my opinions. 1. This person is responsible for telling the leaders, and if they do not act, they must move up the ladder because every child in the congregation is that persons child in the family of God.. 2. If this person is *fairly* certain sex abuse has occurred has a responsibility to report it to the authorities for them to investigate 3. Yes, because they knew and did nothing, they are guilty too because they could have stopped the repeat of a crime. 4. I better not post that answer. Maybe they could be bunk mates together in the slammer! These are real circumstances that many of us will run across in our walk through life here on this earth. The problem with Corporations needs to be solved for sure. They need to address the subject with fear and trembling. My point being, that we as individuals need to make right decisions also. At MBA too many adults knew about it. Too many students knew it was happening (5 is too many) and some complained, but an adult made the choice to be quiet. It starts with the one person that knew. They told, but nothing happened. They should have notified the authorities right then and there. Their silence makes them also guilty for the actions of these teachers after that fact. We would not have to deal with mega bucks being awarded if something had been done way back when. Each and every person has a responsibility. If you tell and nothing happens, move on up. This goes for child abuse in the homes, schools, businesses and churches. The solution starts with you and me. If we did our duty there would be far fewer mega buck situations plus the great benefit of far fewer victims Just my two cents. If we do our duty the corporations would definitely be in better shape and we would have far fewer people with screwed up lives. Quote The greatest want of the world is the want of men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true & honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty..., men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.{Ed 57.3} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny J Goff Posted July 27, 2005 Author Share Posted July 27, 2005 All good points. . .YOU DON'T HAVE A CHOICE. . .to report or not. . .it is not morally, spirtually or socially acceptable to remain quiet. . .it's not easy and is a little scary. . .but better safe than sorry. . .bring the issue to whoever has authority and let a group make the call whether there is a problem or not. . .remember the kids. . .ZERO TOLERANCE. . . we are not talking witch hunt. . .be sure of your facts then follow the correct chain of command. . not gossip but action. . . Quote It's impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fran Posted July 28, 2005 Share Posted July 28, 2005 Thank you! I agree. Quote The greatest want of the world is the want of men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true & honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty..., men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.{Ed 57.3} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barbara Posted July 28, 2005 Share Posted July 28, 2005 Danny I am sorry Zero tolerance doesn't work for me very much. I have seen close hand what happens to some one accused of sexual abuse in our schools. Where several kids didn't like the teacher and accused the teacher of Sexual stuff. After the teacher was dismissed from his job the truth came out that the girls had lied. This person can not get a job teaching all because some girls in his class didn't like him. Where is the justice in that. If I had told some one what had happen to me I would have ruined a family and God only know what would have happened to me. I would have been tossed back into the system and tossed around to a few more home to be tried out to see if some one wanted me. There was no way in hell I was going to go though that experience again. Lucky for me the person who abused me realized what he did was wrong and I learned that I didn't have to do thing to encourage him to do that. Yes you heard me I was so desperate to be loved I didn't care how I got it. It made me feel special. I knew it was wrong and I could have said no and Thank God the person knew what he was doing was wrong and asked for Gods forgiveness and never touched me that way again. This happen after I was adopted. Before I was adopted I was living with my grandparents. I don't remember being told I was loved or being held. I was left on my own for a full day. I ran around the neighborhood. I remember being thrown against a wall by my grandpa. I had an aunt would really didn't want me around. When they decided they couldn't care for me any more I was sent to live with an relatives that fought a lot and who's kid where interest in what the other sex looked like and so was I. It was nice when some one said they want to try me out to see if I would fit into their family. I was farmed out to several different family. For one reason or another I was sent back. I started hating myself and had great anger about want was happening to me. I was really anger that know one wanted me or loved me. I was surprised to find out when I arrived at my adopted family ranch that it was not just to try me out I was there to stay for good. I learned from my adopted family that no mater what I did they loved me. I was not damaged by what happened and nor am I bitter about it. Bother me and my abuser grew in our Christian walk and forgave each other. I saw my abuser change and become a loving and wonderful person who love his family and God very much. For years I made myself be the person everyone else want me to be and it about destroyed me. My second year in college I started to have a break down. My then boy friend want to take a break from the relationship and I was left wondering if this break was ever going to end. I finally had it told him it was over that I was moving on. I have never felt so free to be who I wanted to me. But by then I t was too late grade wise to recover and I wasn't able to come back to college for six months. Let me tell you that six month break was the best thing that could have happened to be. I learned to be me. I took 3 classes though correspondence. I got A's and B's. I was able to figure out what classes in College I would be good at. I worked for my parents had to earn to go on a trip with them. I thank God for every Bump in the road of my life I have hit. I have learned to look at the inside of a person not just what the world sees. Quote .....Love others as well as you love yourself. Matt 22:39 (The Message Bible) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted July 28, 2005 Share Posted July 28, 2005 Quote: I have seen close hand what happens to some one accused of sexual abuse in our schools. Where several kids didn't like the teacher and accused the teacher of Sexual stuff. After the teacher was dismissed from his job the truth came out that the girls had lied. This person can not get a job teaching all because some girls in his class didn't like him. Where is the justice in that. I, too, have seen devestating effects of baseless gossip and rumors on teachers. I know of a teacher who, during the course of a school board policy dispute, was accused by a schoolboard member of "innappropriate touching". There was far more going on during this school board policy dispute, but this accusation came during this dispute as a side issue. Praise the Lord that what the school board member THOUGHT she saw, was done in full view of the parents who were out of her view. Needless to say, that school board member had major problems and was not only dismissed off the school board, she was not allowed to have any "board" offices for a long time. She couldn't handle that and has since moved her membership. As for the teacher, the accusation came under full review. During that time, his stress was tremendous, being accused and not knowing what it was he did wrong. Teachers who play with the kids are valued assets of the extended family. They rough house and wrestle with the boys and tickle the girls [when they initiate it]. It is a very valuable part of helping kids to have good healthy senses of themselves. That experience has changed his teaching, and now, he does not wrestle with the kids nor do much in the way of ticklng them. I wonder how many kids are leave his class not realizing how much they are loved, or feeling like they are pirias [sp] not being held and reassured that they are loved. A tool has been removed from this teacher's ability to create self confidence in the child. Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted July 28, 2005 Moderators Share Posted July 28, 2005 Re: " . . . tickle the girls [when they initiate it]." Sorry. Wrong. Don't do it. Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted July 28, 2005 Share Posted July 28, 2005 Quote: Gregory Matthews said: Re: " . . . tickle the girls [when they initiate it]." Sorry. Wrong. Don't do it. By whose standards? There is appropriate touching/tickling and in this case, was done in front of the approving parents. It was NOT an inappropriate touch...But our society has made many things, like this, litigous.... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 28, 2005 Share Posted July 28, 2005 Quote: Gregory Matthews said: Re: " . . . tickle the girls [when they initiate it]." Sorry. Wrong. Don't do it. Society is becoming paranoid....I say shoot now ask questions later...huh, Greg? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amelia Posted July 29, 2005 Share Posted July 29, 2005 In many many cases, tickling is a sick game used by pedophiles. Tickling can also be a form of torture. <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/icon_smile_sick.gif" alt="" /> Quote <p><span style="color:#0000FF;"><span style="font-weight:bold;"><span style="font-style:italic;">"Do not use harmful words, but only helpful words, the kind that build up and provide what is needed, so that what you say will do good to those who hear you."</span></span> Eph 4:29</span><br><br><img src="http://banners.wunderground.com/weathersticker/gizmotimetemp_both/US/OR/Fairview.gif" alt="Fairview.gif"> Fairview Or</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted July 29, 2005 Moderators Share Posted July 29, 2005 Amelia, exactly right. There is no place for a teacher/caregiver to engage in such with children under their care. Even if innocent, and often not, it is simply to dangerous, and indicates a caregiver who is out of touch with reality. Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted July 29, 2005 Share Posted July 29, 2005 In regard to people, Gregory, there is a need to be touched [and I am talking about friendly, reasurring, non-sexual touch]. This type of touch is basic for all humans. It is a part of who we are ane. Elizabeth Kubler-Ross explains it in her book, On Death and Dying. In pschocolgy, there are experiments that show that primates who are not touched grow up to be dysfunctional, ie fearful, nervious behavior. When a child becomes aquainted with you, and feels safe he/she will play with you. Playing in the form of tickling/wrestling is an appropriate as it is a learning behavior and a part of growing up and a part of reasurring the person that he is all is well with him and the world. It is a form of communication that conveys care and love. In the teaching setting, this is a tool to be used for behavior, reassurance, and learning. Your comments, Gregory, are out of touch [so to speak] with implications of learning thru doing, and touch. But in the context of sexual intimacy, your comments are right on. Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barbara Posted July 29, 2005 Share Posted July 29, 2005 Quote: Gregory Matthews said: Amelia, exactly right. There is no place for a teacher/caregiver to engage in such with children under their care. Even if innocent, and often not, it is simply to dangerous, and indicates a caregiver who is out of touch with reality. Okay than I guess I am just out of touch with reality then. I want my babysiter to play with my kids. I played with my nephews when I took care of them I tickled them, held them when they would fall down and hugged them and cared for them Like their mother did. I want my children to enjoy their time apart from me. I want my babysitter to care for my children like I do. Why on earth would I want to hire a caretaker who would just sit and watch my kids instead of playing with them, cuddle with them when reading a book and comfort them with huggs and kisses when they are hurt. . I never want my children to feel that no one care about them. I have been there and it not fun. Quote .....Love others as well as you love yourself. Matt 22:39 (The Message Bible) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted July 29, 2005 Moderators Share Posted July 29, 2005 Re: "I want my babysiter to play with my kids. I played with my nephews when I took care of them I tickled them, held them when they would fall down and hugged them and cared for them Like their mother did. I want my children to enjoy their time apart from me. I want my babysitter to care." Folks let us seperate what is good, from what is not: Playing with children, as a generality is good. Of course you would want your baby sitter to do so. But, there are some forms of play that are not good. Touching children is good. But there are some forms of touch that should not be used on children, and is not good. Tickiling is the focus of my comment. In general it is not good. It is not good becase it is commonly used by people who sexually molest children. It is not used because it is used by people who want to hurt children in a manner that many will not see as inapproprite. Don't suggest that because I come down hard on tickiling that I am agains play with children, and agains touch. These can be good, but they also can be inapproprite. One who tickles, more often than not, is inappropriate. Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barbara Posted July 29, 2005 Share Posted July 29, 2005 Well I guess I should stop tickling and tell my kid not to tickle too then. Oh and I better forbid rolling around with them on the floor too and not let them climb all over Paul and I either. Is there any other type of play I should not be doing with my kids? Quote .....Love others as well as you love yourself. Matt 22:39 (The Message Bible) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted July 29, 2005 Share Posted July 29, 2005 I remmber well the story in DA of the leper who comes to Jesus saying "If you want to, you can make me whole." And Jesus said " I will" and placed His hands upon him and the leper became one no more. In the book, On Death and Dying, there are some rather poinant [sp] storys where people craved the human touch, a hug, the touch of a hand. Our society has become so afraid of legal action due mainly to INAPPROPRIATE touch, that it is simplilar to say "Don't bother touching anyone." with the unsaid part "lest you be sued". The problem becomes when individuals are not touched, they feel that they are not worthy and their self is damage. Teachers are cautioned to avoid hugging due to the POSSIBLITY of it being concidered inappropriate or miss interpreted. The professional community has become aloof and doesn't know how to be personable...The result is while we may do our primary jobs, ie minstry, teach knowledge, heal, we may send the unintentional message that while you are recieving these things, "you are just a job to me. I really don't care about you, so get used to it, no matter how nice I am." We now isolate people in the midst of crowds all because of the litigious nature of the American system... And the inappropriate touching, usually associated with sexual misconduct, is sensationalized by people who become convictd peophiles, it makes us extremely cautious to use APPROPRIATE touching to convey those necessary feelings of self worth and reassuance. Of course there is INAPPROPRIATE TOUCHING that gets heard on the radio and TV where someone was dammaged forever emotionally....but equally and less known are the people who are dying for a human touch. Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amelia Posted July 29, 2005 Share Posted July 29, 2005 call me paranoid or whatever, but in todays society Id do a thorough background check on any babysitter before letting him or her kiss, hug, roughhouse or tickle my kids. Quote <p><span style="color:#0000FF;"><span style="font-weight:bold;"><span style="font-style:italic;">"Do not use harmful words, but only helpful words, the kind that build up and provide what is needed, so that what you say will do good to those who hear you."</span></span> Eph 4:29</span><br><br><img src="http://banners.wunderground.com/weathersticker/gizmotimetemp_both/US/OR/Fairview.gif" alt="Fairview.gif"> Fairview Or</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted July 30, 2005 Share Posted July 30, 2005 Quote: Barbara said: Well I guess I should stop tickling and tell my kid not to tickle too then. Oh and I better forbid rolling around with them on the floor too and not let them climb all over Paul and I either. Is there any other type of play I should not be doing with my kids? Barbara, I perceive your post to be made somewhat out of frustration as others give voice to their fears of the risk taken in a world largely gone over the hill, so to speak, when it comes to selfishness exercised by the many that have no moral consideration for any, including the ones least likely to be able to defend themselves. There is no doubt in my mind the loving and caring manner of which you speak is a most important part of a child's ideal for growth in confidence in a world, to a large extent, gone berserk. But that doesn't make the child's need any less. It merely points out the reality, and greater responsibility of the parent or caregiver, to see that the child receives all the necessary safeguards for a happy and secure lifetime. After all, no amount of joyfully proper interplay will make up for the moment of indiscretion allowed in the life of the child taken advantage of by the person that was above suspicion, entrusted while still subject to the uncontrolled passions of the flesh. Just a note here about how one might receive more secure activity in the world of social intercourse as well as health in the medical sphere. Of the principles espoused by the Scriptures, as well as the Spirit of Prophecy, the most important does not appear to me to be, "Make sure you follow all of the rule correctly". It seems to me to be, [:"red"] "Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding." [/] Proverbs 3:5 KJV [:"red"] The LORD is my strength and my shield; My heart trusts in Him, and I am helped; Therefore my heart exults, And with my song I shall thank Him. [/] Psalm 28:7 Keep looking up! NASB Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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