I can't find a NT command to pay tithe!

[Robert]

Now don't get me wrong...if you belong to a church I believe you should help support the Pastor and other church costs.

When I attended the local SDA church I paid tithe for two reasons:

1] To gain heaven

2] To get blessings

Number one is legalism (based on OT statements, especially Malachi 3:8-10)

Number two is based on selfishness (something the spirit of the law condemns). If I pay tithe to get to get something back, I am technically being selfish. It's like playing the stock market.

Anyway, if you can prove to me that I should pay tithe using the NT I will listen.

Rob

[bevin]

Heck, I can't even find an OT command to pay tithe to a central organization on a regular basis.

/Bevin

[Dr. Shane]

All that is lacking here is a percentage.

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But this I say, He that soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he that soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully. Let each man do according as he hath purposed in his heart: not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> 2 Cor. 9:6, 7

[Pockey]

I like what this one pastor said, he said "I stopped paying tithe years ago. I don't pay tithe, I return tithe to God."

[Neil D]

Sid, I like that...I return tithe to God...Sounds good to me...

Jimbob,

have you concidered 1 Corth. 16?

[:"red"]

1Regarding the relief offering for poor Christians that is being collected, you get the same instructions I gave the churches in Galatia. 2Every Sunday each of you make an offering and put it in safekeeping. Be as generous as you can. When I get there you'll have it ready, and I won't have to make a special appeal. [/]

Granted, this offering is for the poor, but Paul emphisises that every week something is to be set aside as a offering. And it sounds to me like there is history behind these words. And when taken in conjunction with the OT, it sounds like this is a continueation of supporting the ministry that ministers to you.

And what about Matt 23,23

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.

Is Jesus saying that Tithe is no longer needed? Or is he saying that there are other things that need attention in addition to the tithe....This means that the tithe is assumed to be known and obeyed.

In my opinion, there is an assumption by Jesus Himself that tithe should be paid....Dontcha think?

[Robert]

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Shane said:

All that is lacking here is a percentage.

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But this I say, He that soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he that soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully. Let each man do according as he hath purposed in his heart: not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

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2 Cor. 9:6, 7

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• 6 Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. 7 Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

I don't see this is tithe, but rather gifts. Tithe in the OT is 10%

The “reaping and sowing” must be in the field of “winning souls for the kingdom”? What’s your take?

• 10 Now he who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will also supply and increase your store of seed and will enlarge the harvest of your righteousness. [NIV]

The "sower" I assume is the Pastor who preaches the gospel? Again, if you belong to a church whose leadership presents the gospel, I believe you support them....But I find no command to pay tithe or else.....

Rob

[Robert]

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Sid said:

I like what this one pastor said, he said "I stopped paying tithe years ago. I don't pay tithe, I

return

tithe to God."

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Sorry....God doesn't get the money...men and woman do.

[Robert]

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Neil D said:

Is Jesus saying that Tithe is no longer needed? Or is he saying that there are other things that need attention

in addition to

the tithe....This means that the tithe is assumed to be known and obeyed.

In my opinion, there is an assumption by Jesus Himself that tithe should be paid....Dontcha think?

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• 23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

What did the above say? "You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin."

In Luke 11:42 I find this:

“Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue [:"red"]and all other kinds of garden herbs[/], but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone."

Why 10% of one's garden herbs? For one I do not have a garden....Turning to the OT I find:

• Lev 27:30 30 ‘Thus all the tithe of the land, of the seed of the land or of the fruit of the tree, is the Lord’s; it is holy to the Lord.

Is it saying to give 10% of the crop of your land? Maybe....But again, I have no garden or field.

Again, I do not see a NT command (do this or else) to give 10% of my income to an established church....

Rob

[LifeHiscost]

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ROBERT said:

Sorry....God doesn't get the money...men and woman do.

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[:"red"] "When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. " [/] Matt 25:38-40 KJV

[:"red"] "For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also." [/] Matthew 6:21 KJV

[Robert]

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dgrimm60 said:

the tithe belongs to GOD now if you want to withhold

THE TITHE from GOD that is you choice. but GOD MAY

with hold a blessing from you.

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Again, giving to get is based on selfishness! I don't believe God is in the business of promoting selfish traits. Besides, this sounds like "blessing" for sale. I detest this sort of mentality.

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JESUS said to give unto Caesars what is Caesars

and give to GOD which is GODS

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Okay, let's find this one:

• Matt 22:17 “Tell us therefore, what do You think? Is it lawful to give a poll-tax to Caesar, or not?” 18 But Jesus perceived their malice, and said, “Why are you testing Me, you hypocrites? 19 “Show Me the coin used for the poll-tax.” And they brought Him a denarius. 20 And He said to them, “Whose likeness and inscription is this?” 21 They said to Him, “Caesar’s.” Then He said to them, “Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s; and to God the things that are God’s.”

This is the best one so far....I will admit it sounds like Jesus is talking about tithe, but I need more NT evidence that this is the case.

Rob

[LifeHiscost]

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ROBERT said:

(do this or else)

Rob

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[:"red"] "So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.

For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.

What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? " [/] James 2:12-14 NASB

No tenths here. More like 100%.

[Robert]

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Sorry....God doesn't get the money...men and woman do.

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[:"red"] "When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. " [/] Matt 25:38-40 KJV

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Okay...good point.

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[:"red"] "For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also." [/] Matthew 6:21 KJV

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Context: 19 “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

I think you are assuming that if I don't pay tithe that I am automatically placing that money into earthly treasures? Wrong assumption. Sure I have a mortgage, car payments, etc...but I do not see myself as building up treasure.

Rob

[Robert]

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LifeHiscost said:

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ROBERT said:

(do this or else)

Rob

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[:"red"] "So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty. For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment. What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? " [/] James 2:12-14 NASB No tenths here. More like 100%.

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First of all, if you are assuming that "the law of liberty" is the 10 commandments, it says nothing of giving 10%.

We will be judged by Jesus Christ (not the law). Believers are no longer under the law they are under grace. So "the law liberty" is not the Ten Commandments. If you are going to be judged by the law then you can forget heaven! Why? Because Paul says,

• Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Then what is “the law of liberty”? In and of itself the law is a “yoke of bondage”….Now go to 2 Cor 3:17

“ Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom [from sinful traites?]. 18 And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being changed into his likeness from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

I honestly have not been impressed by the Spirit to pay tithe….Of course I do not attend church either….

Rob

[bevin]

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God doesn't get the money...men and woman do.

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Correct - specifically some of the employees of the organization who are telling you that you need to give them the money regardless of what they do with it.

/Bevin

[Robert]

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bevin said:

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God doesn't get the money...men and woman do.

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Correct - specifically some of the employees of the organization who are telling you that you need to give them the money regardless of what they do with it.

/Bevin

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True....And the local SDA church that I use to attend used Malachi heavily!

Here's the quote:

• “Will a man rob God? Yet you are robbing Me! But you say, ‘How have we robbed Thee?’ In tithes and offerings.

  “You are cursed with a curse,

  for you are robbing Me, the whole nation of you!

  “Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, so that there may be food in My house, and test Me now in this,” says the Lord of hosts, “if I will not open for you the windows of heaven, and pour out for you a blessing until it overflows.

Now go to Gal 3:10

• For as many as are of the works of the Law [the Torah] are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.”

What is Paul referring to? Deuteronomy 28:

• If you fully obey the LORD your God and carefully follow all his commands I give you today, the LORD your God will set you high above all the nations on earth. All these blessings will come upon you and accompany you if you obey the LORD your God:....The LORD will grant you abundant prosperity— You will lend to many nations but will borrow....The LORD will make you the head, not the tail. If you pay attention to the commands of the LORD your God that I give you this day and carefully follow them, you will always be at the top, never at the bottom.

  “But it shall come about, if you will not obey the Lord your God, to observe to do all His commandments and His statutes with which I charge you today, that all these curses shall come upon you and overtake you....“Cursed shall you be when you come in, and cursed shall you be when you go out. “The Lord will send upon you curses, confusion, and rebuke, in all you undertake to do, until you are destroyed and until you perish quickly, on account of the evil of your deeds....

Well all those are "old covenant" statements! In other words:

• Obey and live - disobey and die!

Even EGW agrees:

The terms of the "old covenant" were, Obey and live: "If a man do, he shall even live in them" (Ezekiel 20:11; Leviticus 18:5); but "cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them." Deuteronomy 27:26.

So when someone tells me I am going to hell (as do the Baptist) if I don't pay my way into heaven (through tithe) or God's going "to curse" me (as did the local SDA church)...I immediately think - "Old covenant!"

The "old covenant" is simply what "the law" requires in return for life. If you confuse this with what God requires then you end up with something like this:

• I am God - I love you! Now love me back or I'll kill you!

  Or better yet:

  I am God! Heaven is yours by faith....Now pay me or you won't get in.

[Robert]

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IN MALACHI chapter 3 verse 8

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I asked for NT...not OT!

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JESUS SAID your pay tithe of anis and mint but

leave out the weightier matters

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Okay...do you bring "anise and mint" as tithe?

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NO REALTIONSHIP TO JESUS CHRIST then any thing goes

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That's a judgmental statement! Here's the problem with that: According to Romans 2:1

• You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.

I can hear your response now:

"I pay tithes of all that I get." [see Luke 18:12]

Okay...but that's not enough according to the "SPIRIT of the law"! Let's look at what it requires:

• "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor" Matt 19:21

  "Sell your possessions and give to the poor." Luke 12:33

  [:"red"]“So therefore, no one of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions."[/] Luke 14:33

True giving is not a mere 10%....It is "coveting" nothing for yourself and living solely for others. The NT church experienced this love:

Acts 2:44 All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45 Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need.

Now you see why you shouldn't judge one's relationship with Christ because when you do this your relationship comes into question also!

[Robert]

Yes...the "letter" of the Torah requires tithe and offerings, but the spirit of God's law also requires that your motive for giving be perfect. Let's examine this:

• "If I give all I possess to the poor..., but have not love, I gain nothing.

  Why...what is "love"?

  Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking.... [1 Cor 13]

If you are giving to get then according to the spirit of God's law you are sinning!!! Your motive is gain and covetousness...i.e., you are self-seeking.

My wife was visiting a Baptist church...the Minister brought up that the offerings had been low for sometime, so he begin to preach "hell-fire"...you know ... you pay or you burn. So almost everyone (except for my wife) whipped out their wallets, purses and checkbooks!

What was the motive? Fear of hell!

Do you know what Ellen White says about "fear of hell or hope of reward?" Here:

• "Hope of reward or fear of punishment would avail nothing. Open apostasy would not be more offensive to God than hypocrisy and mere formal worship."

Again, I don't have a problem with supporting a church that is preaching the gospel...but to make it a condition of salvation is nothing short of buying one's way into heaven.

Rob

[Neil D]

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Why 10% of one's garden herbs? For one I do not have a garden....Turning to the OT I find:

Lev 27:30 30 ‘Thus all the tithe of the land, of the seed of the land or of the fruit of the tree, is the Lord’s; it is holy to the Lord.

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So, What are you saying here, Robert? That ministerial support was done by giving only crops? That only the farmers were to give to the church?,,,,Or is it possible that the major trade of the day was agricultural goods, ie produce from the gardens and lambs, sheep and goats. Today's major trade is in currency, ie US dollars, aka money. We support the ministry thru money...especially since it is "the increase" of our goods that is taxed by God.

[Robert]

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Neil D said:

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Why 10% of one's garden herbs? For one I do not have a garden....Turning to the OT I find:

Lev 27:30 30 ‘Thus all the tithe of the land, of the seed of the land or of the fruit of the tree, is the Lord’s; it is holy to the Lord.

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... is it possible that the major trade of the day was agricultural goods, ie produce from the gardens and lambs, sheep and goats. Today's major trade is in currency, ie US dollars, aka money. We support the ministry thru money...especially since it is "the increase" of our goods that is taxed by God.

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Makes sense...

But then again I found this:

• Luke 16:14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money....

Now why were they paying in agricultural goods when apparently they had money?

[Dr. Shane]

The belief that we are to pay tithe is very biblical. We can argue little points here and there but at the end of the day the Bible is pretty clear. This is especially true for Seventh-day Adventists that accept the entire Bible as "given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness".

What is not so clear is that the tithe need to be paid to the local conference of Seventh-day Adventists. There are even discrepcies in the SOP about the matter.

[Neil D]

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Now why were they paying in agricultural goods when apparently they had money?

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BECAUSE, In my opinion, they were anal retentive people [LIKE the pharasees] who could not understand that God is not a Bookkeeper dealing only in behavior, but a Person who deals in relationships.

Which explains some of the weird legalistic questions we get around here sometimes.

[Robert]

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Shane said:

The belief that we are to pay tithe is very biblical.

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You haven't proved it to me!

For years I wasted money on a church that preached and taught a perverted gospel. I will never, never do that again...never! They taught "doctrines of devils"...legalism and self-righteousness prevailed....

I can remember one of the church Elders who bragged about how God blessed him for faithfully returning tithes and offerings....Well shortly after that he died of cancer. So much for blessing by tithing....

NT tithe is not mandatory, rather it is to be used for the support of those who present the gospel of Jesus Christ. Problem is the local SDA church doesn't present the gospel...they present a perverted gospel.

Are you telling me I should support their cause?

Rob

[Bravus]

Couple of quick points:

1. The whole argument about tithing spices was just Jesus making the point that, although these guys were punctilious on the detail parts of the law - they not only paid tithe on the big stuff, like their earnings from rent on properties they owned and so on, but *even* on their herbs and spices, tiny quantities. So it wasn't *only* the spices they were tithing, but everything. It's a related point to straining out gnats and swallowing camels. His point here was not about tithe, though, but about justice and mercy: they tithed the rents, but the rents were extortionate, for example (that's an imagined example rather than anything explicit in the text).

2. Asking for a New Testament command to 'pay tithe or else' is a bit incoherent, because of the law of liberty. What the New Testament asks us to do is liberally support God's work in the world. That means doing that work ourselves, both in evangelism and in helping those who need help, but also supporting those who work full time in these areas. There's not a specific percentage given, and if we give *more* than 10% that's great too. And we don't give to avoid punishment or to be saved, but because we want to and because it'sthe right thing to do.

Robert, you correctly insist that the number one spiritual ailment in our society is self-centredness. Tithing (or other forms of giving - the proportion is the least important part) is one important cure for that ailment: when we open our hearts and hands and let go of our money, recognising that it belongs to God and others, we also break the money's grip on us.

[Neil D]

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For years I wasted money on a church that preached and taught a perverted gospel. I will never, never do that again...never! They taught "doctrines of devils"...legalism and self-righteousness prevailed....

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A story is told of a girl, maybe a guy, but as I recall, it is a girl, who grew up and went thru all the accadamy class. Being somewhat independant, she eventually leaves the church, claiming legalism, and goes out into the world. About 20 years later, after much of life has left her disgrunteled, she comes back to God and remembering her roots in the accadamy, decided to go back to her religion teacher. She found that he was still alive, and still was preaching..She went to her religious teacher and accused him of preaching a legalistic religion. He profoundly appologised...They discussed some more of the gospel, and she concurred with him on many points. A few years later, while rumaging thru some old papers, she found her papers from bible class at the accadamy. She discovered that she took some good notes, and to her surprise, discovered that her bible teacher never changed his messgae. He was teaching then what she agreed with now, and she was sure she understood the Gospel now...All those years of blaming others for endoctrinating her with a perverted gospel, was in reality, of her own doing. She mis-interpreted what was said.....

"Let those who have ears, hear...."

[Dr. Shane]

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All those years of blaming others for endoctrinating her with a perverted gospel, was in reality, of her own doing.

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Sounds like my story. Have you been stalking me? <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />