Is Spiritual Formation taking over the SDA Church?

[Reddogs]

I received emails and have seen myself that many Adventist churches have been taken over by this 'Spiritual Formation' as new ideas to save souls. It is also known as "Spiritual Direction" and "Spiritual Disciplines", and promote contemplative prayer (also called centering prayer) and use what they call 'spiritual directors' for control . Many churches are struggling against this movement which has increased in practice and popularity along with the rise of the emerging church movement—a movement which embraces many unscriptural teachings and practices.

Here is some things of those pushing this I have found looking into this...

A few years ago, Derek J. Morris, then Professor of Homiletics and Pastoral Theology at Southern College of Seventh-day Adventists, (more recently a pastor in California) gave a talk and produced a paper calling for Spiritual Formation in Adventism. Its title is “Spiritual Formation in Ministry.

”In this talk and paper, calling for Spiritual Formation in ministry, you have a stunning revelation of the inner working of Spiritual Directors.

“I would like to explore with you this morning the process of spiritual direction and its relevance as a dynamic for spiritual formation in ministry.” –Derek Morris, Spiritual Formation in Ministry. (emphasis mine)

Morris Credits Jesuits With Preserving Spiritual Direction

Derek writes, “For much of the Christian era the practice of spiritual direction was confined to Catholicism, particularly monasticism and the Society of Jesus [the Jesuits]. In recent years, there has been a revival of interest in spiritual direction as a resource for spiritual formation among both Catholics and Protestants. A leading Protestant advocate of spiritual formation is Tilden Edwards, director of the Shalem Institute for Spiritual Formation in Washington, D.C. [CC note: Adventist Chaplaincy Ministries is promoting the Shalem Institute as the leading place for studying to become a Spiritual Director. Shalem is staffed with Roman Catholic nuns who are experts in the Spiritual Exercises of Ignatius Loyola,founder of the Jesuits, with Episcopal priests, psychiatrists, etc.] As I began my own prayer search for a spiritual friend, I came across the significant work by Tilden Edwards, Spiritual Friend: Reclaiming the Gift of Spiritual Direction. I [Derek Morris] strongly recommend this book as a valuable resource….

http://endrtimes.blogspot.com/2011/01/gc-imposes-spiritual-formation-globally.html

In concluding his paper, Derek Morris recommends that the young theology student, who leaves the seminary for his first parish, should get a Spiritual Director as soon as he arrives at his parish: “In the years that followed I discovered experientially what Roy Oswald had concluded from his research of 102 Seminary graduates some years before: Crossing the boundary for Seminary to parish is never easy. Moreover, the need for personal spiritual formation is ongoing. However, the process of spiritual direction is a tremendous resource. He notes that ‘Those who had the good fortune of finding a spiritual father/mother/friend as they begun in the parish found the going somewhat easier.’ [Oswald. P. 18.]” –Derek Morris, Spiritual Formation in Ministry, pp. 11, 12. And that is the point of Morris’ entire paper from the first to the last paragraph, that Seminary students need to find a Spiritual Director and to be under the direction of a Spiritual Director when they begin their work as a pastor in the field.

The Adventist world church created the International Board of Ministerial and Theological Education (IBMTE) in September 2001, designed to provide overall guidance and standards to the professional training of pastors, evangelists, theologians, teachers, chaplains and other denominational employees involved in ministerial and religious formation, or spiritual formation, in each of the church’s 13 regions around the world.” -ANN [Adventist News Network] http://www.danielrevelationbiblestudies.com/020820064.htm

Rick Warren on Spiritual Formation

"From time to time God has raised up a parachurch movement to reemphasize a neglected purpose of the church... The Discipleship. Spiritual Formation Movement. A reemphasis on developing believers to full maturity has been the focus ... authors such as ... Richard Foster and Dallas Willard have underscored the importance of building up Christians and establishing personal spiritual disciplines.... [this] movement has a valid message for the church...[it] has given the body a wake-up call. —Rick Warren, Purpose Driven Church, p. 126.

"The next reformation is due. It will focus on what it means to know God with a power that changes who we are and how we relate. I predict the Spiritual Formation Forum will play a vital role in the Spirit's next great movement." Larry Crabb, The Association of Christian Counselors

"The Practice offers Saturday morning meetings which provide a rhythm of worship, teaching on a particular spiritual discipline and time to experience or "practice" that discipline. This practice time allows participants to get a fuller understanding of how to incorporate the discipline in their daily lives." Spiritual Formation at Willow Creek

[Reddogs]

What 'practice' or 'spiritual discipline' is this, its certainly not a 'reformation' of truth and many are awakening to this...

Spiritual Formation: A movement that has provided a platform and a channel through which contemplative prayer is entering the church. Find spiritual formation being used, and in nearly every case you will find contemplative spirituality. In fact, contemplative spirituality is the heartbeat of the spiritual formation movement.

http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/spiritualformation.htm

The spiritual formation movement is spreading rapidly throughout the Christian community. The concept of being formed spiritually is not wrong in itself, but many practices that accompany the movement miss the mark. Often, mystic rituals do not glorify the true God but can instead lead us into dangerous spritualism.

What is Spiritual Formation?

As Roger Oakland writes in his book Faith Undone, the term spiritual formation “suggests there are various ways and means to get closer to God and to emulate him. Thus the idea that if you do certain practices, you can be more like Jesus” (emphasis in original).

Albrecht Dürer's 'Praying Hands' (circa 1508).

Getting close to God and becoming more like Him are wonderful, Biblical goals (See Psalm 73:28 and Philippians 3:8-11). However, we must carefully choose the right means by which we seek a relationship with God. Oakland continues, “Rather than having an indwelling of the person of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, spiritual formation through spiritual disciplines supposedly transforms the seeker by entering an altered realm of consciousness.”i

Lighthouse Trails calls spiritual formation a “channel through which contemplative prayer is entering the church.”ii

Spiritual formation, then, can be seen as a way of seeking a relationship with God and a transformed inner self through the practice of spiritual—and often mystical—disciplines. Unfortunately, many earnest Christians and Christian leaders are entering into a spiritualistic lifestyle without even realizing it. Their desire to draw near to God is leading them to mystic and even occult rituals hidden among godly practices.

http://amazingdiscoveries.org/S-deception_Spiritual_Formation_movement_Oakland

Monday, October 25, 2010What is Spiritual Formation?

Posted by Christine Pack

Roman Catholic mystic Thomas Merton once compared Contemplative Spirituality Mysticism (CSM) to the same powerful experience generated by mind-altering drugs. Now, you might be wondering why the opinion of a deceased Roman Catholic mystic on an obscure sounding practice should matter to us today. It is for this reason: Contemplative Spirituality Mysticism is literally flooding into today's churches through something called "Spiritual Formation." Spiritual Formation, for those who've never heard of it, is being promoted in many of today's evangelical churches as a way for Christians to draw closer to God. Christian leaders who are teaching or promoting Christian mysticism, know that the word "mysticism" has a negative, eastern connotation, and try to draw a distinction between "bad" mysticism and "good" mysticism. Obviously, to those pleading this case, "bad" mysticism would be occultic, and eastern in origin. But "good" mysticism (like Spiritual Formation, say its proponents) would be a type of mysticism that is Christian, biblical, and necessary for spiritual development.

http://solasisters.blogspot.com/2010/10/what-is-spiritual-formation.html

[Reddogs]

There is even a facebook page....

http://www.facebook.com/events/208325265908521/

Check out what it says....

'From John the Evangelist and Paul the Apostle to Thomas Merton and Evelyn Underhill, Christianity has been blessed by a variety of men and women, clergy and laypersons, Catholics and Protestants, known as mystics — persons who have had profound and life-changing experiences of the presence of God, and even of union with God. But do the great mystics have anything to say to us today?

This program will introduce you to some of the greatest Christian mystics, from well-known figures like Francis of Assisi and Julian of Norwich to lesser known (but important) individuals like John Cassian and Jan Ruusbroec. We’ll look at some of their key writings, reflect on the major themes and principles of Christian mysticism, explore how their teachings on prayer can be applied in our lives today, and discuss how we can apply their wisdom to Christian discipleship here in the third millennium. Our schedule will include presentations, small group discussion, shared silence and prayer, and time for journaling and personal reflection.'

[Gerr]

I haven't heard "boo" in church about spiritual formation. But I've heard a number of negative things

about it in Amazing Discovery channel. From what I've heard, no dissent is allowed. The spiritual director pretty much is in control. If this is true, that alone would make me very wary.

[Reddogs]

I haven't heard "boo" in church about spiritual formation. But I've heard a number of negative things

about it in Amazing Discovery channel. From what I've heard, no dissent is allowed. The spiritual director pretty much is in control. If this is true, that alone would make me very wary.

Well they are taking over Adventist churches in Puerto Rico, South America, as well as all the conferences in the US, just from people who have told me directly to say nothing of what I am seeing on other forums..

[M. T. Cross]

How exactly would you define a mystic?

[Reddogs]

How exactly would you define a mystic?

Well this gives a general idea..Mysticism is the pursuit of communion with, identity with, or conscious awareness of an ultimate reality, divinity, spiritual truth, or God through direct experience, intuition, instinct or insight. Mysticism usually centers on practices intended to nurture those experiences. Mysticism may be dualistic, maintaining a distinction between the self and the divine, or may be nondualistic.[1]

Such pursuit has long been an integral part of the religious life of humanity. Within established religion it has been explicitly expressed within monasticism, where rules governing the everyday life of monks and nuns provide a framework conducive to the cultivation of mystical states of consciousness

[Reddogs]

Here is a good video to check out...

http://amazingdiscoveries.tv/media/1090/652-deceptions-in-spiritual-formation/

[Reddogs]

They are taking over the churches by ignoring or setting aside the church manual and putting in what and who they want to run their methods, and throwing out anyone who gets in their way or tries to protest. They take out all the elders and teachers who try to stop their agenda of Spiritual Formation. Anyone who rejects the Spiritual Formation and Spiritual model they bring in is either accused of 'apostasy' and being 'against the church' or being a trouble maker, stirring up a rebellious spirit. Some are told not to speak of what is happening or are rebuked telling them by their 'dissent' they are causing 'others to fall' or 'stumble' and keeping away potential converts. Here is what a friend who lives near us wrote on his church (I blanked out the names).....I don't know what church *** is from, but I know that can happen. It happened to the church my wife and I were forced out of. Gradually. One Wednesday night, we were called to the church for a special meeting. There were five chairs on the platform with five people from other churches setting there. The 'pastor' told us that " This is the "NEW" steering committee for the church. Any questions?" My hand went up and I ask, "Who elected them?" "Sit down, ***" was the answer. We were then left without a church...

[M. T. Cross]

Well this gives a general idea..Mysticism is the pursuit of communion with, identity with, or conscious awareness of an ultimate reality, divinity, spiritual truth, or God through direct experience, intuition, instinct or insight. Mysticism usually centers on practices intended to nurture those experiences. Mysticism may be dualistic, maintaining a distinction between the self and the divine, or may be nondualistic.[1]

Such pursuit has long been an integral part of the religious life of humanity. Within established religion it has been explicitly expressed within monasticism, where rules governing the everyday life of monks and nuns provide a framework conducive to the cultivation of mystical states of consciousness

So would you consider trance like states in which one may have super human strength, go hours without blinking or breathing, being totally unaware of the environment around them as mysticism?

[debbym]

Quote:

So would you consider trance like states in which one may have super human strength, go hours without blinking or breathing, being totally unaware of the environment around them as mysticism?

no i would not.

supernatural is not mysticism.

Mysticism is more like induced euphoria, induced trance states, rituals used to induce altered religious states.

channeling God is mysticism.

the occult stuff is in this category of mysticism when it's techniques are used in the context of connecting to the divine.

when you have a form or ritual and create an altered state connecting to the divine presence using techniques, when you can summon the presence of God by a form of worship that is mysticism.

Using mantra's, repetition, fasting in conjunction with these kinds of forms...

catholics are very strong in use of religious objects to connect them to an experience of the divine. also extended repetitious prayers, and meditations to get to altered states of consciousness to reach a god awareness, this is christian mysticism.

there is Sufi which is muslim mysticism, and many religions that have a system or a form the results in experiencing the divine presence. I had a friend who was in this Islamic sect, very disciplined and fasting and powerful religious experiences.

[Planey]

So would you consider trance like states in which one may have super human strength, go hours without blinking or breathing, being totally unaware of the environment around them as mysticism?

You mean like Ellen White in vision?

Graeme

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

A few years ago, Derek J. Morris, then Professor of Homiletics and Pastoral Theology at Southern College of Seventh-day Adventists, (more recently a pastor in California) gave a talk and produced a paper calling for Spiritual Formation in Adventism. Its title is “Spiritual Formation in Ministry.

Derek J. Morris, who are you talking about?

Are you talking about the Derek J. Morris who recently was the pastor of the Apopka, Florida SDA Church?

Or, are you talking about the Dr. Derek J. Morris from San Diego, California?

Ah, this is a great mystery what needs to be resolved. How can we do that?

Well, both have their photograph posted on the Internet. The former pastor of the Apopka, Florida SDA Church is a Caucasian. The good doctor from San Diego is clearly of another racial background. That just might be a clue?

Ah, I know! The former pastor of the Florida SDA Church is on Hope TV. The guy from San Diego is not! Mystery is solved.

Or, perhaps are your talking about the Derek J. Morris who wrote the book The Economic System in the United Kingdom?

Now another mystery has developed: Are the rest of your statements any more accurate than your one about him being a recent pastor of a California congregation?

By the way, your comment at the beginning of this thread is largely a "paste" from:

http://www.danielrevelationbiblestudies.com/020820062.htm

Do you agree with everything else that was posted on that URL?

By the way, Derek J. Morris, the SDA, is currently the Editor of the SDA publication, MINISTRY.

If you want to read more of his writings, you might want to read an editorial where he calls upon us to surrender, see:

https://www.ministrymagazine.org/blog/2013/03/20/surrender-but-never-give-up/

[Reddogs]

The information said that Derek Morris was a pastor now in California, but wasn't too clear.

Now we see that the President of the GC says the following, "Don't reach out to movements or megachurch centers outside the Seventh-day Adventist Church which promise you spiritual success based on faulty theology. Stay away from non-biblical spiritual disciplines or methods of spiritual formation that are rooted in mysticism such as contemplative prayer, centering prayer, and the emerging church movement in which they are promoted."

One of the driving force behind these megachurches and movements is Willow Creek. Here is what I came across on Willow Creek:

It was founded on October 12, 1975 by Bill Hybels, who is currently the senior pastor. The church has three weekend services averaging 24,000 attendees, making it the third-largest church in the United States (this ranking includes multi-site churches).The church has been listed as the most influential church in America the last several years in a national poll of pastors.

..from Adventist Today:

'In the last 15 years or so, New Spirituality (or "emerging church, "spiritual formation," etc.) by whatever name its followers choose, has flooded Protestantism, especially Evangelical churches. In the last 5-7 years, the waves have been rolling over many in the Adventist Church.

We all know well how, for the last 25 years, ministerial excitement and tons of Adventist money has focused on Willow Creek in Barrington, IL, and Saddleback in Lake Forest, CA. Enormous numbers of Protestant pastors studied how to invigorate their churches with the seeker-friendly methods.

"Adventists, both pastors and laypeople, consistently make up one of the largest groups at Willow Creek's half-dozen annual seminars—including church leadership conferences in May and October and a leadership summit in August."—Adventist Review, Dec. 18, 1997.'

...from Spectrum:

'This is the Willow Creek Community Church in Chicago which is an evangelical association that runs workshops, conferences, and seminars and Adventists, both pastors and laypeople, consistently make up one of the largest groups at Willow Creek's seminars.'

"The Year of SDA Congregationalism" (PDF). 26 (4): 3–10. ISSN 0890-0264. http://spectrummagazine.org/files/archive/archive26-30/26-4byrd.pdf.

...from Adventist members and minitries:

The guru of this movement is Bill Hybel who for decades having been preaching to throw out everything you have previously thought and been taught about church growth and replace it with a new paradigm, a new way to do ministry, techniques to foster mere numeric growth. You may be surprised to learn that his mega-church has trained large numbers of our leaders and pastors in Willow Creek techniques of increasing church growth by spiritual formation and 'church growth' techniques, more "popular" music, and celebration-style activities during church service.

http://www.sdadefend.com/Books-new-order/Connections.htm

"Mystical spiritual formation practices are being taught not only in retreat centers and monasteries, but in evangelical Christian churches as well. Willow Creek Community Church in Illinois and Saddleback Church in California are two of the forerunners in evangelical spiritual formation teaching."

http://rekindlingthereformation.com/S-deception_Spiritual_Formation_American_Willow-Creek.html

....I am alarmed at the interest of God’s people in something called the “Emerging Church” and “spiritual formation.” What I am going to show you about it today should alarm you too. The Emerging Church movement is being promoted by megachurches such as those run by Rick Warren, of Purpose-Driven fame, Bill Hybels of Willow Creek, and many others.

The concepts are also entering the remnant Church through spiritual formation. And it is promoted by some of the most popular and respected preachers alive today. Their names are no doubt very familiar to you because you have probably heard of them in one way or another.

You have probably heard the old saying, “things aren’t what they seem.” That is also the case with the Emerging Church and spiritual formation. There are many nice-sounding terms that are used to make you believe that this is all Biblical and right.

The term “Emerging Church” or “emergent teachers” is used to describe this movement. “Contemplative prayer,” “meditation,” “discipling,” “discipleship,” “spiritual discipline,” “ancient-future worship,” “vintage worship,” “future church,” and many other similar phrases are also terms used in connection with the Emergent Church and spiritual formation. Some even disguise the whole thing by naming programs in spiritual formation with bland and generic terms like “growing in Christ.”

These seemingly wonderful concepts are very alluring to the uninformed and unaware. And while you may not hear all these words if the Emerging Church or spiritual formation movement comes to your church, you will certainly be introduced to the concepts behind them.

While words like disciple, meditation, and spiritual discipline have a true meaning, these words are being redefined and reintroduced into the Church with an entirely different meaning. Most people who hear them are not alarmed because many of these words are used in the Bible or the Spirit of Prophecy and they have heard them for years. Moreover, when these new concepts are promoted, they use many of the old terms that everyone is familiar with as a bridge into the new concepts.

Spiritual formation teachers promote something that is very familiar to anyone that understands the ecumenical movement that the Roman Catholic Church has promoted since the 1960s. Emerging Church leaders say that doctrine is not as important as your experience with Christ.

While we must have a daily experience with Christ, what they really mean is that doctrine is not important at all, and that we should not worry about, or discuss it.

Emerging Church leaders want all religions to blend together, and they are working with Rome to accomplish it. The trouble is that doctrine comes from Christ. And doctrine comes with Christ. If you remove the doctrines, you don’t have Christ. If you don’t believe Jesus’ teachings, or the teachings of those prophets through whom He spoke, you can’t say that you have a true relationship with Jesus.

The idea today is that we are to just accept everyone as part of Christ’s body no matter what they believe, and as we experience Christ together, doctrine will be less and less important. Today, evangelicals, formerly known as Protestants, are deeply involved in the ecumenical movement, which is designed to bring them back into unity with the Roman Catholic Church. This is also leading them into a “new spirituality” which is really just old Roman Catholic mystical spiritualism.'

http://amazingdiscoveries.org/AD-Magazine-Archive-Summer-2011-Spiritual-Formation

...Recently, Willow Creek published the results of their 2004 congregational survey entitled, Reveal: Where are You? The surprising results required the study’s authors, including executive pastor Greg Hawkins, to tell senior pastor Bill Hybel that “the church isn’t as effective as we’d thought.” In the Forward to the report, Bill Hybels makes an astonishing [and I think humble] admission, “…parts of the research did not shine brightly on our church. Among the findings, nearly one out of every four people at Willow Creek were stalled in their spiritual growth or dissatisfied with the church—and many of them were considering leaving.”

In the report, Willow Creek acknowledges that they have long-employed the “The Church Activity Model for Spiritual Growth.” Essentially, the premise was that as “a person far from God participates in church activities” they will eventually become “a person who loves God and loves others.” Now, this could mean any activity--whether it be directing traffic in the parking lot or volunteering in the nursery. I call this the “faith by osmosis” approach—the idea that as long as people are in the church environment, they will grow spiritually.

To their credit, Willow Creek asks and answers the question as follows: “Does increased attendance in ministry programs automatically equate to spiritual growth? To be brutally honest: it does not. …Church activity alone made no direct impact on growing the heart…”

http://www.adventistreview.org/article/1513/archives/issue-2007-1533/willow-creek-s-confession

[debbym]

Quote:

Derek J. Morris, who are you talking about?

Are you talking about the Derek J. Morris who recently was the pastor of the Apopka, Florida SDA Church?

i believe it is from pastor derek morris, who wrote the book the radical prayer.

he participated in a panel on spiritual formation on 3 abn and mark finly was also on that panel among others.

pastor derek morris acknowledged that he had an experience in believing in this stuff, and then realized it was wrong and turned from it completely. in fact his experience and comments about it lend great credibility to the argument that it is wrong, it is harmful to true spirituality, and it is an issue for the sda people to deal with.

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Ozl_sUM9djI?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ozl_sUM9djI

unfortunately it seems to be an issue that the fearful in the church seem to get a hold of and freak out about rather then deal with it from a position in trust in God and peace.

derek morris's former comments may still be found but it is clear he does not hold this position at this time, as some still believe.

[Reddogs]

So lets look closer at what this is all about, where these techniques and disciplines come from.The ecumenical movement which the Roman Catholic church is behind is based on the principles of syncretism unity in diversity instead of unity in God’s one truth.When the Catholic blueprint for false ecumenism appears in Adventist churches, we need to become aware. The 'Emerging Church' movement is one such vehicle.

The emerging/emergent church movement is hard to pin down but is a label used to describe spiritual, so called revival practices being implemented across the spectrum of churches. But if you look you see they are using forms of mystical worship and spiritual disciplines which we have seen before. We find that Ignatius Loyola wrote extensively on these mystical practices of contemplative/centering prayer and spiritual formation and brought it as a tool to use in the Counter Reformation.

In how Ignatius Loyola taught it, spiritual formation was a methodology for using a spiritual director to guide you in your spiritual disciplines. The guide, because they are on a higher level of spirituality, is not to be questioned but followed. At the journeys start the practices have different names, they come in packages that emphasizes the attractiveness of the good things it promises. But where does it take you, what is the end result.

The true Biblical teaching of spiritual growth is one of reasoning, thinking, Bible study and prayer, led by the Holy Spirit. Line upon line, precept upon precept, not on control techniques and disciplines taught by man. We need to look closely at what is being brought into the Adventist church.

I also came across a book recommended to me which everyone should read its called 'The Omega Rebellion' by SDA retired pastor Rick Howard . It speaks directly to the spiritual formation, contemplative prayer, and the emergent church and how they relate to each other. Those Christians who were once involved in the New Age movement and or the Occult are very attuned to these issues because the are uniquely qualified to recognize it for what it is. Rick Howard is among this group of former New Agers. He shows how contemplative prayer is the same as the transcendental meditation just with a changed name.Here is one Ellen White quote the author used when the Adventist church was facing the same heresies a hundred years ago when they were going through the Kellogg debacle.

" We need not the mysticism that is in this book (Kellogg's book). Those who entertain these sophistries will soon find themselves in a position where the enemy can talk to them, and lead them away from God."

The book speaks about the Seventh day Adventist Church and the efforts, that Satan applies in order to replace the pillars of Adventism which Adventists believe with so called new spirituality. Because Rick Howard personally studied and practiced a number of mystical teachings while he wasn't a Christian yet, so in this book he can speak on the subject with authority.

Spiritual formation, contemplative prayer, "lectio divina" and all other teachings and techniques, used for implementing this new spirituality into the ranks of seventh day Adventist, according to the author, are nothing else but modification of the ancient occult practices.

Now look closely at who supported the 'Alpha' deception when John Kellogg came out with his book which cause the start of it in the church.

"I was forbidden to talk with Dr. Kellogg on this subject, because it is not a subject to be talked about. And I was instructed that certain sentiments in Living Temple were the Alpha of a long list of deceptive theories. {1SAT 343.4}

These sentiments have had an effect on our people everywhere. ... Years ago I did not think that they would meet these errors right in the Sanitarium; but when Living Temple came out, and some of our ministers told me that there was in it nothing but what I had been teaching all my life, I saw how great the danger was. I saw that blindness had fallen upon some who had long known the truth. I pray that the Lord will open the eyes of these ministers, that they may see the differences between light and darkness, and between truth and error. {1SAT 343.5}

Note closely- Ministers telling Ellen White that the apostasy that she is correcting, is the very thing that she has been teaching. If the Omega Apostasy is worse than the Alpha, would that impact again the ministers just as in the time of Ellen White, and with no one to withstand them with the authority she had, how do we respond.

[Gregory Matthews]

You said:

Quote:

The information said that Derek Morris was a pastor now in California, but wasn't too clear.

The following is from the website that I cited:

Quote:

A few years ago, Derek J. Morris, then Professor of Homiletics and Pastoral Theology at Southern College of Seventh-day Adventists, (more recently a pastor in California) gave a talk and produced a paper calling for Spiritual Formation in Adventism. Its title is “Spiritual Formation in Ministry.”

Here is what you said at the beginning of this thread:

Quote:

A few years ago, Derek J. Morris, then Professor of Homiletics and Pastoral Theology at Southern College of Seventh-day Adventists, (more recently a pastor in California) gave a talk and produced a paper calling for Spiritual Formation in Adventism. Its title is “Spiritual Formation in Ministry.

It certainly looks to me like you copied from that website. I Do not see a lack of clarity about Morris being a California pastor. Both say that he was "more recently a pastor in California." Neither says that he was now a pastor in California.

NOTE: In the comment that I have quoted above, you do not actually say that Morris was a California pastor. You simply say that he was a pastor now [located--implied] in California.

Most people would understand my 2nd citation from you as saying that he was a pastor of a California congregation. In any case, I believe that I have established the source of your beginning comments.

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

pastor derek morris acknowledged that he had an experience in believing in this stuff, and then realized it was wrong and turned from it completely. in fact his experience and comments about it lend great credibility to the argument that it is wrong, it is harmful to true spirituality, and it is an issue for the sda people to deal with.

This has been well reported about Morris.

My questions: Why did Reddogs not mention this? If he/she was aware of this change in position by Morris, that should have been mentioned in the beginning post. Intellectual honesty requires such.

If on the other hand, Reddogs was not aware of that change in position by Morris, that lack of knowledge calls into question the accuracy of other statements that he/she made.

Take your pick.

The thrust of my comments has not been to defend Spiritual formation. They have simply been to call into question the comments that were made. There seems to me to be a lack of accuracy that potentially affects the entire beginning statement.

If in a trial in civil court a witness testifies what she saw John smith do in Modesto, California, on January 2, 2012 and it is proven that on January 2, 2012, at the time cited, John Smith was in Denver, Colorado, the whole statement of the witness is probably thrown out as unreliable.

Yes, for some of you experts in the law, I can think of unlikely exceptions. :)

[Reddogs]

You said:

Quote:

The information said that Derek Morris was a pastor now in California, but wasn't too clear.

The following is from the website that I cited:

Quote:

A few years ago, Derek J. Morris, then Professor of Homiletics and Pastoral Theology at Southern College of Seventh-day Adventists, (more recently a pastor in California) gave a talk and produced a paper calling for Spiritual Formation in Adventism. Its title is “Spiritual Formation in Ministry.”

Here is what you said at the beginning of this thread:

Quote:

A few years ago, Derek J. Morris, then Professor of Homiletics and Pastoral Theology at Southern College of Seventh-day Adventists, (more recently a pastor in California) gave a talk and produced a paper calling for Spiritual Formation in Adventism. Its title is “Spiritual Formation in Ministry.

It certainly looks to me like you copied from that website. I Do not see a lack of clarity about Morris being a California pastor. Both say that he was "more recently a pastor in California." Neither says that he was now a pastor in California.

NOTE: In the comment that I have quoted above, you do not actually say that Morris was a California pastor. You simply say that he was a pastor now [located--implied] in California.

Most people would understand my 2nd citation from you as saying that he was a pastor of a California congregation. In any case, I believe that I have established the source of your beginning comments.

Did you not see the link...

Derek writes, “For much of the Christian era the practice of spiritual direction was confined to Catholicism, particularly monasticism and the Society of Jesus [the Jesuits]. In recent years, there has been a revival of interest in spiritual direction as a resource for spiritual formation among both Catholics and Protestants. A leading Protestant advocate of spiritual formation is Tilden Edwards, director of the Shalem Institute for Spiritual Formation in Washington, D.C. [CC note: Adventist Chaplaincy Ministries is promoting the Shalem Institute as the leading place for studying to become a Spiritual Director. Shalem is staffed with Roman Catholic nuns who are experts in the Spiritual Exercises of Ignatius Loyola,founder of the Jesuits, with Episcopal priests, psychiatrists, etc.] As I began my own prayer search for a spiritual friend, I came across the significant work by Tilden Edwards, Spiritual Friend: Reclaiming the Gift of Spiritual Direction. I [Derek Morris] strongly recommend this book as a valuable resource….

http://endrtimes.blogspot.com/2011/01/gc-imposes-spiritual-formation-globally.html

[Reddogs]

Quote:

pastor derek morris acknowledged that he had an experience in believing in this stuff, and then realized it was wrong and turned from it completely. in fact his experience and comments about it lend great credibility to the argument that it is wrong, it is harmful to true spirituality, and it is an issue for the sda people to deal with.

This has been well reported about Morris.

My questions: Why did Reddogs not mention this? If he/she was aware of this change in position by Morris, that should have been mentioned in the beginning post. Intellectual honesty requires such.

If on the other hand, Reddogs was not aware of that change in position by Morris, that lack of knowledge calls into question the accuracy of other statements that he/she made.

Take your pick.

The thrust of my comments has not been to defend Spiritual formation. They have simply been to call into question the comments that were made. There seems to me to be a lack of accuracy that potentially affects the entire beginning statement.

If in a trial in civil court a witness testifies what she saw John smith do in Modesto, California, on January 2, 2012 and it is proven that on January 2, 2012, at the time cited, John Smith was in Denver, Colorado, the whole statement of the witness is probably thrown out as unreliable.

Yes, for some of you experts in the law, I can think of unlikely exceptions.

Hey I just came across this, church members are telling me and sending me information so I was just asking what to see what others here have seen or heard.

[Reddogs]

Here is a video that I was emailed which everyone should take a look at...

SDA Pres. Ted Wilson Warns against spiritual formation Oakwood Student Confirms SPIRITUAL FORMATION

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQNZqV34WBY

[olger]

Quote:

Derek J. Morris, who are you talking about?

Are you talking about the Derek J. Morris who recently was the pastor of the Apopka, Florida SDA Church?

i believe it is from pastor derek morris, who wrote the book the radical prayer.

he participated in a panel on spiritual formation on 3 abn and mark finly was also on that panel among others.

pastor derek morris acknowledged that he had an experience in believing in this stuff, and then realized it was wrong and turned from it completely. in fact his experience and comments about it lend great credibility to the argument that it is wrong, it is harmful to true spirituality, and it is an issue for the sda people to deal with.

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Ozl_sUM9djI?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ozl_sUM9djI

unfortunately it seems to be an issue that the fearful in the church seem to get a hold of and freak out about rather then deal with it from a position in trust in God and peace.

derek morris's former comments may still be found but it is clear he does not hold this position at this time, as some still believe.

Correct Deb.

Aaron Muth put together a video warning people of SF. Derek Morris participated in it, and repudiated any involvement he formerly had with SF.

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

Hey I just came across this, church members are telling me and sending me information so I was just asking what to see what others here have seen or heard.

Excuses, excuses!

One cannot believe everything that one hears from church members.

When you posted as you did, you posted it as fact. When one posts such as fact, one has an ethical responsibility related to the factual content of the post. When it is well known that Morris has changed his mind, there is a responsibility to report that, or at least to determine if it is accurate. There are a number of ways that you could have done so.

As one example, you could have contacted Morris and said: I understand that you advocate Spiritual Formation. I have given it some consideration and I have some concerns about it. I wonder if it is accurate that you adavocate it and how would you advise me.

You will note that the above is brief and does not accuse him of anything.

If you are aware of the history of my posts in this forum and in others, you know that I often contact people directly and ask for a response as I have listed above. I do not get a response 100% of the time. But, it is probably above 90%. SDA leaders are willing to respond to honest questions that are brief, to the point and do not accuse.

Most of them do not have the time to respond to questions that are convoluted, accuse in detail, polemical and appear to have an agenda rather than seeking information. Such people do not appear to be seeking truth. Your post clearly comes accross as polemical. Such is unlikely to get a response.

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

Hey I just came across this, church members are telling me and sending me information so I was just asking what to see what others here have seen or heard.

Why do we seem to have a need to believe the worst about someone?

NOTE: I am asking this of myself as well as people in general.

[olger]

Randal Wisbey is a big participant in, and fan of, SF.

Randal's bio:

"Before his work as a college president, Dr. Wisbey served for seven years as associate professor of youth ministry at the Seventh-day Adventist Theological Seminary at Andrews University in Berrien Springs, Michigan. He also developed and championed the new Master of Arts in Youth Ministry program at the seminary. His primary areas of interest and academic expertise include youth and young adult ministry, generational studies, contemporary youth culture and the opportunities provided for transformational ministry within the culture, and personal and corporate spiritual formation.

"transformational ministry" is emergent church nomenclature. "Personal and corporate spiritual formation" means not only does he participate personally in SF, he has a goal to export it to young people through the medium of LSU.

G