Pope & Harry Potter

[Dr. Shane]

Pope criticises Harry Potter

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In one response, dated March 2003, he wrote in German: "It is good that you enlighten us on the Harry Potter matter, for these are subtle seductions that are barely noticeable, and precisely because of that have a deep effect and corrupt the Christian faith in souls even before it could properly grow."

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[Neil D]

Ok, my aim is to bring this to a discussion...

We all know that the HP books are fictionalized heavily, right? Even the witchcraft and the wizardry is fiction, popular fiction. The books deal heavelly with relationships, along with a heavy dose of fun wizardry....

Does this cause you to ...........

1] shun the books?

2]proclaim them as unfit for reading consumption?

3] Agree with your peers that they should not be read even tho you secretly read them to find out what the fuss is all about?

4]Only want people who are 10 years and older to read them as only those can understand them as they should be understood

5] Ignore the whole danged thing as it is too confusing

6] think that there is more appropriate reading for children and thus, discover you have a secret meglomania desire to control all reading for all children and adults

[Bravus]

Um, you missed: Allow your children to read them, and read them yourself both because they're fun (and teach some valuable moral lessons in surprisingly sophisticated ways) and because this allows you to knowledgably discuss them with your children. <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I think this is a huge piece that is often forgotten - parents need to invest the time to understand and interact with their children around whatever media they consume, including TV and games. That doesn't mean 'anything goes' in terms of what kids are allowed to watch and read, of course - there are still clear limits - but it means the decisions are made intelligently. And finally, inculcating a love of reading in children is also no small achievement.

By the way, it was the current Pope Benedict who wrote the letters, but it was back when he was Cardinal Ratzinger. It's worth noting that he wrote them in a gracious letter to the author of a book condeming the Harry Potter books, so he was reacting rather than initiating, and was probably more being nice to the author than making a major doctrinal pronouncement... (I assume he hasn't read them <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />)

And before someone misunderstands me, no, I'm *not* saying 'you have to read something before you can judge it' as a universal principle. There are lots of books I already know I don't need in my head, and even more TV programs and movies. We're talking about choosing children's books for children here. And by the way, the Lemony Snicket books are great too!

[Clio]

Neal -

The HP books are not allowed in my home. I have read the first two, and it is important that everyone understand many of the rituals in the HP books described the author are NOT, I repeat, NOT fictional.

Clio

[Bravus]

DG - first up, you basically responded to what I explicitly said I was *not* saying: that it's always necessary to read something in order to judge it.

Second, you *assume* the Harry Potter books are bad throughout your post without providing any evidence, or even stating an opinion. *Why* are they bad? *Why* are they banned in Adventist schools?

[Neil D]

Clio- I may be 30 years from my satanic roots, but I do know that the stuff in HP is truely fictionalized. And since J.K Rowlings, the author of the HP series has also said that the witchcraft in the book is fictionalized, I don't know where you are coming from...

Bravus has said-

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*Why* are they banned in Adventist schools?

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and I can give an truely good answer to this question and one that I think for Adventist schools is a legitament reason. However, in the spirit of co-operation, I will give Doug a good bit of time to answer. Unless he wants me to jump into this....

[Clio]

She may have changed the words a little, but the forms are fairly accurate. Accurate enough to be very dangerous.

Also, you know as well as I know that there are various "schools" of witchcraft. There are those based on the "hedge craft" of the wise women and the hedge wizards of the medieval times, there are those based upon the mystery religions, and then there are the Aleister Crowley's writings to name just a few...

What is not often seen are the... right-hand path writings and it appears, not just to me, but to a number of others with more expertise than I have, that while Ms. Rowling does not portray all dark paths, she does accurately portray SOME dark paths and rituals.

There is enough truth there in the outlining of rituals to allow one to put together a ritual of sufficient accuracy as to grant the Adversary and his minions to have spiritual authority in the life of the one "playing" in the realm of HP.

Of course Ms. Rowling is going to say her witchcraft in these books is fictionalized. She's not about to lose the entire Christian contingent that does buy her books because it's "fiction". Nor is she going to market them as a primer on spell-casting for the "right-hand" path.

The difference between the left and right hand paths being that the left is satanic (seeing it as "evil" or "bad") and the right is Luciferian (seeing it as "white magick", "good", or following the "light").

With a background in the workings of the Adversary, you must also know that the only *real* stricture on how rituals and spellcasting is done is that "the whole of the law be do as thou wilt an ye harm none". Other than that there is HUGE diversity in how rituals are worked.

The only fictionalization that I saw in the two books I read was she changed the wording of the spells to conform to her storyline.

Edited to add: A well trained magick practitioner will often *write their own rituals* within the parameters of what they want to accomplish...

Clio

[Neil D]

Witchcraft and Harry Potter

Witchcraft and Harry Potter

The Harry Potter books are evil and Satanic. That's Hogwarts...I mean Hogwash!

With the announcement of the release date for the next Harry Potter book, the debate over its moral and religious implications has been revived. Christians are arguing that J.K Rowlings's fictional tales are actually filled with true and accurate information on witchcraft, and that children will start casting real spells. Such things are Satanic and cannot be allowed. Parents are protesting and books are being banned across the country.

As a Wiccan and a witch, I felt the need to make a statement:

The Harry Potter books have nothing to do with real Witchcraft

The only "real" witchcraft elements in the books, are the real stereotypes that have dogged Witchcraft for decades. Flying around on broomsticks, pointed witches hats, and the shooting of lightning from magic wands, to name a few.

Some of the core concepts of Wicca and real witchcraft are absent from the world of Harry Potter:

* Wiccans worship both a God and Goddess, though there is no mention of any form of Deities at all in the Harry Potter series. Wicca is a religion after all, not just the act of casting spells. Why, there is no spirituality in these books and movies at all!

* Traditional Wiccans belong to covens. Though the Harry Potter characters are grouped together at a school, there is clearly no coven groups to be seen.

* True spells require practice, experience, and the focused control of will. Shouting a phrase in Latin and waving a wand won't get you very far in the real world. Let's be realistic here, if we witches could really perform magick in the same way it's done in the movies, the world would be a very different place.

I suggest you visit my What is Wicca? page and do a little reading, to find out the real nature of Wicca. Whatever 'real' ideas that some people see in these movies are a mystery to me.

As I searched the Internet looking for pro-Potter sites, I was absolutely overwhelmed by the number of articles and sites dedicated to "exposing the evil truths about Harry Potter". What surprised me even more was the blatent lies and false information they contain. The biblical references used to back up their claims are questionable at best, and all of them are focused on the evils of magick and Witchcraft. The connection between J.K Rowling's books and Witchcraft is all in their heads. The 'experts' don't really know anything about Witchcraft at all, and it's a shame that they are the ones yelling the loudest.

I doubt my little voice will be heard amongst the cacophony of Christian fear and outrage. But hopefully, some people will actually stop and think about their claims before protesting these books. My point here is not to debate the Christian position on Witchcraft, but remove harmless, fantasy novels from the fray. We Witches are misrepresented enough as it is.

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As you may have figured out, this article is from a witch. The few witches that I have talked to don't like HP either.

As I have pointed out, HP's witchcraft is fictionalized. 'nuff said.

[Clio]

LOL!

Ok Neal. This is old stuff, and been debated plenty. I can't trot out my sources because they're people not links... and require confidentiality to some extent.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

Your author is right hand path, and hedge witchcraft based. I've seen this article before.

But I can say this... fear does not enter into any part of my decision not to allow these books in my home.

Clio

[Dr. Shane]

I only want to consume the best food and the best liturature. None of us have time to read every book published. We just don't. Not even all the children's books. So we must choose the best books to read. I have no issues with Courious George or Dr. Seuss but you will find few of those books in my children's library. Why? Because there are so many better books one can purchase (or check out from the public library) and read.

I don't know if Harry Potter is objectionable or not. When my children take an interest in such things I may have to look into it. However I know there are many better choices of literture to read. Each of us with children should be having family worship with our children and reading to and with them. Readers are leaders.

That said, it is interesting that the pope is coming out against Harry Potter.

[Liz]

Well, I for one, can't wait until I get my hands on the next book. In fact, it will be delivered on the 16th. I will restrain myself and not read it though till after Sabbath, as I try and not read any non-Sabbath type materials on Sabbath. I have a sister in law, who will not allow Harry Potter, but did an in-depth study on "The Hobbit". They both had wizards, but one was by a "Christian" author--that really doesn't make sense to me, but then my sil and I very rarely see eye to eye. It irritates me when people condemn one wizard and uphold another. I like to take each book or series of books by their own merits. I know that Satan is real and that he uses different devices to ensnare different people, some people shouldn't read HP, some shouldn't read anything fiction period, but they shouldn' spoil it for everyone.

(Just a minute while I put on my plastic wear, so the rotten tomatoes won't stain my clothes.)

O.K. I am ready.

Liz

[Neil D]

Quote:

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(Just a minute while I put on my plastic wear, so the rotten tomatoes won't stain my clothes.)

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Uh, Liz, I must make excepttion to your plastic wear...Most people who go against the suggest 'standard' should wear either a hardy flame retardant or adbestosis underwear. We find that it protects the vital parts abit better.

[Ron Lambert]

This obsession some Christians have with attacking the Harry Potter books is like children charging out to attack dust devils with their wooden swords. The sad thing is that some of them seem to be serious about it. With all the real deviltry that exists in this world, it is virtually a cop-out for anyone to target something so trivial as this.

Reminds me of the way some church groups picketted movie theatres when the first "O God!" movie (starring Geroge Burns in the title role) first came out. The picketters succeeded in only two things: generating MORE publicity for the movie, and making Christians in general look like idiots.

To anyone who has a burden to inveigh at length denouncing the Harry Potter books and movies, I say, "Get a life!"

[bevin]

Shane, I agree with your stance about choosing books carefully.

My girls and I are very wide and selective readers, but we all found the HP books were a fun read.

Which non-SDA books have you found meet your goals for your children? (PS: this is a serious question, I do not intend to make any kind of judgement on your reply - but I might find myself adding to my book collection...)

/Bevin

[Dr. Shane]

My kids are 2 & 4 so we are still with toddler books with the hard cardboard pages they can't tear. They love VegeTales and Dora the Explorer books. My 4 year old has picked up a lot from the Dora books. As they get a little older I plan to read the Dick & Jane classics for learning to read.

[Pockey]

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Liz said:

I have a sister in law, who will not allow Harry Potter, but did an in-depth study on "The Hobbit". They both had wizards, but one was by a "Christian" author--that really doesn't make sense to me, but then my sil and I very rarely see eye to eye. It irritates me when people condemn one wizard and uphold another. I like to take each book or series of books by their own merits.

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Doesn't make sense to me either, because what about CS Lewis and "The Chronicles of Narnia", like "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe"?

[bevin]

At that age our kids loved the Berenstein Bears series, and they have a good set of messages built into them

/Bevin