I can't find a NT command to pay tithe!

[Neil D]

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Sounds like my story. Have you been stalking me?

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Yeah, well, went to your accadamy teacher, and he told me all about you. Found out you had a sex change and then went to Texas, took up with the Republican conservatives and got married ....

NOT!

[Robert]

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Neil D said:

...All those years of blaming others for indoctrinating her with a perverted gospel, was in reality, of her own doing. She mis-interpreted what was said....."Let those who have ears, hear...."

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That's nice, Neil...but I haven't mis-understood! I know that the SDA church, nor any other church, is truly preaching the truth as it is "in Christ".

Hence the only gospel left is one "missing the mark" and therefore by default many SDA Pastors preach and teach a perverted gospel. If this church taught the gospel I would support it with my tithes and offerings without hesitation. But they don't, hence:

• Matt 7:6 “Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.”

  What does Jesus mean by "dogs"?

  Phil 3:1 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe. 2 Beware of the dogs [wolves in sheep’s clothing], beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. 3For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

What does it mean to have confindence in the flesh?

• If anyone else thinks he has reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I [Paul] had more:

  circumcised on the eighth day,

  of the people of Israel,

  of the tribe of Benjamin,

  a Hebrew of Hebrews;

  in regard to the law, a Pharisee;

  as for zeal, persecuting the church;

  as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.

There's traditional Adventism is a nutshell!!!! They say:

• We don't keep the law to be saved (sounds good), we keep the law because we are saved!

Sounds wonderfull...but it is presumptuous. The assumption is that they are actually fully keeping all aspects of the law - their proof of being saved.

So when you find out you really aren’t measuring up (as Paul states), then the hope of salvation goes....After all, if I am not keeping the law, as I assumed, then I must not be saved! Ergo a perverted gospel....

Rob

[Robert]

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There's not a specific percentage given, and if we give *more* than 10% that's great too. And we don't give to avoid punishment or to be saved, but because we want to...

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That is my conclusion....

[Robert]

One other thing, lest there be some misunderstanding:

Beware of the dogs [wolves in sheep’s clothing], beware of evil workers, beware of the concision [circumcision]

If I, a NT believer, have to pay tithe to enter heaven or because I am saved, then I technically belong to the party of "the circumcision"! How so?

Go to Acts 15:1 & 5:

• Verse 1 "some men [dogs] came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised...[:"red"]you cannot be saved[/].

  Verse 5 But certain ones of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed, stood up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses.”

Please note these were Christians who had accepted Christ, but still taught obedience to the Torah to stay saved instead of letting God work in one's heart and conscience as He sees fit....

Rob

[Neil D]

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That's nice, Neil...but I haven't mis-understood! I know that the SDA church, nor any other church, is truly preaching the truth as it is "in Christ".

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Robert, who says that I was talking about YOU?

I gave a story that applied to myself. That story was to emphasise that it is not what others do with the money I give, but rather emphsising my responsiblities as I understand them in relation to what God has shown me . IOWs, since I know that I am responsible for a portion of my money to be returned to God [see Sid, I used the word "returned"], it is God's responsiblity to tell me who He wants me to return it to....And the bible tells me that money is to go to the Church. Sometimes I give it to the conference, and sometimes I give to the local church...but I AM to return it....

Now, Gregory can give a better understanding as to why it needs to go to the local church, but I too struggle with percieved wrongs within the church....

And there are some similarities that I see in to the girl in the allagory...She blamed everyone else for her problems, her view on God, her view about Him, and the doctrines that she understood. Yet her notes showed that she had the correct Gospel, that her religious teacher had told her the correct gospel. So what went wrong? Why was she left with the wrong impression about God?....It was her, Robert. She made the mistakes, she choose to go down a path that she liked, and appealed to her.

I struggle with the ol' "Isn't this blame game that you are doing something that appeals to you?" scenerio...To which, I reason it out...

If not, why do you persist in it?

If so, what good is gonna come from it?

And I realize that I could wallow in bitterness, and I don't want to go there, so ..I move on.

Just like I am going to do now.....

[Robert]

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And I realize that I could wallow in bitterness, and I don't want to go there, so ..I move on.

Just like I am going to do now.....

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I never learned the gospel until I quit going to my local SDA church....That's where I was brainwashed, but ultimately it was my fault. I had to go through the Old Covenant experience....

We are by nature legalistic and proud, so I guess you could say God used that church to open my eyes....Problem is their eyes are still shut! For years I tried to give them the good news, but they rejected my pleas....Out of that 500 plus group, one Sabbath Schoolteacher accepted it and he began to preach it.

Now he has a much smoother personality than I do...so he lasted about 2 years before they showed him the door. In fact our Pastor at that time (can't remember his name), who was sympathetic to the cause, was willing to allow another Adventist's Pastor to come a present the gospel. When the church found out it was Jack Sequeira all hell broke out....The majority said absolutely not!!! Shortly after that I left the local group of Pharisees....

Am I bitter? No, by the grace of God that is past….However I will never support such an effort again. Yes, all SDA churches are not the same, but around here they have issues. I am hoping to find a Sabbath keeping people who are preaching the gospel….Until then I will not give them the means to teach their perverions!

Rob

[Dr. Shane]

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went to Texas, took up with the Republican conservatives and got married ....

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What do Texas Republicans and paying tithe have to do with each other again? I missed that. Does this has something to do with President Bush paying a faithful tithe?

[LifeHiscost]

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ROBERT said:

Now go to Gal 3:10

• For as many as are of
  the works of the Law
  [the Torah] are
  under a curse
  ; for it is written, “
  Cursed is everyone
  who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.”

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[:"red"] "But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe." [/] Galatians 3:22 KJV

I think that pretty well sums it up.

[:"red"] "And have clothed yourselves with the new [spiritual self], which is [ever in the process of being] renewed and remolded into [fuller and more perfect knowledge upon] knowledge after the image (the likeness) of Him Who created it.

[in this new creation all distinctions vanish.] There is no room for and there can be neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, [nor difference between nations whether alien] barbarians or Scythians [who are the most savage of all], nor slave or free man; but Christ is all and in all [everything and everywhere, to all men, without distinction of person].

Clothe yourselves therefore, as God's own chosen ones (His own picked representatives), [who are] purified and holy and well-beloved [by God Himself, by putting on behavior marked by] tenderhearted pity and mercy, kind feeling, a lowly opinion of yourselves, gentle ways, [and] patience [which is tireless and long-suffering, and has the power to endure whatever comes, with good temper]." [/]

Colossians 3:10-12 AMP

[:"red"] "And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering" [/] Col 3:10-12 KJV

[Robert]

What does that have to do with tithe?

Rob

[LifeHiscost]

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ROBERT said:

I think you are assuming that if I don't pay tithe that I am automatically placing that money into earthly treasures? Wrong assumption.

Rob

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Would I be assuming too much in saying that's an assumption

of an assumption?

My testimony is that tithing has allowed me to remove from my own shoulders the worry of success based on some man-made formula. God has never failed to give me more than I've ever given Him, poor business practices notwithstanding.

[:"red"] "And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come." [/] Luke 19:13 KJV

Each must determine for themselves how much occupying the Lord would determine is for their best good, without being second guessed by every Tom, Dick and Mary whether they're in the right place.

[:"red"] ".....Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." [/] Rom 14:5 KJV

[LifeHiscost]

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ROBERT said:

>>I can remember one of the church Elders who bragged about how God blessed him for faithfully returning tithes and offerings<<....[/quote}

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NT tithe is not mandatory

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Sounds like you've stopped preaching the gospel again, Robert, in preference to going on a tirade against the evils of a particular church and their adherents. Maybe you could benefit by studying what Jesus asks of His disciples, especially about their giving habits, personally applied.

I do believe you equate yourself as one of His disciples. However that is only an assumption, not based on personal knowledge.

Re: >> << [:"red"] "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held" [/] Revelation 6:9 KJV

Re: ** ** Your right, it isn't. Consequences of behavioral characteristics are.

[:"red"]"....for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap."[/]Galatians 6:7 NASB

Keep the faith!

[LifeHiscost]

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ROBERT said:

I honestly have not been impressed by the Spirit to pay tithe….>>Of course I do not attend church either….<<

Rob

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What you seem to criticize, Robert, about the Adventist church, is that there are failures among the body of believers. Well, Duh! Seems like Jesus' advice to one disciple sufficiently answers how I should answer that reality for my personal actions.

[:"red"] "Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?

Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.

Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?" [/] John 21:21-23 KJV

All disciples, as the very word indicates, are called to do things for the Master Who calls them to discipleship. But it's a voluntary discipleship. When you no longer feel it is your responsibility to tell everyone else what they ought to be doing for Jesus, you will no longer feel the sting of other's opinions about your necessary actions, whether or not it's about necessity for salvation.

[:"red"] "And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me." [/] Luke 9:23 KJV

Re: >> << You have the right to ignore Jesus' advice about that also. However there is no way you can escape the consequences of your choices.

[:"red"] "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching." [/] Hebrews 10:25 KJV

Blessings!

[Robert]

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"Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching." Hebrews 10:25 KJV

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Let's examine the context:

• 19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus [His life laid down in death], 20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. 25 Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

Here we have believers who understand the gospel! They have "confidence" - not because of their goodness - but rather because through Christ's flesh they can approach God and His holy law blameless and perfect "in Him." To give this truth up and "give up meeting" with other fellow believers would be dangerous.

When I existed [huh, try exited] the local SDA church some 8 years ago I did not "give up meeting" with a group of believers like Paul described above. So I do not see your point. Should I stay with a group that rejects the gospel and is teaching a perverted gospel?

[Gerr]

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This is the best one so far....I will admit it sounds like Jesus is talking about tithe, but I need more NT evidence that this is the case.

Rob

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[:"blue"]Does God have to repeat everything He said in the OT in order to be valid in the NT?

Do you ever find rules addition & subtraction in a calculus textbook? English 101 grammar rules in an advanced writing textbook? [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

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First of all, if you are assuming that "the law of liberty" is the 10 commandments, it says nothing of giving 10%.

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[:"blue"] The 8th of the 10c says, "You shall not steal." God says the tithe is His. Now if you take what is not yours, what do you call it? [/]

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We will be judged by Jesus Christ (not the law).

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[:"blue"]You are splitting hair. When Christ judges you, on what basis or by what criteria does He do it? James is very clear that it is on the basis of the "law of liberty". And he did not leave anyone in that dark as to what he meant by "law of liberty" because he even quoted two of them. Check it out. [/]

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Believers are no longer under the law they are under grace. So "the law liberty" is not the Ten Commandments.

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[:"blue"]"If you fulfull the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well; but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. For He who said, [:"red"] "Do not commit adultery," [/]also said"Do not murder." [:"red"] [/] Now if you commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the LAW OF LIBERTY." Jam 2:8-13. NKJ. [/]

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If you are going to be judged by the law then you can forget heaven! Why? Because Paul says,

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[:"blue"]Forget heaven? Why should I? "There is therefore now no condemnation [katakrima- damnatory sentence, guilty verdict, guilty judgment] to those who are IN Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit." Rom 8:1 NKJ.

How can a believer be pronounced, "not guilty" without a trial, a judgment? [/]

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• Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them
  who are under the law
  : that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may
  become guilty before God.
  20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall
  no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

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[:"blue"]That is why the believer who, after coming to know the truth yet persists in sin, has the greater condemnation. "Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin." Jam 4:17 NKJ.

[:"red"]"For if we sin [transgress the law] willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of jugment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries." Heb 10:26,27 NKJ. [/] [/]

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Then what is “the law of liberty”? In and of itself the law is a “yoke of bondage”….Now go to 2 Cor 3:17

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[:"blue"]Where are people more free, in a nation without law, or a nation ruled by law?

[:"red"]"I will live in perfect freedom, because I try to obey your teachings." Ps 119:45 GNT

"I will walk in freedom because I have devoted myself to your commandments." NLT

[/]Law-abiding citizens walk about in freedom without interference from the law. It is law-breakers who become in bondage to the law and wind up losing their freedom when they go behind bars. [/]

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“ Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is,

there is freedom

[from sinful traites?]. 18 And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being changed into his likeness from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

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[:"blue"]And how does the Spirit transform the believer into His likeness? Is it not by fulfilling the NC promise of writing His law in the heart? And obeyed in the heart, the believer becomes truly a FREE MAN!!! [/]

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I honestly have not been impressed by the Spirit to pay tithe….Of course I do not attend church either….

Rob

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[:"blue"]Was the Holy Spirit given to contradict or ignore previously revealed truth? [/]

Gerry

[Stan]

The new testament clearly says to study the scriptures... the only scriptures they had, was the old testament.

Tithing was ot considered an option, just as pork, mice, dogs, cats and snakes were not considered food.

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

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First of all, if you are assuming that "the law of liberty" is the 10 commandments, it says nothing of giving 10%.

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The 8th of the 10c says, "You shall not steal." God says the tithe is His. Now if you take what is not yours, what do you call it?

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The law doesn't liberate you to live a good life...quite the opposite. Paul tells us that,

• [:"red"]"if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, neither is there violation."[/] [Romans 4:14,15]

The law can't bring "about wrath" because as far as believers are concerned "there is no law" because, according to Romans 7:6,

• "we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound."

The law can't condemn a man or woman who have accepted their death "in Christ Jesus."

Sure, there's growth, but not according to you Gerry...but rather to the dictates of one's conscience in his/her walk with the Lord. That's why Paul finishes verse six with,

• “so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.”

Having said that I have not been impressed by the Spirit that I should pay tithe into a corrupt system. Why give money to a system that, according to Christ, makes one “twice as much a son of hell”? [see Matt 23:15]

My conscience is clear on this subject. Since you are not my judge I suggest that you back off….If not, then Paul has something for you:

• Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

What is this “yoke of bondage”?

• Acts 15:1 AND some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised [one of the many rules of the law] according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”

How did Peter reply?

• Verse 10: Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Now back to Gal 5:2 --

• And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision [as a means of salvation], [:"red"]that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law[/]. 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace…

There it is Gerry…if you insist I pay tithe, as prescribed by the OT, then I insist that you obey “all the law” – especially its spirit. What does the spirit of the law say concerning your possessions? Does it merely ask for 10%? You tell me:

• “So therefore, no one of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions." Luke 14:33

That is why when Paul understood "coveting" in the context of "self-seeking" he exclaimed, "I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death." [Romans 7:10]

So Gerry, when you try to put me "under law" you place yourself under its jurisdiction. Hence,

• “Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get." [Matt 7:1-2]

[Robert]

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Stan Jensen said:

Tithing was not considered an option....

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Then you must obey "all the law" - not just that part that suits your fancy!

Again:

• “So therefore, no one of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions." Luke 14:33

Look up the story of the rich ruler in Matt 19....Look at his legalistic question:

• "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?”

Jesus tried to correct his theology by His first statement:

• "There is none good but one, that is, God"

However, to answer his question, Christ replied:

• "but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."

The man asks, "which ones"?

• ‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’”

Please note that Jesus replaced the 10th commandment, "You shall not covet" with "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Why? Because they are one and the same!

If you truly loved your neighbor in the same way that you naturally love yourself you wouldn't spend so much time seeking after all the goodies in this life....You would live only for others (just like Christ did)!

So if you make heaven conditional upon "tithing"...that is not enough...you must do more to be perfect:

• "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

If, in this world, we truly followed Christ (and hence fulfilled the law) we would "walk as He walked"....How did He walk in this world under Satan?

• Luke 9:57 And as they were going along the road, someone said to Him, “I will follow You wherever You go.” 58 And Jesus said to him, “The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head.”

In other words,

• “If anyone wishes to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.

That’s not just 10%…that's everything? So is tithing still mandatory?

No offence intended, Stan....I just don't agree that tithing is mandatory. Now you can make the argument that without money the church is limited by what it can do....I'll buy that....And again, yes I think one should tithe if he/she belongs to a good gospel preaching church....

Rob

[Gerr]

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ROBERT said:

One other thing, lest there be some misunderstanding:

Beware of the dogs [wolves in sheep’s clothing], beware of evil workers, beware of the concision [circumcision]

If I, a NT believer, have to pay tithe to enter heaven or because I am saved, then I technically belong to the party of "the circumcision"! How so?

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[:"blue"]This is one of the most screwed up bit of reasoning I have ever heard of!!! What you are saying is that if I stop bowing down to idols, if I don't cheat on my wife or Uncle Sam that I am therefore trying to gain heaven by doing so. And in order to prove that I am not trying to work my way to heaven, I should declare my faith in Christ but continue to live as though there is no law!

You continue to declare that you had to leave the SDA Church in order to learn the gospel, sorry to say, but the good news you are showing in this forum is not good news at all. It is one confused, screwed up theology. [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

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ROBERT said:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

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First of all, if you are assuming that "the law of liberty" is the 10 commandments, it says nothing of giving 10%.

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The 8th of the 10c says, "You shall not steal." God says the tithe is His. Now if you take what is not yours, what do you call it?

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The law doesn't liberate you to live a good life...quite the opposite. Paul tells us that,

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[:"blue"] Please answer the question. When you take what is not yours, what do you call it? And what is the "law of liberty" that James is talking about? Is it the 10c or not? If not, how do you explain the fact he quotes two of them? [/]

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• [:"red"]"if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified;
  for the Law brings about wrath
  , but where there is no law, neither is there violation."[/] [Romans 4:14,15]

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[:"blue"]It is very evident that you cannot see the difference between OBEDIENCE IN ORDER "to establish [one's] own righteousness" (Rom 10:3, and the "OBEDIENCE THAT COMES FROM FAITH" (Rom 1:5 NIV), which is the believer's response to grace. [/]

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The law can't bring "about wrath" because as far as believers are concerned "there is no law" because, according to Romans 7:6,

• "
  we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound."

The law can't condemn a man or woman who have accepted their death "in Christ Jesus."

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[:"blue"]Really? It is written: [:"red"]"The one who soul who sins is the one who will die.

"But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the UNFAITHFULNESS he is guilty of and because of the SINS he has committed, he will die." Ez 18:20, 24 NIV

"If we deliberately keep on sinning [keep on breaking the law which you are trying to tell us the believer doesn't have to keep anymore] AFTER we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of jugment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God." Heb 10:26,27 NIV.

"The wages of sin (breaking the law) is death!!!" Rom 6:23. [/]Paul doesn't say that this statement applies to unbelievers only. On the contrary, believers who continue to deliberately disobey the law after they have learned what is right and what is wrong, have the greater condemnation. [/]

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Sure, there's growth, but not according to you Gerry...but rather to the dictates of one's conscience in his/her walk with the Lord. That's why Paul finishes verse six with,

• “so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.”

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[:"blue"]Growth in what? How does the believer serve in "newness of the Spirit?" Does a business man who is growing in Christ cheat on Uncle Sam? Cheat on his wife? Crave his neighbor's wife? Property? Does the believer who serves "in newness of the Spirit" bown down to idols, punctuate his sentences & phrases with 4-letter words along with God's name? [/]

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Having said that I have not been impressed by the Spirit that I should pay tithe into a corrupt system. Why give money to a system that, according to Christ, makes one “twice as much a son of hell”? [see Matt 23:15]

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[:"blue"]If you refuse to listen to what the Spirit has already spoken through His prophets, what's the point of speaking to you now? If you are looking for lightning, thunder, earthquake, fire & smoke like Mt. Sinai in order for God to get your attention, well, you could be in for a very looooooooooonnnnnnnnnnggggggggggg wait! [/]

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My conscience is clear on this subject. Since you are not my judge I suggest that you back off….If not, then Paul has something for you:

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[:"blue"]Be careful there, Rob. That Wichita serial killer, Rader, his conscience probably did not bother him after the first few murders either. You might want to refer to 1 Tim 4:2 about a "conscience seared with a hot iron." The first time you withheld your tithe, did your conscience bother you? [/]

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• Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore
  in the liberty
  wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

What is this “yoke of bondage”?

• Acts 15:1 AND some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised [one of the many rules of the law] according to the custom of Moses,
  you cannot be saved
  .”

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[:"blue"] Again, let me ask you. What brings anyone under bondage? Is it by obeying the law by faith as Rom 1:5 says? Or is it by violating it? When Jesus pardons you, does He do so by blotting out the Law? Or does He blot out the sin? Does He set you free from obedience to the Law? Or does He set you free from the condemnation of the Law? [/]

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How did Peter reply?

• Verse 10: Now therefore why tempt ye God,
  to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples
  , which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But
  we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved
  , even as they.

Now back to Gal 5:2 --

• And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision [as a means of salvation],
  [:"red"]that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law[/]
  . 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace…

There it is Gerry…if you insist I pay tithe, as prescribed by the OT, then I insist that you obey “all the law” – especially its spirit. What does the spirit of the law say concerning your possessions? Does it merely ask for 10%? You tell me:

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[:"blue"] And what does circumcision have to do with the 10c? Or salvation? [/]

Quote:

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• “So therefore, no one of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions." Luke 14:33

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[:"blue"]If you are not willing to part with 10%, how are you going to part with all of it? Besides, you have totally misunderstood what Jesus was saying in Lk 14:33. He also said in the same discourse, [:"red"] "If anyone comes to Me and does not HATE his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple." Lk 14:26 NKJ. [/]

Is the One who commanded us to, [:"red"]"Honor your father & your mother," [/]now telling us that inorder to become is disciple we are now to hate them? Is He not rather telling us that Jesus CANNOT be second fiddle to even your closest human relations, and much less your worldly possessions. But He does say, [:"red"] "But seek FIRST the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you. Mt 6:33 NKJ. [/]

What you are trying to make Jesus say is the very opposite of what He teaches!!! You are saying that inorder to become His disciple, He teaches that we have to give up all our possessions, when in fact He is saying that when we put Him first in our lives, ahead of everything else, all the things that the Gentiles worry about, i.e. food, shelter, clothing, will be supplied by God!!! [/]

Quote:

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That is why when Paul understood "coveting" in the context of "self-seeking" he exclaimed, "I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death." [Romans 7:10]

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[:"blue"] Again, it is disobedience to law that brings death!!! Smoke, indulge alcohol, don't get enough sleep or exercise, and you are likely to die an early death. What you are actually trying to teach is that violating the law or not obeying the law somehow is proof that you are not working your way to heaven, because you think you have the faith that brings life! [/]

Gerry

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

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ROBERT said:

Should I stay with a group that rejects the gospel and is teaching a perverted gospel?

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To answer this question with a simple yes or no, is like answering the question, "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?", with a simple yes or no. But the explanations given in answer are not acceptable to you no matter what they are, as Gerry has proved.

Any person who regards only part of what God asks of His servants as words of wisdom, will never allow debate to sway them into a knowledge of the truth that sanctifies. (sets us apart for a holy purpose or use)

[wicklunds]

Amen!!

[Robert]

Do not judge, rather prove to me from the NT that tithe is mandatory!

[Robert]

Quote:

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What you are trying to make Jesus say is the very opposite of what He teaches!!! You are saying that inorder to become His disciple, He teaches that we have to give up all our possessions, when in fact He is saying that when we put Him first in our lives, ahead of everything else, all the things that the Gentiles worry about, i.e. food, shelter, clothing, will be supplied by God!!!

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Context:

Matt 6:25 “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? [nothing about your nice house, Gerry] 26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27 Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life? 28 “And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things [food & clothing] will be given to you as well.

And Paul says, "but if we have food and clothing, with these we shall be content. But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and hurtful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction."

Gerry, apparently (being a Doctor) you are not very content....You covet your goodies....Techinically that is sin when compared with Christ life of selflessness....So maybe "grace" doesn't look to bad right this moment, huh?

[bevin]

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Tithing was (n)ot considered an option, just as pork, mice, dogs, cats and snakes were not considered food.

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There is actually not a great deal of support in the OT for the concept of the tithe going to support the clergy.

Mostly the Israelites took their tithe and ate it themselves!

Deut 12:

Quote:

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And thither ye shall bring your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, and your tithes, and heave offerings of your hand, and your vows, and your freewill offerings, and the firstlings of your herds and of your flocks:

7. And there [:"red"]ye shall eat[/] before the Lord your God, and ye shall rejoice in all that ye put your hand unto, ye and your households, wherein the Lord thy God hath blessed thee.

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When they weren't doing that, they were giving it to the Levites, basically as rent because the Levites did not get land.

Numbers 18

Quote:

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24. But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the Lord, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.

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Another use was giving to the poor...

Deut 14:

Quote:

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22. Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.

23. And thou shalt eat before the Lord thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the Lord thy God always.

24. And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the Lord thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the Lord thy God hath blessed thee:

25. Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the Lord thy God shall choose:

26. And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and [:"red"]thou shalt eat there before the Lord thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,[/]

27. And [:"red"]the Levite that is within thy gates; thou shalt not forsake him; for he hath no part nor inheritance with thee[/].

28. At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates:

[:"red"] 29. And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.[/]

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2 Chron 31:5 and Nehemiah are about a one-time kick-start offering.

Malachi does NOT say to give it to the clergy.

I was very surprised when I first found out how badly the SDA members misrepresent the OT tithing system. Not because I disapprove of the general concept of supporting the spreading of the gospel, or because I disapprove of the 10% approximation, but because incorrect statements of the OT practises are used to justify the behavior of the modern organisation

In short, the SDA organisation uses bad exegesis to persuade people to give the 10% 'regardless of what we do with it' to the organisation...

/Bevin