Are you a Pacifist?

[Sojourner]

I have yet another question, this time on Pacifism.

I was told that the reason that the Seventh Day Adventist Reform Movement exists is because they believed the SDA to not be Pacifist in the way that they thought the denomination should be and split off over it. I don't know much more than that, yet realize that its probably an issue that some SDA people may feel strongly about.

I wanted to pose to you the following question and ask you for your response as to what you would do in this situation. Please feel welcome to expand on your answer below.

You are at home with your family one night and there is a knock to the door. You go to answer the door and there is a man there who you do not know, you ask the man what he wants and he replies that he is there to rape your wife and 13 year old daughter. He then begins to kick in your front door and you are aware that it wont be long and he will be inside your family home.

Do you,

A, Take and load a firearm and when the man enters your home, shoot him dead.

B, Take a firearm and threaten the man with it.

C, You don't own a firearm, But you are prepared to use another weapon such as a baseball bat or hockey stick in the event of the man entering your home.

D, Yell for your wife and daughter to lock themselves in another room and to call the police whilst you take the man on in a physical confrontation until the police can get there.

E, Do nothing

F, Try to reason with the man and hope for the best.

G, Open the door and allow the man in.

H, Refuse to call the police because they have guns and you recognize that they will no doubt use force to control the situation and that is against your pacifist beliefs.

O, Other.

[olger]

I don't know what I would do, and you don't either.

[Johann]

I don't know what I would do, and you don't either.

A mature decision?

[Textus Receptus]

Scripture provides us an example of what we should do in Mathew 26:51-52

"And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."

That said, I frankly don't know what I would do. Yet, I pray that God provides me the ability to do His will in all that I do and that my character be His.

[cricket]

There is another example in the Bible. See Judges 19.

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

I was told that the reason that the Seventh Day Adventist Reform Movement exists is because they believed the SDA to not be Pacifist in the way that they thought the denomination should be and split off over it. I don't know much more than that, yet realize that its probably an issue that some SDA people may feel strongly about.

It is much more complicated than that.

The truth of the matter, in brief, is that there was sin on both sides--certain denominational leadersin Germany and the people who became the Reform Movement.

Academic SDA historians are beginning to get a picture of the actual events. However, it is probable that the full picture of the events that took place is not yet known.

With that in mind, I simply have to say that there was sin on both sides.

[Gregory Matthews]

The SDA Chruch is not Pacifist.

I have spent 20+ years in the U.S. Army formally registered as a Conscinetious Objector who neither trained with nor carried weapons. But, I was never a Pacifist.

[Ted Oplinger]

I have yet another question, this time on Pacifism.

I was told that the reason that the Seventh Day Adventist Reform Movement exists is because they believed the SDA to not be Pacifist in the way that they thought the denomination should be and split off over it. I don't know much more than that, yet realize that its probably an issue that some SDA people may feel strongly about.

I wanted to pose to you the following question and ask you for your response as to what you would do in this situation. Please feel welcome to expand on your answer below.

You are at home with your family one night and there is a knock to the door. You go to answer the door and there is a man there who you do not know, you ask the man what he wants and he replies that he is there to rape your wife and 13 year old daughter. He then begins to kick in your front door and you are aware that it wont be long and he will be inside your family home.

Do you,

A, Take and load a firearm and when the man enters your home, shoot him dead.

B, Take a firearm and threaten the man with it.

C, You don't own a firearm, But you are prepared to use another weapon such as a baseball bat or hockey stick in the event of the man entering your home.

D, Yell for your wife and daughter to lock themselves in another room and to call the police whilst you take the man on in a physical confrontation until the police can get there.

E, Do nothing

F, Try to reason with the man and hope for the best.

G, Open the door and allow the man in.

H, Refuse to call the police because they have guns and you recognize that they will no doubt use force to control the situation and that is against your pacifist beliefs.

O, Other.

Sojourner, you speak of a VERY unrealistic scenario.

First, criminals simply do not knock on the door and announce their intent. They break in when they think you are either away, or are most vulnerable and unable to defend yourself.

Second, despite the bravado, most people do not know how they are going to respond when the break-in occurs. Most never give it a second thought that one's mind under stress will not think correctly, unless one has trained their mind to think in a specific way under that type of stress. So, unless someone has already rehearsed within their mind and body the specific reaction, the response is going to be a combination of things. For many people, they simply freeze mentally, as they just cannot believe the crime is REALLY happening to them at that time - it is too surreal of a moment.

There are a lot of variables coming into play - how far the criminal was able to get into the house prior to you're becoming aware of their presence, whether they are armed, achieved a measure of surprise, levels of light, entry of other family members due to the commotion of the incident. It isn't a cut and dried proposition.

As for choice D...I call that the pacifist's "dial a prayer", because when seconds count, the police are just minutes away. Likewise, when the police get there, they are under no obligation to stop the crime in progress - most people do not realize this was mandated by the SCOTUS decades ago.

Likewise, the country and culture one is in may greatly limit your options.

In Great Britain, for example, self-defense of person and property is a prosecutable crime. People are told to retreat, if possible, or told to allow the criminal his way. In Islamic countries, rape is all but a crime - a woman who is raped and reports it to police is likely to be in court facing an adultery charge.

Rethink your scenario a bit.

Blessings,

[Textus Receptus]

The SDA Chruch is not Pacifist.

I have spent 20+ years in the U.S. Army formally registered as a Conscinetious Objector who neither trained with nor carried weapons. But, I was never a Pacifist.

Then, why register as a Conscientious Objector? It's a heart issue not one of registration. The Jews wanted the Romans to crucify Jesus as it was against their laws, they were just as guilty of his death.

I never understood why anyone would join the military as a member of the SDA church. Frankly, if the SDA church has taught me anything, it is that I am not a citizen of this world, or atleast we shouldn't be. I a sojourner awaiting to arrive at my destination-heaven. Will you defend the Second Beast of Revelation (AKA the United Stats of America)just right up to onset of the Persecution? Yep, I know how this game will end, I refuse to play.

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

Then, why register as a Conscientious Objector? It's a heart issue not one of registration. The Jews wanted the Romans to crucify Jesus as it was against their laws, they were just as guilty of his death.

There is a large difference between being a Padifist and a Conscientious Objector. They are not the same.

By registering as a Conscientious Objector, I was not req uired ot either train with or carry a weapon. That is where I was. It may not be you. It was me.

Quote:

I never understood why anyone would join the military as a member of the SDA church.

I am only speaking for me: God has placed people in the world. God does not ask us, in this life, to escape the world.

By the way I was a chaplain.

Would you suggest that SDA clergy should not be in the millitary?

As such I helped people to live their sincere convictions.

I helped them to get Sabbath off. In some cases I helped people to get honorable discharges due to conflicts with their religious convictions.

In some cases I actually kept people form going to prison.

[joeb]

Originally Posted By: Gregory Matthews

The SDA Chruch is not Pacifist.

I have spent 20+ years in the U.S. Army formally registered as a Conscinetious Objector who neither trained with nor carried weapons. But, I was never a Pacifist.

Then, why register as a Conscientious Objector? It's a heart issue not one of registration. The Jews wanted the Romans to crucify Jesus as it was against their laws, they were just as guilty of his death.

I never understood why anyone would join the military as a member of the SDA church. Frankly, if the SDA church has taught me anything, it is that I am not a citizen of this world, or atleast we shouldn't be. I a sojourner awaiting to arrive at my destination-heaven. Will you defend the Second Beast of Revelation (AKA the United Stats of America)just right up to onset of the Persecution? Yep, I know how this game will end, I refuse to play.

So, your way of thinking is the only, infallible way of thinking? God doesn't work with each of us as individuals? He doesn't present things to us about the way He wants us to live in varying ways and at varying times in our lives?

You must think Abraham really sinned in rescuing Lot, despite his having obtained God's blessing before he started on his mission of warfare.

[phkrause]

Excellent response Gregory. I didn't join, but was drafted and went in as a CO. we as Adventist's as you say can do many things to help others in the military. I personally believe that all should serve there country in the military.

[phkrause]

So, your way of thinking is the only, infallible way of thinking? God doesn't work with each of us as individuals? He doesn't present things to us about the way He wants us to live in varying ways and at varying times in our lives?

You must think Abraham really sinned in rescuing Lot, despite his having obtained God's blessing before he started on his mission of warfare.

[Textus Receptus]

Quote:

Then, why register as a Conscientious Objector? It's a heart issue not one of registration. The Jews wanted the Romans to crucify Jesus as it was against their laws, they were just as guilty of his death.

There is a large difference between being a Padifist and a Conscientious Objector. They are not the same.

By registering as a Conscientious Objector, I was not req uired ot either train with or carry a weapon. That is where I was. It may not be you. It was me.

Quote:

I never understood why anyone would join the military as a member of the SDA church.

I am only speaking for me: God has placed people in the world. God does not ask us, in this life, to escape the world.

By the way I was a chaplain.

Would you suggest that SDA clergy should not be in the millitary?

As such I helped people to live their sincere convictions.

I helped them to get Sabbath off. In some cases I helped people to get honorable discharges due to conflicts with their religious convictions.

In some cases I actually kept people form going to prison.

Oh beg to differ. Scripture has made it abundantly clear that we should be removed from this world in spirit.

The Bible calls us to stay out of the world. Be in the world, but be not of the world.

And those who use this world, [use it] as though not absorbed by it and with indifference; for the present form of this world passes away. 1 Cor 7:31

I wrote to you in a letter not to keep company with those who are sexually immoral. But not with the immoral of this world, or with the covetous, or oppressive cheaters, or with idolaters; for then you would have to depart out of the world.

But now I write to you not to keep company with any man who calls himself a Christian and is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an oppressive cheater; do not even eat with such a person.

For while I have no business judging those who are outside the church, are you not supposed to judge those who are within the church? 1 Cor 5:9-12

Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go into a certain city and remain there a year, and buy and sell, and make a profit."

Yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. For what is your life? It is just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away.

Instead you should say, "If it is the Lord's will, we will live and do this or that." James 4:13-15

I do not pray that you should take them out of the world, but that you should protect them from the evil.

They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. John 17:15-16

I hardly believe that Christ would have us join the military to further the agendas of special interests which of course would include that of the Vaticans. Now, we only have to review U.S. history for the last 170 years to verify that this is so. The military can not be a force for God; especially that of a country who will use it's might to position itself as the image of the beast. If you want to serve God, than become a pastor. Leave the military to those who do not yet have the full understanding of God's plan of salvation and the voice of prophesy.

As for SDA clergy in the military, well that is a differnt matter altogether. God's voice needs to be heard in as many places as possible. Yet, I only state this with caution since even military clergy are under orders and command.

[Gregory Matthews]

I was writing as a chaplain.

I was not encouraging other SDAs, not-chaplalins, to join the military.

[joeb]

One of the greatest acts of witnessing for God, of having love for his fellow man, ever given by a SDA was given by Desmond Doss. He gave that witness as a member of the US military.

[Textus Receptus]

One of the greatest acts of witnessing for God, of having love for his fellow man, ever given by a SDA was given by Desmond Doss. He gave that witness as a member of the US military.

[Kevin H]

I like how Desmond Doss answered a similar question when he was asked about the break While I don't have the exact quote a close paraphrase would be "Let me be clear, this is my house they are breaking in to, and going to rape my wife and daughter. Well since it's my house I can't shoot them because I don't have a gun in my house. Second, while I would not kill them I'd make them wish that I'd kill them. I'm not anti violence, I just would not kill anyone."

[Kevin H]

After I graduated from Andrews, there were few, if any jobs for Bible teachers, and unemployment was incredibly high. I felt that I had no other choice but to go into the military. I was first a Chaplain Assistant in the Army, then re-enlisted as a psychiatric technician in the Air Force Reserves, which lead to a job in Loma Linda as a psychiatric technician. Since I was in the nursing field I became an RN and then got my commission first as a flight nurse then, mostly, as a psychiatric nurse with units that are somewhat like an airport for patients.

I am proud of my military service. In August I will have been in 27 years. Being in the Middle East, I helped to get the wounded and injured and ill out of the war zone from Desert Shield/Desert Storm. While sadly not in country in Iraq or Afghanistan, was in Germany meeting the plane loads of the freshly wounded, transported them to and from the local hospital and prepared them for their flights to Walter Reed.

I wish that I could go back in time. I would have joined the reserves as a psych tech right out of high school, have had a religion minor and major in either social work or psychology, then go active duty.

While I would not simply recommend any job in the military for Seventh-day Adventists, there are many jobs that I believe that we can do, especially in the chaplaincy and health care.

[Kevin H]

Originally Posted By: joeb

One of the greatest acts of witnessing for God, of having love for his fellow man, ever given by a SDA was given by Desmond Doss. He gave that witness as a member of the US military.

Apples and Oranges. Ok, this excludes ALL drafted millitary personnel. I will go futher, medics and clergy Obviously, those who are drafted had no choice.

Not quite Textus, true Doss was drafted, however he had a job in the ship building industry and seen as necessary to the war effort and thus had the freedom to be exempted from needing to serve. He choose not to take advantage of that offer.

[M. T. Cross]

Sojourner, I will answer this even though I am not an SDA, but I have run into a ton of people that think that pagans are all pacifists. I never look for a fight, never seek to hurt anyone. That said, if the highly unlikely situation that you described were to happen, they would be dead before they got through the door. I do not own a gun, but I am fairly well versed in the use of other weapons that I do own, and my family is above all things something I would protect.

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

So, your way of thinking is the only, infallible way of thinking? God doesn't work with each of us as individuals? He doesn't present things to us about the way He wants us to live in varying ways and at varying times in our lives?

You must think Abraham really sinned in rescuing Lot, despite his having obtained God's blessing before he started on his mission of warfare.

Please share with me what I might has said that would cause you to come to the above conclusions. AS I reject just about everything that you concluded, I need to learn how to communicate better.

[phkrause]

Please share with me what I might has said that would cause you to come to the above conclusions. AS I reject just about everything that you concluded, I need to learn how to communicate better.

Greg I think joeb is replying to TR not you, but I could be wrong?

[Textus Receptus]

Quote:

So, your way of thinking is the only, infallible way of thinking? God doesn't work with each of us as individuals? He doesn't present things to us about the way He wants us to live in varying ways and at varying times in our lives?

You must think Abraham really sinned in rescuing Lot, despite his having obtained God's blessing before he started on his mission of warfare.

Please share with me what I might has said that would cause you to come to the above conclusions. AS I reject just about everything that you concluded, I need to learn how to communicate better.

yes, he was directing his comments towards me. I didn't feel like providing a bible lesson as to why God allowed warfare in abraham's case. In short, it was because their cup of iniquity was full. Im tired of folks comparing apples to oranges.

[ClubV12]

Well said Textus, some questions and comments don't warrant an explanation. Not every question will be answered, not every obstacle to disbelief will be removed.

Thats why it's called "searching for truth", it's an individual quest.

I like Olgers response, "I don't know what I would do, and you don't either".